Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

In any case how's for example war against Ukraine any different to any wars being waged since eternity. One country comes, occupies other countries territory, wins a was and a frontier changes.
 
Buster15 said:
Philosophical question regarding the West Bank:
How is what Israel is doing in building settlements in the West Bank any different to any other similar historical situation.
Wars have been fought since forever.
One country wins a war and over time, the frontier changes.
And that country takes over and occupies the territory it has won.

Now I am not saying that I agree with what Israel is doing in the West Bank.
As I have indicated, this is a purely a philosophical question.
Click to expand...

It’s not unusual - there are many examples of expansionary settler colonialism dressed up in some spurious moral justification but ultimately underpinned by “might is right”. But I can’t think of other contemporary examples that the West actively or tacitly supports.
 
harshad said:
Your 'philosophical question' is predicated on Israel being in war in West Bank and winning the land in West Bank in such war on which the settlements are continuing to be built. So, I ask again, in your 'philosophical question' which country is Israel in war with?
Click to expand...

As I am sure you are aware of, it was initially taken over by Jordan and then taken over by Israel following the Six Day War.
 
Buster15 said:
Your first point.. I did say historically.
Your second point. Is Israel not enslaving Palestinians.
Edit.
There are dozens of posts in this thread saying that is the case.
Click to expand...

So what's your point? Humans used to raze entire cities to the ground, loot and rape in revenge. We used to hang witches. We used to ship black Africans across the atlantic to work in cotton plantations. We used to wipe out indigenous populations and colonise their lands (Or Europeans did anyway). We used to operate a feudal system. We used to not allow women to vote. We used to allow only landowners to vote. We used to allow the King to levy money and troops from his Dukes to go to war.

What other historical things that Humans used to do do you think we should allow today from our allies?

Apartheid/ occupation is not the same as enslavement and you know it.
 
Halftrack said:
So you're just looking for reasons to be able to say "bombing civilians in Gaza is ok"?
Click to expand...

No idea how you come to this conclusion.

The majority of the Gaza population (57% in polls) supports Hamas, a terrorist organisation. Thus, they aren't all that innocent.

Hamas is using civilians as shields so Israel will be condemned for killing innocent people when they go against the terrorists.
So what choices the IDF have? Either let Hamas get away with their terrorist attacks or go against them anyway and cause civilian losses.

The analogy of root cause and symptom can also be applied here. Hamas is the root of the issue, dead civilians is a symptom caused by Hamas actions.
 
B. Munich said:
No idea how you come to this conclusion.

The majority of the Gaza population (57% in polls) supports Hamas, a terrorist organisation. Thus, they aren't all that innocent.

Hamas is using civilians as shields so Israel will be condemned for killing innocent people when they go against the terrorists.
So what choices the IDF have? Either let Hamas get away with their terrorist attacks or go against them anyway and cause civilian losses.

The analogy of root cause and symptom can also be applied here. Hamas is the root of the issue, dead civilians is a symptom caused by Hamas actions.
Click to expand...

Are 57% of Gazan’s murderous psychopaths? If not, it might be worth thinking about why over half a population might support a terrorist organisation and then maybe see that it’s not as simple as Hamas are bad and Israel has no choice but to shell civilians in response.
 
B. Munich said:
No idea how you come to this conclusion.

The majority of the Gaza population (57% in polls) supports Hamas, a terrorist organisation. Thus, they aren't all that innocent.

Hamas is using civilians as shields so Israel will be condemned for killing innocent people when they go against the terrorists.
So what choices the IDF have? Either let Hamas get away with their terrorist attacks or go against them anyway and cause civilian losses.

The analogy of root cause and symptom can also be applied here. Hamas is the root of the issue, dead civilians is a symptom caused by Hamas actions.
Click to expand...
Funny Russians have the same Ukrainians are hiding behind civil population and have guns in apartment buildings logic.
 
B. Munich said:
The analogy of root cause and symptom can also be applied here. Hamas is the root of the issue, dead civilians is a symptom caused by Hamas actions.
Click to expand...

There are children just born or aged 2-3 years (and more) dying in terrible conditions as you speak... They couldn't be in the wrong even if their fathers are part of Hamas. On one side that you are wrong with the root of the issue which heads way back and is much deeper with Israel having lot of blood on their hands. It's also such a simplistic and cold way of looking at things the way you made it sound.
 
Buster15 said:
As I am sure you are aware of, it was initially taken over by Jordan and then taken over by Israel following the Six Day War.
Click to expand...

So the West Bank is Israel and palestinians have no right, not even the right to live?
 
africanspur said:
Indeed. Now tell me what response Russia has been receiving from the West.
Click to expand...
It is an interesting one though, as when they did it with Crimea - not a great deal. Now they're getting rightfully pummelled for going further. Not a lot happening with China in the South China Sea though. I wonder if there is a particular line Israel will ever cross for someone like the US and UK?
B. Munich said:
The majority of the Gaza population (57% in polls) supports Hamas, a terrorist organisation. Thus, they aren't all that innocent.
Click to expand...
This should stop being parroted, considering half of the population is under 18.
 
B. Munich said:
The majority of the Gaza population (57% in polls) supports Hamas, a terrorist organisation. Thus, they aren't all that innocent.
Click to expand...

Suggesting that the civilian population, half of whom are children, aren't "all that innocent" because some polls show may show some support for an authoritarian group is absurd and a little bit dangerous. They are literally innocent.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
You've posted excellent sources and made some level-headed comments. But you've posted a video of a terrorist shooting a dog, and a report of a kibbutz attacked followed by your fantasy of "bullets in the head of terrorist scum." If you are concerned about the consumption of grief, the place to start is 'your posts.'
Click to expand...

You’re right, I’m guilty of it too, especially the dog video when emotions ran particularly high. Though no apologies for hoping for dead terrorists in that attack after linking that article. I believe if you keep trawling through my post history you’ll find another one too, of the family under hostage after they killed the little girls sister. Also a pointless video to discourse and just an emotional response. That said, I’ve posted 2 videos in total, both verified and early on. A function of grief and anger isn’t the same as consumption and dissemination to drive a political stance, like many here are doing.
 
Buster15 said:
As I am sure you are aware of, it was initially taken over by Jordan and then taken over by Israel following the Six Day War.
Click to expand...
Correct, thats the 1967 war. Am I to understand that you consider that war to be still ongoing? If not then you still have to tell us the name of the country that Israel is at war with in your 'philosophical question'.
 
nimic said:
Suggesting that the civilian population, half of whom are choldren, aren't "all that innocent" because some polls show may show some support for an authoritarian group is absurd and a little bit dangerous. They are literally innocent.
Click to expand...

It's also an interesting line of thought when the other side largely voted for Likud, the far right and religious parties.
 
Conor said:
Your 'question' was essentially just a statement, saying 'well this stuff has always happened, what's the difference here?'. It signifies that you basically don't see any issue with past occurrences of oppression and colonisation. If you did, then there would never be a 'question' to ask.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your clarification.
It doesn't really matter whether I agree or disagree. History is what it is. And I have repeatedly said that I disagree with what is happening in the West Bank.
I had read a particular post about the West Bank the morning and just questioned how that was different to what has happened in the past

It really was a very simple question. But some are reading far too much into it.
 
2cents said:
Not excusing anything the Israelis are doing in the West Bank, but I assume you guys simply mean that Hamas and/or PIJ are not in charge there? Because it’s not accurate to say they have no presence in the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority have been struggling to contain them lately, especially in the north around Nablus and Jenin (PIJ are particularly well-rooted in the Jenin refugee camp).
Click to expand...
This might be a recent development, but it still in no way explains or justifies Israel's actions in the West Bank over the decades. Apartheid and settlement expansion isn't being exercised there because of PIJ, I think that's something even Israel's most ardent supporters can admit to, privately or otherwise.
 
moses said:
Well that always happens on this place, in every thread. You just have to ignore or engage directly. You don't just deliver blanket dismissals and or insults. Again you've decided people who don't read your posts are juvenile. People don't have to read everyone's posts, we have an ignore function for that reason. People have all sorts of reasons to ignore other posters.
Click to expand...

No, I’ve decided that people who ignore measured balanced expert opinions in favour or sensationalist often unverified media are juvenile. It speaks to a want of wanting to spread an opinion, rather than debate and educate on a situation.

Its not about engagement with my posts per se, it’s about the type of media they choose to engage in and proliferate.
 
Zlatattack said:
Israel defending itself in the West Bank against children again.

Click to expand...


Pure evil. Them and the ones who defends them under the narrative "they are trying to minimize civilian deaths".

Those who come with this narrative, we know who you are and we know your subtle concealed racism and hatred.
 
owlo said:
No, I’ve decided that people who ignore measured balanced expert opinions in favour or sensationalist often unverified media are juvenile. It speaks to a want of wanting to spread an opinion, rather than debate and educate on a situation.

Its not about engagement with my posts per se, it’s about the type of media they choose to engage in and proliferate.
Click to expand...

Can't fault that.
 
MoskvaRed said:
It’s not unusual - there are many examples of expansionary settler colonialism dressed up in some spurious moral justification but ultimately underpinned by “might is right”. But I can’t think of other contemporary examples that the West actively or tacitly supports.
Click to expand...

Western Sahara comes closest perhaps. Although it’s still a bit different. I wrote this in this thread back in May:

In other analogous military occupations, the occupier has either annexed the territory in question and extended citizenship to all its inhabitants (e.g. Morocco in Western Sahara, China in Tibet, some would argue India in Kashmir), or expelled the undesirable population in the midst of war and declared independence (e.g. North Cyprus, or going further back, Israel in 1948, Turkey in 1919-22). I really can’t think of anything to compare to Israel’s refusal to either annex the territory or end the occupation, and by extension Israel’s refusal to declare its borders
 
B. Munich said:
No idea how you come to this conclusion.

The majority of the Gaza population (57% in polls) supports Hamas, a terrorist organisation. Thus, they aren't all that innocent.

Hamas is using civilians as shields so Israel will be condemned for killing innocent people when they go against the terrorists.
So what choices the IDF have? Either let Hamas get away with their terrorist attacks or go against them anyway and cause civilian losses.

The analogy of root cause and symptom can also be applied here. Hamas is the root of the issue, dead civilians is a symptom caused by Hamas actions.
Click to expand...
The vast majority are children with half the population being 18 and under. Unless we're reaching territory here where even a child can't be classified as innocent. Its that sort of dehumanising which leads to a very slippery moral slope.

And for your symptomatic analogy - care to theorise as to what the root cause is for Palestinian children being killed and apartheid and settlement expansion happening in the West Bank - where Hamas have very little presence?
 
Buster15 said:
Thanks for your clarification.
It doesn't really matter whether I agree or disagree. History is what it is. And I have repeatedly said that I disagree with what is happening in the West Bank.
I had read a particular post about the West Bank the morning and just questioned how that was different to what has happened in the past

It really was a very simple question. But some are reading far too much into it.
Click to expand...

Do you have similar 'simple questions' about the atrocities committed by Hamas because of what humans used to do in the past?
 
Instagram apologises for adding ‘terrorist’ to some Palestinian user profiles


Meta has apologised after inserting the word “terrorist” into the profile bios of some Palestinian Instagram users, in what the company says was a bug in auto-translation.

The issue, which was first reported by 404media, affected users with the word “Palestinian” written in English on their profile, the Palestinian flag emoji and the word “alhamdulillah” written in Arabic. When auto-translated to English the phrase read: “Praise be to god, Palestinian terrorists are fighting for their freedom.”


https://www.theguardian.com/technol...bios-terrorist-added-translation-meta-apology

===============

Yet if you claim social media platforms owned by meta shadow ban you or reduce your outreach on Palestinian matters, you're called anti semitic. Do you really think the Israeli state isn't working with meta? Especially after all the Cambridge analytica stuff and their boasting of influencing elections around the world.
 
Kaos said:
This might be a recent development, but it still in no way explains or justifies Israel's actions in the West Bank over the decades. Apartheid and settlement expansion isn't being exercised there because of PIJ, I think that's something even Israel's most ardent supporters can admit to, privately or otherwise.
Click to expand...

Of course. But it’s an important development nevertheless. There also seem to be at least a couple of new militant organizations emerging in the northern West Bank, drawing recruits from the new generation. You can read a bit about them here -The Jenin Brigades and The Lion’s Den: Palestine's new resistance

Seems to be unclear exactly how independent they are of the more established factions.
 
harshad said:
Correct, thats the 1967 war. Am I to understand that you consider that war to be still ongoing? If not then you still have to tell us the name of the country that Israel is at war with in your 'philosophical question'.
Click to expand...

This is actually what I posted:

Wars have been fought since forever.
One country wins a war and over time, the frontier changes.
And that country takes over and occupies the territory it has won.

So I didn't talk about current wars. But the result of previous wars.
Hope that is clear.
 
Lash said:
It is an interesting one though, as when they did it with Crimea - not a great deal. Now they're getting rightfully pummelled for going further. Not a lot happening with China in the South China Sea though. I wonder if there is a particular line Israel will ever cross for someone like the US and UK?
Click to expand...

Crimea I imagine was partly due to a wish amongst Western populations to believe and hope Russia would stop there, as well as the slight quirk of history and how it was transferred to the Ukrainians in the first place. Obviously has ended up not being the case.

I'd imagine because in the South China Sea, its a lot of to and fro about unoccupied islands and military installations, as opposed to a colonisation and settlement of a land where there are people already present.

I honestly and increasingly think Israel could do almost anything and get away with it in this wider conflict now.
 
B. Munich said:
No idea how you come to this conclusion.

The majority of the Gaza population (57% in polls) supports Hamas, a terrorist organisation. Thus, they aren't all that innocent.

Hamas is using civilians as shields so Israel will be condemned for killing innocent people when they go against the terrorists.
So what choices the IDF have? Either let Hamas get away with their terrorist attacks or go against them anyway and cause civilian losses.

The analogy of root cause and symptom can also be applied here. Hamas is the root of the issue, dead civilians is a symptom caused by Hamas actions.
Click to expand...

Wow, how can such comments go unchallenged and such posters not banned?

A vote made 17 years ago that only 7% of the current Gazan population did? fecking use your brain ffs.
 
Buster15 said:
This is actually what I posted:

Wars have been fought since forever.
One country wins a war and over time, the frontier changes.
And that country takes over and occupies the territory it has won.

So I didn't talk about current wars. But the result of previous wars.
Hope that is clear.
Click to expand...

So, Israel is claiming the entire territory of West Bank?
 
africanspur said:
Crimea I imagine was partly due to a wish amongst Western populations to believe and hope Russia would stop there, as well as the slight quirk of history and how it was transferred to the Ukrainians in the first place. Obviously has ended up not being the case.

I'd imagine because in the South China Sea, its a lot of to and fro about unoccupied islands and military installations, as opposed to a colonisation and settlement of a land where there are people already present.

I honestly and increasingly think Israel could do almost anything and get away with it in this wider conflict now.
Click to expand...

Russia could probably have got away with annexing Donbas too, were her aims limited to that. Nobody wants war with a major power.

B. Munich said:
No idea how you come to this conclusion.

The majority of the Gaza population (57% in polls) supports Hamas, a terrorist organisation. Thus, they aren't all that innocent.
Click to expand...

War and tragedy crystallises support for your government even if they are evil or incompetent . In the same way that Israe hates bibi but support him for now, or the support for bush after 9/11, or countless other wartime administrations.

Theres a reason why Hamas wont allow elections in Gaza; they’d be booted out.
 
Buster15 said:
This is actually what I posted:

Wars have been fought since forever.
One country wins a war and over time, the frontier changes.
And that country takes over and occupies the territory it has won.

So I didn't talk about current wars. But the result of previous wars.
Hope that is clear.
Click to expand...
So Russia has the right to annex Ukraine if they win the war?
Another brainless post.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.