Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

 

[sullydnl]

 

[Gehrman]

Im always a bit confused about the IDF sending down flyers about where they intend to strike where they believe Hamas resides. I mean i dont believe Hamas are a supremely intelligent bunch but surely they will just evacuate with the civilian population and mingle into them?

 

[Raoul]

Im always a bit confused about the IDF sending down flyers about where they intend to strike where they believe Hamas resides. I mean i dont believe Hamas are a supremely intelligent bunch but surely they will just evacuate with the civilian population and mingle into them?

A sizeable number of them are probably underground since they will need to stay alive if a ground invasion starts. They need ordinary Palestinian civilians to remain in place as human shields; a well known Hamas tactic.

 

[Gehrman]

A sizeable number of them are probably underground since they will need to stay alive if a ground invasion starts. They need ordinary Palestinian civilians to remain in place as human shields; a well known Hamas tactic.

But obviously when the ground invasion starts mingling with the refugees is far more intelligent than going out in a blaze of glory.

 

[VorZakone]

I'm halfway, but this DW doc seems pretty good.

 

[Drizzle]

Im always a bit confused about the IDF sending down flyers about where they intend to strike where they believe Hamas resides. I mean i dont believe Hamas are a supremely intelligent bunch but surely they will just evacuate with the civilian population and mingle into them?

I mean, it's a cursory nod to international law. Russia doesn't do it for example.

But clearly if you don't give people enough time or safe passage then it's just not good enough to say the least.

But worth pointing out that even now Israel is not fully gloves off. And no, I am fully against this campaign, but I'm just stating facts.

 

[Plastic Evra]

It's hardly surprising considering the Israelis are a regional extension of the US.

I would imagine mostly in line with Soviet tradition, historical allies & ideological Marxism-Leninism.

 

[Drizzle]

When do we start referring to them as terrorists?

Who? Israel? Yes you can call them terrorists.

You can also call Hamas terrorists, and I assume even you do(?).

Russia, killer of 10,000 Ukrainian civilians? Terrorists. The US, killer of 10 times more Arabs than Israel since 2001 - also terrorists? I don't know.

 

[jadaba]

I mean, it's a cursory nod to international law. Russia doesn't do it for example.

But clearly if you don't give people enough time or safe passage then it's just not good enough to say the least.

But worth pointing out that even now Israel is not fully gloves off. And no, I am fully against this campaign, but I'm just stating facts.

I'm not sure if they've done it in Ukraine, but Russia has done it in Aleppo before it flattened the city.

 

[Raoul]

But obviously when the ground invasion starts mingling with the refugees is far more intelligent than going out in a blaze of glory.

One would think the civilians will be allowed to leave through Rafa by then since there isn’t any food, water, housing, or electricity for them to stay in Gaza much longer. This will of course require an evacuation plan involving multiple countries since Sisi doesn’t seem to want 2 million Palestinian refugees. It would therefore probably require some sort of multinational evacuation to multiple countries capable of hosting them.

 

[NicolaSacco]

One would think the civilians will be allowed to leave through Rafa by then since there isn’t any food, water, housing, or electricity for them to stay in Gaza much longer. This will of course require an evacuation plan involving multiple countries since Sisi doesn’t seem to want 2 million Palestinian refugees. It would therefore probably require some sort of multinational evacuation to multiple countries capable of hosting them.

Has that been suggested as a possibility, even a temporary one, by the Egyptians?

 

[Wibble]

This post largely echoes my views, though I disagree with the last bit. There doesn't seem to be any evidence of either Iran or Russia actively involved in the attack.

Yet you know both were involved. Iran almost certainly the main mover.

 

[jadaba]

There was an agreement to allow foreigners in Gaza to evacuate until 5PM but now Sky News Arabia is reporting that Egypt is refusing to allow Americans to pass through the Rafah crossing unless Israel allows humanitarian aid to pass into Gaza.



(Translation: Our correspondent: Egypt refused to allow American citizenship holders to pass through the Rafah crossing except with an agreement that includes the entry of aid into the Gaza)

There's been other reports that it's preventing all foreign citizens from passing through, not just Americans.

 

[Kaos]

There was an agreement to allow foreigners in Gaza to evacuate until 5PM but now Sky News Arabia is reporting that Egypt is refusing to allow Americans to pass through the Rafah crossing unless Israel allows humanitarian aid to pass into Gaza.



(Translation: Our correspondent: Egypt refused to allow American citizenship holders to pass through the Rafah crossing except with an agreement that includes the entry of aid into the Gaza)

There's been other reports that it's preventing all foreign citizens from passing through, not just Americans.

This is the stand they take? A bit odd considering these US passport holders are most likely aid workers and volunteers themselves?

 

[owlo]

Yet you know both were involved. Iran almost certainly the main mover.

Not according to most analysis I've seen of the evidence thus far. The US have specifically said this.

 

[Wibble]

Not according to most analysis I've seen of the evidence thus far. The US have specifically said this.

Only because they don't want conflict with Iran as well. If it were true why have they blocked Qatar releasing 6bn in oil revenue?

 

[Camy89]

The only problem being one side are called terrorists for what they do and another are considered heroes and well funded/equipped and supported by almost all major powers.

Yes. That’s why I mentioned that media and international ties blur the morality significantly. I’m on holiday at the moment and the US coverage is so biased toward Israel that it’s difficult to watch. Having a truly neutral party in this is pretty much impossible. Misinformation and twisted truths are particularly rife which is frustrating.

Then what you can do is read up on it.

Well I plan to, to inform myself. Can’t discern the tone of this reply, but wasn’t inviting any anger, hence why I stated my position at the start.

 

[jadaba]

Has that been suggested as a possibility, even a temporary one, by the Egyptians?

This morning, Egypt was reinforcing the Rafah crossing by building a concrete wall.

It's been very strongly dismissed as an option to even be considered, Sisi himself has said that Palestinians must remain in Gaza no matter the sacrifices they make, while Al Azhar explicitly said that it's better for Palestinians to die in Gaza than to leave.

It's not only a substantial security concern for Egypt and especially in North Sinai which has been ravaged by terrorism over the past decade, but perhaps more importantly there's the wide assumption that if Palestinians are moved out of Gaza, their 'temporary' relocation would become permanent, and they'd never be able to return. Egypt, or any other country in the region, would see itself as enabling another Nakba.

 

[Pintu]

This is the stand they take? A bit odd considering these US passport holders are most likely aid workers and volunteers themselves?

Aid workers with nothing to hand out…

Egypt refusal to allow Palestinian refugees on its soil is inhuman… But they want to balance it out with help on site but since Israel threatens to bomb everything entering Gaza, they can’t do that. This is a way to pressure (blackmail) the US into pressuring Israel to act less criminally in this instance.

 

[fergieisold]

In spite of the overwhelming propaganda and blackmail going on, there are still many in Europe willing to manifest to oppose mass murder and ethnic cleansing. (Even though it might be mostly Muslims -who probably wouldn’t care as much about other cases of ethnic cleansing-)

Is this a protest to condemn Hamas? Or just Israel? I’ll pay more attention to this lot once they take their heads out of the sand.

 

[NicolaSacco]

This morning, Egypt was reinforcing the Rafah crossing by building a concrete wall.

It's been very strongly dismissed as an option to even be considered, Sisi himself has said that Palestinians must remain in Gaza no matter the sacrifices they make, while Al Azhar explicitly said that it's better for Palestinians to die in Gaza than to leave.

It's not only a substantial security concern for Egypt and especially in North Sinai which has been ravaged by terrorism over the past decade, but perhaps more importantly there's the wide assumption that if Palestinians are moved out of Gaza, their 'temporary' relocation would become permanent, and they'd never be able to return. Egypt, or any other country in the region, would see itself as enabling another Nakba.

Yep, I thought that might be the case. It's a lose-lose scenario for Egypt. I wonder what would happen though, if things got so crowded and desperate at the border that it ended up being rushed by thousands of Palestinians. I can't see Sisi wanting to be the guy who used the army to keep Palestinians effectively imprisoned, it would be awful optics.

 

[space]

It's a protest to free Palestine

 

[Pintu]

It's not only a substantial security concern for Egypt and especially in North Sinai which has been ravaged by terrorism over the past decade, but perhaps more importantly there's the wide assumption that if Palestinians are moved out of Gaza, their 'temporary' relocation would become permanent, and they'd never be able to return. Egypt, or any other country in the region, would see itself as enabling another Nakba.

Mass deportation is a war crime… And I’m pretty sure many will consider it such in the future... Specially in democracies.

Politicians in Germany, UK, France (not the US, where it is much harder to hold politicians accountable for foreign policy related crimes) might get tried for aiding the ongoing ethnic cleansing (possible genocide, if Gazawis aren’t displaced/deported to safety).


Deportation is horrendous. But it is still less so than Genocide… Israel is not going to back down. This is a golden opportunity of erasing the threat of Gaza once and for all… the alternative to mass deportation is genocide.

And Egypt will be complicit in this genocide if it happens on their watch while they keep the doors closed.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Just watched a video broadcast by CNN of the aftermath of an Hamas terrorist throwing a grenade into an overpopulated bomb shelter. Truly sickening. It's not surprising that images such as these, and hundreds more like them, has galvanised Israeli society towards this hellish retaliation. Vengeance as a sort of patriotic duty. I don't think there's any appetite for any lasting restraint at all and it's fecking terrifying.

 

[Pintu]

Is this a protest to condemn Hamas? Or just Israel? I’ll pay more attention to this lot once they take their heads out of the sand.

Have you asked those who manifest in support of Israel to condemn the 56 years long Apartheid system and the numerous war crimes related, or does this “nuance obligation” only apply to those who stand in solidarity with the Palestinian children ?

 

[dinostar77]

BBC Verify has confirmed women and young children were killed when a strike hit their vehicles as they headed away from northern Gaza on the 'safe' route.

Analysis of images from the scene show some of those who died were aged between two and five.

(this is murder of women and children. disgusting, israel shouldnt be allowed to get away with this under the pretense of collatoral damage or some other rubbish).

 

[fergieisold]

Have you asked those who manifest in support of Israel to condemn the 56 years long Apartheid system and the numerous war crimes related, or does this “nuance obligation” only apply to those who stand in solidarity with the Palestinian children ?

All I’m pointing out is the free Palestine lot in some parts have lost their minds. They’re completely blind to what Hamas did and in some cases even potentially committing terror offences.

I haven’t yet seen Israelis out on the street celebrating what their country is doing to Gaza at the moment.

 

[The United]

Really interesting listening to him for the most part but he makes a least one obviously contradictory point. If there's no food or water why would it take months to clear the area of hamas - they need food and water too.

I think what he was saying that it will be bad for civilians there with no food or water or power while the Israeli seige the city for months. And people here has been saying that Hamas stored those in the tunnels to be able to resist them for a long time. So what he said makes sense in that sense unless I misunderstood your point or his here.

 

[Kaos]

All I’m pointing out is the free Palestine lot in some parts have lost their minds. They’re completely blind to what Hamas did and in some cases even potentially committing terror offences.

I haven’t yet seen Israelis out on the street celebrating what their country is doing to Gaza at the moment.

They're no strangers to this either, been sitting back and watching the bombs drop on Gazans for years now with absolute glee.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing

 

[MDFC Manager]

BBC Verify has confirmed women and young children were killed when a strike hit their vehicles as they headed away from northern Gaza on the 'safe' route.

Analysis of images from the scene show some of those who died were aged between two and five.

(this is murder of women and children. disgusting, israel shouldnt be allowed to get away with this under the pretense of collatoral damage or some other rubbish).

Terrorists doing terrorism things.

 

[dinostar77]

All I’m pointing out is the free Palestine lot in some parts have lost their minds. They’re completely blind to what Hamas did and in some cases even potentially committing terror offences.

I haven’t yet seen Israelis out on the street celebrating what their country is doing to Gaza at the moment.

palestinians arent hamas and hamas arent palestinians. Theres a big difference. One is a country of persecuted and oppressed people and children. The other is a proxy for iran.

 

[Drizzle]

All I’m pointing out is the free Palestine lot in some parts have lost their minds. They’re completely blind to what Hamas did and in some cases even potentially committing terror offences.

I haven’t yet seen Israelis out on the street celebrating what their country is doing to Gaza at the moment.

They're not blind to it.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[VorZakone]

 

[That_Bloke]

Has that been suggested as a possibility, even a temporary one, by the Egyptians?

I don't think that the Egyptians want to go with it because they fear that the ones who have been evacuated of Gaza won't be allowed to come back.

A brilliant author who had a way with describing awful yet real events.

Yeah, that he was.

Anyone who wishes to know a bit more colonization and the mindset of the colonized should read his books.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[Raoul]

Has that been suggested as a possibility, even a temporary one, by the Egyptians?

Hard to say at this stage given he seems like a hard no at the moment. If it does happen it would require extensive back channel diplomacy between the US, Arab states and Sisi to provide him with assurances of what would happen next and on what timeline.

 

[JPRouve]

I don't think that the Egyptians want to go with it because they fear that the ones who have been evacuated of Gaza won't be allowed to come back.

Whoever take them will have them for good, ignoring future devastation the current one won't allow people to comeback before a while and when you consider the fact that we are talking about a population that is largely young, they will have spent a substantial part of their young life in their new place.

 

[jadaba]

Yep, I thought that might be the case. It's a lose-lose scenario for Egypt. I wonder what would happen though, if things got so crowded and desperate at the border that it ended up being rushed by thousands of Palestinians. I can't see Sisi wanting to be the guy who used the army to keep Palestinians effectively imprisoned, it would be awful optics.

It's possible that if it became even more extreme and unpalatable that the dynamic would change, but my own guess is that even in that scenario Sisi wouldn't be seen as an enabler in their imprisonment, but one who didn't buckle to the pressure of enabling their permanent displacement, and the optics within Egypt and the region would be positive. He would will be seeing this as an opportunity to use the fact that Gazans cannot go anywhere as a way of putting pressure on Israel to ensure restraint.