Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

pierrethesnack said:
the Jewish nation state, which we helped create because of Germany's crimes? I hope I'm wrong, but I seriously doubt it.
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That's not what happened. The western governments backed Zionism after the Russian revolution because they realised that most of the effective Bolshevik leaders were Jews and without them it would be crippled. So there was a concerted effort by the right to promote Zionism as an alternative. It was an act of self preservation. This also explains the century long antipathy of the hard left to Israel of which Corbyn was merely a modern example. If you don't believe me perhaps you'll believe Churchill, writing in 1920...


It is particularly important in these circumstances that the national Jews in every country who are loyal to the land of their adoption should come forward on every occasion, as many of them in England have already done, and take a prominent part in every measure for combating the Bolshevik conspiracy. In this way they will be able to vindicate the honour of the Jewish name and make it clear to all the world that the Bolshevik movement is not a Jewish movement, but is repudiated vehemently by the great mass of the Jewish race.

But a negative resistance to Bolshevism in any field is not enough. Positive and practicable alternatives are needed in the moral as well as in the social sphere; and in building up with the utmost possible rapidity a Jewish national centre in Palestine which may become not only a refuge to the oppressed from the unhappy lands of Central Europe, but which will also be a symbol of Jewish unity and the temple of Jewish glory, a task is presented on which many blessings rest.​



https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Zionism_versus_Bolshevism
 
pierrethesnack said:
I don't mean to be snide, but that has always been the case, everywhere. I get people being upset at 'the West' (as if that's any more of a homogeneous group than something like 'The Arab world' for it's hypocrisy, but ultimately human nature doesn't change. If anyone expects human rights and so on to take priority over political reality when push comes to shove, I'm sorry to say you've been fooled.

European countries have absolutely no mandate from their voters to do anything about this other than as a support actor to whatever the US decides to do. We can't even handle our own security these days, and people expect us to try to solve this nightmare of a conflict by putting serious pressure on our ally, the Jewish nation state, which we helped create because of Germany's crimes? I hope I'm wrong, but I seriously doubt it.
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A state that was born in sin and no different from the Nazi Germany of which they were victims. Why exactly is a Jewish life more valuable than a Palestinian life? We continue to condemn the terrorist acts of Hamas but no one is holding the genocidal regime of the Jewish state accountable. How about we snap out of all this hypocrisy of holding States like the UK and America as some moral compass for the whole world when they continue to hold Israel to a lower standard but expect different from Russia.

I am not naive to know that the world is a jungle and the strong take the spoils, but surely the weak is allowed to fight back by any means it can and may be just may be there is another side to the story of October 7th.

I am a medical doctor and I cannot imagine bringing myself to give preferential treatment to my patients based on the color of their skin, ethnicity or nationality. It is abhorrent and evil to do so. I am sick and tired of being sick and tired of the fight for equality and justice, It just never end
 
glazed said:
That's not what happened. The western governments backed Zionism after the Russian revolution because they realised that most of the effective Bolshevik leaders were Jews and without them it would be crippled. So there was a concerted effort by the right to promote Zionism as an alternative. It was an act of self preservation. This also explains the century long antipathy of the hard left to Israel of which Corbyn was merely a modern example. If you don't believe me perhaps you'll believe Churchill, writing in 1920...


It is particularly important in these circumstances that the national Jews in every country who are loyal to the land of their adoption should come forward on every occasion, as many of them in England have already done, and take a prominent part in every measure for combating the Bolshevik conspiracy. In this way they will be able to vindicate the honour of the Jewish name and make it clear to all the world that the Bolshevik movement is not a Jewish movement, but is repudiated vehemently by the great mass of the Jewish race.

But a negative resistance to Bolshevism in any field is not enough. Positive and practicable alternatives are needed in the moral as well as in the social sphere; and in building up with the utmost possible rapidity a Jewish national centre in Palestine which may become not only a refuge to the oppressed from the unhappy lands of Central Europe, but which will also be a symbol of Jewish unity and the temple of Jewish glory, a task is presented on which many blessings rest.​



https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Zionism_versus_Bolshevism
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I don't doubt it for a second, but that is in my experience not in any way part of the prevailing narrative in most people's (and least of all our elected officials) mind here, and doesn't have any bearing on what we decide to do now. Point taken though, thanks for the info.
 
Amir said:
It took Netanyahu nine days to meet with their representatives (and turn it into a political set-up).
Those bastards see anyone who criticises Netanyahu or oppose him in any way as enemies.
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That's ... amazing in a bad way.

And also this



I was going to say, worse than Modi, but no - it's the same lack of feeling and personality cult.

As a bonus, for your Ben-Gvir, celebrating Rabin's assassination and convicted of incitement, we have an MP who celebrated Gandhi's assassination and is accused of a bomb blast in a mosque. And like those from the army saying turn Gaza into dust, etc, our government and army officially awarded a major who tied a Kashmiri to the front of his jeep to use as a human shield.
 
berbatrick said:
That's ... amazing in a bad way.

And also this



I was going to say, worse than Modi, but no - it's the same lack of feeling and personality cult.

As a bonus, for your Ben-Gvir, celebrating Rabin's assassination and convicted of incitement, we have an MP who celebrated Gandhi's assassination and is accused of a bomb blast in a mosque. And like those from the army saying turn Gaza into dust, etc, our government and army officially awarded a major who tied a Kashmiri to the front of his jeep to use as a human shield.
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Likud and RSS, same energy.
 
The Firestarter said:
Dont want to be in the place of those on the cv's while he is landing . Some situations are hairy but this one is the whole bigfoot.
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A good move imo. It promotes diplomacy and will probably delay the Israeli invasion a bit, which could give the aid that’s being sent to Gaza a chance of getting in and, assuming Hamas don’t steal it for themselves, actually reach those who need it.
 
Raoul said:
A good move imo. It promotes diplomacy and will probably delay the Israeli invasion a bit, which could give the aid that’s being sent to Gaza a chance of getting in and, assuming Hamas don’t steal it for themselves, actually reach those who need it.
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Yes what it does for sure is delay the reaction, hopefully turning it into a response. But also a bit of a ballsy move. Imagine he is in TA and the crazies start lobbing rockets in that direction. Someone might just feel like it without getting the memo.
 
The Firestarter said:
Yes what it does for sure is delay the reaction, hopefully turning it into a response. But also a bit of a ballsy move. Imagine he is in TA and the crazies start lobbing rockets in that direction. Someone might just feel like it without getting the memo.
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It’s a nightmare. I hope, though, that the back channels would insure that Hamas won’t do anything while Biden is there.

I wonder what would be the objective of the visit. Showing support of Israel? Sure. But what else? Hopefully something good will come out of it.
 
My roundup yesterday was eerily accurate. Must suck to be a military planner or protection detail these days.
 
So USS Bataan is indeed heading towards Israel, with 26MEU on board as @Carolina Red pointed out (thank you), CVN69 heading out there too, good luck xo. Not much more to note, but 2 CSGs messing up rotation is a bit of a big deal; obviously concerned about hamas and Syria. Seems like rather a large amount of overkill. Probably a bit worried about hezbollah ability to close off/degrade Israel’s runways.

as for bataan, they say the carriers are for force projection, whilst the lhds are for force delivery. Worth noting they have specifically said that no infantry is in prep mode. The word infantry is interesting there.

Nothing new on the Biden visit, 4 planes landed before my post last night so looked like it has already been decided.

Israel getting nervy trigger fingers. Theyre still doing nothing good, and I’m still not sure they have a plan. Ground invasion more likely delayed so US can help provide ISR than to help refugees. APCs look to mostly be trophy equipped: I guess we’ll see how good it is. Still no real movevent from hezbollah but if Israel keep insisting on first strikes they might drag them into it. Ain’t gonna get any prettier .
 
Can anyone explan this new phenomenom of gleefully finding the craziest views that are antithetical to yours on twitter, then posting them on some forum as 'evidence' that you're morally superior?

It's just bizarre to me. I don't care what celebrity/fringe polician/random person thinks. The crazier the more amplification, the more likely you are to find it, the more amplified your hatred.

By all means articulate your views, back it up with well-researched evidence and post that.
 
Beachryan said:
Can anyone explan this new phenomenom of gleefully finding the craziest views that are antithetical to yours on twitter, then posting them on some forum as 'evidence' that you're morally superior?

It's just bizarre to me. I don't care what celebrity/fringe polician/random person thinks. The crazier the more amplification, the more likely you are to find it, the more amplified your hatred.

By all means articulate your views, back it up with well-researched evidence and post that.
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Do you think a member of parliament, from the less hawkish faction, saying that children are to blame for their killing by her government, is not newsworthy? Do you think that it is not newsworthy is the light of her government actually going forward and killing a thousand kids, threatening hundreds of thousands more with disintegration and starvation? Does it not fit into a pattern, when her president (another dove-ish face of Israeli politics) said that the territory they are bombing has no innocent civilians? When the army said they are dealing with "human animals"? Do you think this language has nothing to do with the type of war being waged?
 
Beachryan said:
Can anyone explan this new phenomenom of gleefully finding the craziest views that are antithetical to yours on twitter, then posting them on some forum as 'evidence' that you're morally superior?

It's just bizarre to me. I don't care what celebrity/fringe polician/random person thinks. The crazier the more amplification, the more likely you are to find it, the more amplified your hatred.

By all means articulate your views, back it up with well-researched evidence and post that.
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I mean it’s pretty shocking if the left leaning members of the Knesset are openly blaming all Gazan children / civilians for their own genocide. It’s part of the wider Zionist rhetoric where Israel will justify the murder of innocents and no one calls them out for it.
 
The Corinthian said:
I mean it’s pretty shocking if the left leaning members of the Knesset are openly blaming all Gazan children / civilians for their own genocide. It’s part of the wider Zionist rhetoric where Israel will justify the murder of innocents and no one calls them out for it.
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Not calling out/staying mum is still preferable to what is actually happening with some people - continued support of the terrorist, apartheid regime.
 
africanspur said:
Not thick, it's just they're saying the quiet part out loud more often now.

She's said this before for instance



Which if said by a Palestinian would undoubtedly be seen as calling for genocide but has become par for the course recently. Just people don't want to hear it.
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It's a bit of both for me.
 
berbatrick said:
I don't know anything about the tech guy, but his posts (the ones getting tons of angry replies) were very basic stuff. Apart from the one I posted, there was one with a chart of Israeli and Palestinian deaths from 2005 onwards. Don't know if there was something else triggering people, but those are the ones I saw.

I do know the bio guy, since he is a pioneer in open access publishing and new ways of peer review, and has been talked about a lot in my lab for those things.
He did not post anything at all about the attack or the bombing till a few days in (maybe 2 days ago?), when he retweeted this Onion article. While his account was up, I saw a lot of academics (seemingly a lot of Israeli academics) in the comments, very very angry (ISIS, anti-semite, Kapo), many tagging his journal (eLife). He then posted (my paraphrase) that he deplores all loss of life. He got another barrage. That was the last I saw, next time his account was gone and this was going viral (now getting pushback from the other side) -

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Classic Twitter pile ons. Don’t feel much sympathy for anyone who chooses to continue to use that hell site under its current ownership and gets in hot water because of it.

Paddy Cosgrave has been involved in another Twitter classic trope for a long while now. He was unhappy with the Irish government (because he felt they didn't give enough support a tech conference he organised, that was killed off by covid) so became a libertarian, conspiracy theorist and free speech obsessed, attention seeker. He once invited Marine Le Pen to his conference. All of which the blue ticks lapped up. Sounds as though they've turned on him now he's gone off script. Live by the sword...
 
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owlo said:
So USS Bataan is indeed heading towards Israel, with 26MEU on board as @Carolina Red pointed out (thank you), CVN69 heading out there too, good luck xo. Not much more to note, but 2 CSGs messing up rotation is a bit of a big deal; obviously concerned about hamas and Syria. Seems like rather a large amount of overkill. Probably a bit worried about hezbollah ability to close off/degrade Israel’s runways.

as for bataan, they say the carriers are for force projection, whilst the lhds are for force delivery. Worth noting they have specifically said that no infantry is in prep mode. The word infantry is interesting there.

Nothing new on the Biden visit, 4 planes landed before my post last night so looked like it has already been decided.

Israel getting nervy trigger fingers. Theyre still doing nothing good, and I’m still not sure they have a plan. Ground invasion more likely delayed so US can help provide ISR than to help refugees. APCs look to mostly be trophy equipped: I guess we’ll see how good it is. Still no real movevent from hezbollah but if Israel keep insisting on first strikes they might drag them into it. Ain’t gonna get any prettier .
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I still dont think the US is there for any other reason than to remind Iran they are there. There is no political will to get into another fight in the Middle East. The most I can see is supporting air strikes on Hezbollah if they try to get involved. Maybe the MEU could be used to push back any Hezbollah infiltration from Lebanon or protect a Gaza humanitarian corridor from both sides, but the 1000 or so ground troops isnt enough for anything more, and anything that puts US troops in harms way is going to be a big vote loser if bullets start flying.

Israel have a plan, create a buffer zone a couple of km from the border and destroy everything in it. Biden is heading there to remind them a lot of people live within that area. 'We support you but don't push it'.
 
Beachryan said:
Can anyone explan this new phenomenom of gleefully finding the craziest views that are antithetical to yours on twitter, then posting them on some forum as 'evidence' that you're morally superior?

It's just bizarre to me. I don't care what celebrity/fringe polician/random person thinks. The crazier the more amplification, the more likely you are to find it, the more amplified your hatred.

By all means articulate your views, back it up with well-researched evidence and post that.
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Yes, it's definitely not worth posting what Israeli politicians think on this topic, it's not really relevant.
 
Beachryan said:
Can anyone explan this new phenomenom of gleefully finding the craziest views that are antithetical to yours on twitter, then posting them on some forum as 'evidence' that you're morally superior?

It's just bizarre to me. I don't care what celebrity/fringe polician/random person thinks. The crazier the more amplification, the more likely you are to find it, the more amplified your hatred.

By all means articulate your views, back it up with well-researched evidence and post that.
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I would agree with you if this video didn't have two opinions and not just the "craziest views". The tweet is way more relevant than any of our opinions because it exposes two things, first that moderate Isrealis in parliament have expressed their disagreement with the actions of IDF and the governement but also that the people with crazy views are mainstream politicians most are on the right but some are on the left.

All of that exposes the issues that Israel have, socially and politically. It tells you why palestinians are routinely murdered in the West Bank and why many people aren't actually fazed by it.
 
berbatrick said:
Do you think a member of parliament, from the less hawkish faction, saying that children are to blame for their killing by her government, is not newsworthy? Do you think that it is not newsworthy is the light of her government actually going forward and killing a thousand kids, threatening hundreds of thousands more with disintegration and starvation? Does it not fit into a pattern, when her president (another dove-ish face of Israeli politics) said that the territory they are bombing has no innocent civilians? When the army said they are dealing with "human animals"? Do you think this language has nothing to do with the type of war being waged?
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That was poor/unlucky timing on my part. I meant half of each page of this forum is random tweets. Didn't realise the closest one to my comment was an actual/involved politician. The majority of tweets being posted could be from anyone.
 
I mean the media have really reached a new low in their coverage. Was just reading about the US hate attack that lead to the death of 6 year old. So the attacker was their landlord who by all accounts loved the kid! His wife had said that he had been following the events through a right wing radio station and become paranoid over fears of an imminent Palestinian attack!
 
The Corinthian said:
I mean it’s pretty shocking if the left leaning members of the Knesset are openly blaming all Gazan children / civilians for their own genocide. It’s part of the wider Zionist rhetoric where Israel will justify the murder of innocents and no one calls them out for it.
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The left wing one was the one who was saying a child is a child. The crazy one who said that their child’s brought to themselves is a Likud member, which is Netanyahu’s party, traditionally a right party and in the last few years far right.
 
Annihilate Now! said:


Absolutely mental
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"Any word of the street?". Jesus wept. Hamas was able to catch the entirety of the IDF with their pants down, but somehow this guy feels it necessary to ask if they were sharing their plans with all Palestinians around the world.

I'd love to hear her response to that. Some strongly worded pushback would not be out of order.
 
Mike Smalling said:
"Any word of the street?". Jesus wept. Hamas was able to catch the entirety of the IDF with their pants down, but somehow this guy feels it necessary to ask if they were sharing their plans with all Palestinians around the world.

I'd love to hear her response to that. Some strongly worded pushback would not be out of order.
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The man just loves to hear his own stupid voice, always asking stupid questions.
 
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