Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[BarstoolProphet]

If US continues to unconditionally support Israel while they genocide Gaza, I think there is a high chance that Middle East is gonna orient itself towards China. With Russia also becoming a satellite of China in near future, that could be the end of the Western supremacy.

China has huge economic interest in the region already and has been working behind the scenes on diplomatic relations with the Arab world for a while. ME is already a major energy supplier for China and rest of the major nations in Asia. Both the West and the East wants stability in the region, and Arab countries wants to play both sides. Israel is now being a thorn in the side for that vision, but the US and UK still can't help themselves but it's not exactly news to the region.

 

[Roane]

The alternative to supporting Hamas is to just accept the brutality. It's a tricky choice.

People continuously ask "What can Israel do?" The answer is literally anything they have the will to do.

Ask the same question of Palestine. The answer is much more limited. The idea that people choose to fight an army like Israel's from a position of such weakness is solely some sort of malevolence is absurd.

Replying to you because even when disagreeing you are pretty fair and balanced.

This what can Israel do is BS. There is no balance in the question. And no this isn't supporting Hamas.

We get statements like "they've vowed to wipe Israel off the map" but has anyone seen the "constitution" Israel works to? (I've put in "" as Israel doesn't have a constitution more a set of rules and/or aims).

 

[Revan]

China has huge economic interest in the region already and has been working behind the scenes on diplomatic relations with the Arab world for a while. ME is already a major energy supplier for China and rest of the major nations in Asia. Both the West and the East wants stability in the region, and Arab countries wants to play both sides. Israel is now being a thorn in the side for that vision, but the US and UK still can't help themselves but it's exactly news to the region.

Agree with this, especially with the bolded one.

 

[The Corinthian]

The difference between the IDF and Hamas is, one tries to keep civilian casualties as low as possible, while the other's goal is to kill as many civilians as possible.

If you don't see the difference, than I rest my case.

The IDF kill more civilians than Hamas.

 

[JPRouve]

The difference between the IDF and Hamas is, one tries to keep civilian casualties as low as possible, while the other's goal is to kill as many civilians as possible.

If you don't see the difference, than I rest my case.

When has that distinction ever been true? Or are we ignoring the yearly killing and injuring of palestinians by IDF or with the support of IDF?

 

[Roane]

The difference between the IDF and Hamas is, one tries to keep civilian casualties as low as possible, while the other's goal is to kill as many civilians as possible.

If you don't see the difference, than I rest my case.

That's clearly bullshit. It's the aim of the IDF courtesy of Israel's Knesset/rules/aims/constitution to take all.the land around them by any means necessary. Since 1948.

That aside my point was that if a percentage of people, 57% are "really not that innocent" then every baby born in Israel to Israelis is a legitimate target.

**This isn't what I believe I'm just responding to the absolutely batshit claim of "not that innocent" made earlier

 

[JPRouve]

If it is that poll, then he’s being misleading about what it says.

Case in point, before it ever gets to the part about “57% have at least a somewhat positive view of Hamas” it says this…

“In fact, Gazan frustration with Hamas governance is clear; most Gazans expressed a preference for PA administration and security officials over Hamas—the majority of Gazans (70%) supported a proposal of the PA sending “officials and security officers to Gaza to take over the administration there, with Hamas giving up separate armed units,” including 47% who strongly agreed. Nor is this a new view—this proposal has had majority support in Gaza since first polled by The Washington Institute in 2014”

I assume that it's the poll since it's the one with these figures but yeah the framing is misleading because Hamas are also the least supported group.

 

[ManUtd1999]

If it is that poll, then he’s being misleading about what it says.

Case in point, before it ever gets to the part about “57% have at least a somewhat positive view of Hamas” it says this…

“In fact, Gazan frustration with Hamas governance is clear; most Gazans expressed a preference for PA administration and security officials over Hamas—the majority of Gazans (70%) supported a proposal of the PA sending “officials and security officers to Gaza to take over the administration there, with Hamas giving up separate armed units,” including 47% who strongly agreed. Nor is this a new view—this proposal has had majority support in Gaza since first polled by The Washington Institute in 2014”

Agreed. My reading of this poll is that people in Gaza were not really that supportive of Hamas. The link contains numerous interesting figures. For example, 62% of Gazans wanted to maintain the ceasefire with Israel. In addition, the poll says: “half (50%) agreed with the following proposal: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.” “

 

[BarstoolProphet]

I think China is already on the charm offensive with the Arab states. They’re already facilitating conciliatory talks between Saudi and Iran, who I believe have spoken again regarding the Gaza conflict. Their messaging on this conflict specifically has been extremely balanced, and much fairer than what we’ve seen from the West. That will only endear them further to pro-Palestinian states.

This is true. China has been pro the two-state solution, rejected to condemn Hamas whilst also criticizing Israel. But it's worth noting that KSA wants to bring stability to the region for future prosperity but also because they want to emerge as a major geopolitical player, which means they wants to have relations with both China and the US and also best illustrated by the potential historic deal with Israel (which seems very much on the table still, despite the human tragedy currently unfolding on the Gaza Strip and the West Bank). Whilst the region is pro the Palestinian cause, many of them also kept their silence when Hamas launched the attack (apart from Qatar, who blamed it all on Israel) and has toned down the rhetoric in response to the Israel offensive, which is noteworthy. Don't forget China's issues with their Muslim minority either.

 

[That_Bloke]

No idea how you come to this conclusion.

The majority of the Gaza population (57% in polls) supports Hamas, a terrorist organisation. Thus, they aren't all that innocent.

Hamas is using civilians as shields so Israel will be condemned for killing innocent people when they go against the terrorists.
So what choices the IDF have? Either let Hamas get away with their terrorist attacks or go against them anyway and cause civilian losses.

The analogy of root cause and symptom can also be applied here. Hamas is the root of the issue, dead civilians is a symptom caused by Hamas actions.

You're having an absolute nightmare in this thread but this one takes the cake.

65% of the gazan population were either children or not even born when Hamas was elected in 2006 and there weren't election held ever since. Opponents were thrown off rooftops. There's also no way of knowing who these people would've voted for or how much support the Hamas actually has today.

Your knowledge about the situation there is utterly lacking, yet you keep on hammering half-truths mixed with common places heard here and there, and then make this frankly shocking statement.

Take a break.

 

[RedC]

Standard of this thread has gone through the floor today.

Weird phenomenon I found with the MG threads also that there is a period of time where the discussion is really very decent and genuine despite being a difficult topic/confrontational.

It seems like at a certain point in time the people who were discussing well find themselves so often in opposition with the same people that the slinging starts and the whole thing capitulates, not to mention some posters just landing in with absolutely awful takes yet acting quite aggressively, to absolutely nobodies gain.

A few really bad posters have entered the fray, up until now people at least seemed to try and learn something (for the most part) before commenting, or swiftly exited after being called out for nonsense.

 

[The Corinthian]

Some insight from an Israeli journal in the West Bank.

 

[Jippy]

Looks like Israel hired Theresa May's 'Go home' vans to put its propaganda war into overdrive in London.

 

[That_Bloke]

A few really bad posters have entered the fray, up until now people at least seemed to try and learn something (for the most part) before commenting, or swiftly exited after being called out for nonsense.

We've been inundated with Twitter posts meant as a "proof" for whichever side you're on. Anything goes and it's killing the discussion. Too few are taking the time to formulate and write their opinion down.

 

[Maticmaker]

You dare to raise a particular question about a current topic and you are met with a volley of responses like.... brainless and offensive.

It is a sad reflection of some of the peoples intellect that they are not able to read the original question and respond sensibly instead of negativity.

And to stress yet again, I do not agree with what Israel is doing in the West Bank. Don't know how many more times I have to say that.

You and I are from the same generation and know this situation has it's roots back in post WW2, with the desire of the Alliance to find a homeland for the Jewish people who had suffered terribly before and during that war. Like a lot things at the time, it was handled more with a sense of doing something quickly (in the moment )as we now say, rather than properly.
I doubt if many of the posters on here really want to engage in philosophical discussion of what went wrong, only who to blame.

 

[moses]

Replying to you because even when disagreeing you are pretty fair and balanced.

This what can Israel do is BS. There is no balance in the question. And no this isn't supporting Hamas.

We get statements like "they've vowed to wipe Israel off the map" but has anyone seen the "constitution" Israel works to? (I've put in "" as Israel doesn't have a constitution more a set of rules and/or aims).

On this, I fully agree with you.

 

[Sky1981]

Again you making assumptions I never expressed.
57% aren't murderous psychopaths but support a terror organization that is! So they aren't that innocent. Without the strong support the Hamas terrorist organisation gets within the population they couldn't do what they are doing.

If you support murderous regimes or organisations, then you shouldn't cry when the day of reckoning comes. As a German I know what I'm talking about.

Didn't Nazi won the election?

 

[The Corinthian]

More Israeli brutality in the WB.

 

[moses]

The difference between the IDF and Hamas is, one tries to keep civilian casualties as low as possible, while the other's goal is to kill as many civilians as possible.

Pretty much all stats say that's just not true.

 

[Darkhorsez]

Some insight from an Israeli journal in the West Bank.

Thank you for sharing. Very brave of this journalist - hope he comes to no harm.

 

[HTG]

We've been inundated with Twitter posts meant as a "proof" for whichever side you're on. Anything goes and it's killing the discussion. Too few are taking the time to formulate and write their opinion down.

It might already make a difference if people would at least take the time to write a few sentences about the sources they link. Because especially since Musk took over, it’s almost impossible for people without Twitter to assess the credibility of a source. And honestly, those still on there aren’t doing that good a job themselves. There’s just a lack of due diligence there.
In addition to this people who constantly post shitty sources should be banned. These last few days this thread couldn’t even be used as a news source due to this.

 

[Badunk]

I find it interesting that the biggest defenders of Israel in this thread aren't the Israeli posters.

 

[Darkhorsez]

I find it interesting that the biggest defenders of Israel in this thread aren't the Israeli posters.

I would say it is more indication of social media and media representation of events and it’s impact especially on younger people or people with little knowledge of the region and history. Focusing on a recent act as opposed to years of persecution and crimes.

 

[Raven]

The oppressor banning journalists and news organisations is never a good sign.

Here we go, let's see some defense of this latest indefensible act.

 

[Buster15]

You and I are from the same generation and know this situation has it's roots back in post WW2, with the desire of the Alliance to find a homeland for the Jewish people who had suffered terribly before and during that war. Like a lot things at the time, it was handled more with a sense of doing something quickly (in the moment )as we now say, rather than properly.
I doubt if many of the posters on here really want to engage in philosophical discussion of what went wrong, only who to blame.

You are right about the blame culture.
Just look back a day or so to the instant of the terrible hospital explosion at the almost instant tirade of posts blaming the IDF. Yet if you dared to offer anything different, the same agressive responses.

My earlier post about the West Bank was to question what was happening compared to history. Both recent and past.
But you will have seen some of the aggressive responses.

For this very important thread to mean anything, we ought to question.
Instead it just becomes the same type of sentiment repeated over and over again.

 

[moses]

You are right about the blame culture.
Just look back a day or so to the instant of the terrible hospital explosion at the almost instant tirade of posts blaming the IDF. Yet if you dared to offer anything different, the same agressive responses.

My earlier post about the West Bank was to question what was happening compared to history. Both recent and past.
But you will have seen some of the aggressive responses.

For this very important thread to mean anything, we ought to question.
Instead it just becomes the same type of sentiment repeated over and over again.

I honestly don't get the point you were making about referencing history. I love history and it's a useful tool to understand things, but only through analysis. To me, it looked like you were just shrugging off oppression and saying 'well that's just what we do'. I trust you weren't, but I can't see your point, and that's why people have reacted to your post. Like your post about Palestinians living in relative peace, it seems quite glib and dismissive of a lot of suffering, even if that wasn't intended.

 

[Raoul]

We've been inundated with Twitter posts meant as a "proof" for whichever side you're on. Anything goes and it's killing the discussion. Too few are taking the time to formulate and write their opinion down.

That’s why the thread title says less tweets, more discussion. A few tweets here and there are fine, but ultimately, it’s the discussion (not necessarily related to a tweet) that makes the thread more productive.

 

[Badunk]

You are right about the blame culture.
Just look back a day or so to the instant of the terrible hospital explosion at the almost instant tirade of posts blaming the IDF. Yet if you dared to offer anything different, the same agressive responses.

My earlier post about the West Bank was to question what was happening compared to history. Both recent and past.
But you will have seen some of the aggressive responses.

For this very important thread to mean anything, we ought to question.
Instead it just becomes the same type of sentiment repeated over and over again.

You haven't acted neutral at all. You're not an impartial observer seeking objective truth. Please don't portray yourself as such because it's very disingenuous and is fooling no one. Your provocative questions have upset some posters and they have responded with ad hominen attacks, which is wrong.

 

[RedDevil@84]

The difference between the IDF and Hamas is, one tries to keep civilian casualties as low as possible, while the other's goal is to kill as many civilians as possible.

If you don't see the difference, than I rest my case.

Great. A denier.

 

[Badunk]

From the BBC website:

Summary

1. Gaza is now a "hellhole" for civilians and time is running out to get aid into the territory, says the UN's agency for Palestinian refugees
2. Relief organisations hope 20 aid lorries will enter today but say far more is needed
3. Gaza is still under siege with Israel blocking supplies of water, electricity, food and fuel across its border
4. UK PM Rishi Sunak is attending talks in Egypt as fears grow that the conflict could spread
5. Palestinian officials say more than 3,700 people have been killed in Gaza since Hamas attacked Israel on 7 October, killing more than 1,400 people
6. On Thursday, an Orthodox Christian church in Gaza City where church authorities say hundreds of people were sheltering was hit
7. Israel says its jets had targeted a nearby Hamas base used to fire rockets at its territory and it was reviewing the incident
8. Gaza's government media office said 18 people had been killed; the church did not announce a death toll

 

[Roane]

You and I are from the same generation and know this situation has it's roots back in post WW2, with the desire of the Alliance to find a homeland for the Jewish people who had suffered terribly before and during that war. Like a lot things at the time, it was handled more with a sense of doing something quickly (in the moment )as we now say, rather than properly.
I doubt if many of the posters on here really want to engage in philosophical discussion of what went wrong, only who to blame.

Not sure if I'm from the same generation as you, I'm in my 50's.

But this narrative is false. There is literally quotes from way back that "prove" this to be false. In writings from various factions involved.

There are quotes literally saying there is no right to claim to the land 2000 years, or whatever, after but it will give an ally for Suez, for example.

The notion of rights and freedom for the "natives" was discussed. Certain proposals put forward. The acknowledgement of what the it's bits and maybes would be discussed at length.

People claiming to want "philosophical discussions" won't even accept the "proofs" put forward. A case in point is the whole "only democracy in the Middle East". People more knowl dgeable and literate than me laugh at this. Even from the Jewish side. Yet no we on here push a narrative. Get pulled on it and all of a sudden it's "people don't want to engage..."

More like people have picked a side and just push BS

 

[moses]

So if I understand you correctly. Proliferating unverified and sensationalist media and reports which add nothing to debate, but pour fuel on the fire of an already volatile situation where emotions are running high is acceptable.

Pointing out that people in general (without insulting posters or even limiting the phenomenon to redcafe) are doing so, and that they ignoring reliable and expert opinions in favour of doing this; is unacceptable? And you consider it a “blanket insult” ?

No, don't play games. You called posters juvenile for not taking your posts on board. You made similar comments yesterday. I don't think I said anything was unacceptable, I just asked you to refrain from doing it.

 

[Raoul]

I find it interesting that the biggest defenders of Israel in this thread aren't the Israeli posters.

There are about two Israeli posters in this thread who rarely post, probably because they’re busy elsewhere because their country is at war.

 

[B. Munich]

That aside my point was that if a percentage of people, 57% are "really not that innocent" then every baby born in Israel to Israelis is a legitimate target.

**This isn't what I believe I'm just responding to the absolutely batshit claim of "not that innocent" made earlier

Let me explain the reason for my post.

I grew up as a German in Luxemburg, Belgium, Netherlands and France in the 70's. In every country I was frequently confronted with the our past. Whatever I replied, I got to hear Germans are guilty because we supported an evil regime. Without the huge support within the population Hitler and all the atrocities weren't possible.
In a nutshell, WW2 and all the suffering was the fault of the German population.

Wrong or right, this time shaped me and therefore if you willingly support terrorists you aren't innocent.

 

[B. Munich]

Didn't Nazi won the election?

They didn't win a majority. They only got around 32%, if I remember correctly. Hitler became chancellor of a coalition government and then seized total power after Reichspräsident Hindenburg died.

 

[That_Bloke]

Didn't Nazi won the election?

They won but actually never got the majority in the Parliament.

About 44% of the votes in 1933, where the last democratic elections in the Weimar Republic were held, if my memory serves me right. It also has to be seen in a broader context where the Great Depression in 1929 added to the war reparations absolutely wrecked the german economy and by extension the Weimar Republic which was already walking on thin ice. Also the general anti-semitic public opinion prevalent in Europe at the time somehow made Hitler's very clear views on the Jews not that outlandish. Until 1928 the Nazis were still marginal (3% of the votes, I think) even if they were gaining traction.

That’s why the thread title says less tweets, more discussion. A few tweets here and there are fine, but ultimately, it’s the discussion (not necessarily related to a tweet) that makes the thread more productive.

I know, and I'm really thankful to you and the mods to keep it open, it must certainly not be easy. This is one of the safe havens on the internet where people can engage and express their opinions in a civil way. The rest is an absolute cesspit.

We just have a couple of posters who are really going overboard with this and maybe should be warned. Like the one whom I replied to said, the most interesting posters are just put off.

 

[Darkhorsez]

Let me explain the reason for my post.

I grew up as a German in Luxemburg, Belgium, Netherlands and France in the 70's. In every country I was frequently confronted with the our past. Whatever I replied, I got to hear Germans are guilty because we supported an evil regime. Without the huge support within the population Hitler and all the atrocities weren't possible.
In a nutshell, WW2 and all the suffering was the fault of the German population.

Wrong or right, this time shaped me and therefore if you willingly support terrorists you aren't innocent.

Not really good enough. What makes you think that the Palestines dying right now support terrorists? Also what is your definition of terrorist? Would you include the right wing Israeli mobs attacking people in the West Bank as terrorists too?

 

[That_Bloke]

There are about two Israeli posters in this thread who rarely post, probably because they’re busy elsewhere because their country is at war.

They also are aggressively replied to by some, to be fair.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

Let me explain the reason for my post.

I grew up as a German in Luxemburg, Belgium, Netherlands and France in the 70's. In every country I was frequently confronted with the our past. Whatever I replied, I got to hear Germans are guilty because we supported an evil regime. Without the huge support within the population Hitler and all the atrocities weren't possible.
In a nutshell, WW2 and all the suffering was the fault of the German population.

Wrong or right, this time shaped me and therefore if you willingly support terrorists you aren't innocent.

I have found your posts to be really provocative (the poll argument is downright bizarre!) but reading your reason for them makes me just sad. Are you willing to be educated on the subject or have you decided that you will double down no matter what? Because what you are now doing is finding every angle that you can twist to fit your over-arching world view (context doesn't seem to matter) and ignore everything that, easily I might add, counters that.

 

[RedC]

Let me explain the reason for my post.

I grew up as a German in Luxemburg, Belgium, Netherlands and France in the 70's. In every country I was frequently confronted with the our past. Whatever I replied, I got to hear Germans are guilty because we supported an evil regime. Without the huge support within the population Hitler and all the atrocities weren't possible.
In a nutshell, WW2 and all the suffering was the fault of the German population.

Wrong or right, this time shaped me and therefore if you willingly support terrorists you aren't innocent.

Ok, so you experienced being incorrectly blamed for something you had nothing to do with, and had zero control of, and the lesson you learned from it is that you should also do the same. That's a strange one.