Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

We are with Israel and against the terrorists. Hamas has to be eliminated. The good Palestinians should help eliminate Hamas, as most good Muslims have helped eliminate ISIS.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...gaza?page=with:block-65271a438f0889b52d8c256e

Biden: Hamas attack on Israel 'deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust'

Joe Biden addressed a round table of Jewish leaders in Washington on Wednesday, where he described the bloody assault on Israel by Hamas as "the deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust”.

The US president said Saturday’s attack was “sheer evil” and a “campaign of pure cruelty against the Jewish people”.

“Silence is complicity,” Biden said. “I refuse to be silent”. He said he had spoken again today with Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and that the US is “surging” additional military assistance to the Israel Defense Forces.
 
calodo2003 said:
Apologies if already posted. Concerned for this cat's health...

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Seems like massive failure of intelligence on behalf of the Israelis if this was being planned in this detail for two years and they didn't have a clue.
 
My god this is all so depressing. I don’t want to believe the dead babies, im just going to put my head in the sand and not listen. I don’t want to believe what Israel are going to do to Gaza, or the pain it will cause everyone but hamas. And I don’t want to think of every parent and child worried about their family in the region.
 
wr8_utd said:
Seems like massive failure of intelligence on behalf of the Israelis if this was being planned in this detail for two years and they didn't have a clue.
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Because the Hamas fighters themselves didn’t know until 30 minutes before apparently.
 
Raoul said:
Because the Hamas fighters themselves didn’t know until 30 minutes before apparently.
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Yup, got that bit but surely the fact that they were building up huge amounts of ammunition, both imported and manufactured, at large scale, should have been something there would be whispers about if there was a credible intelligence network? I'm absolutely no expert on this subject but it seems strange that they have such little knowledge of such a large scale attack being in the works.
 
Raoul said:
Good stuff. Basically reinforces everything the Israelis have been saying about Hamas all along.

Also fascinating that these guys think a hostage swap will in any way beneficial to Hamas, since the Israelis are going into Gaza either way.
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It’s like they live in an alternate reality. They are relatively safe right now and probably feel confident ready to kill some tanks and cause some death, air strikes won’t hurt them much, but they will quickly change their tune when 250 paladins and 50 mlrs roar at them. Israel isn’t caring at this point. There ain’t gonna be a hamas or Gaza left for the hostages to return to at this rate.
 
JPRouve said:
I was thinking about that but extended it to Israel. There isn't actually much direct reports from the most affected places, it seems to be second, third or fourth hand reports.
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Its cause only the western English speaking media has been allowed into the affected regions in Israel by the IDF; no Hebrew speaking local media has been allowed; at least till a couple of days ago if I'm not wrong. I don't think I've seen a first hand report from any of them either.
 
wr8_utd said:
Yup, got that bit but surely the fact that they were building up huge amounts of ammunition, both imported and manufactured, at large scale, should have been something there would be whispers about if there was a credible intelligence network? I'm absolutely no expert on this subject but it seems strange that they have such little knowledge of such a large scale attack being in the works.
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It’s possible that all the Hamas fighters were simply told it was routine training until just before the attack. It’s the only scenario that makes sense since the Israelis have almost certainly deeply infiltrated Gaza both in terms of on the ground sources as well as listening to calls and messaging apps.
 
VorZakone said:
Mood among Israeli troops:
Across southern Israel, Israeli soldiers said they were ready, even impatient, to fight. “I’ll give it to you straight,” said a soldier who declined to give his name. “I am looking for revenge. We are all out for revenge.”
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https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-ea...p22d9mjuytqynh5&reflink=article_copyURL_share
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That is a grim read. Feels like invasion is just around the corner with Israel pounding almost 2500 targets already in last 3 days.

https://news.sky.com/story/how-hama...ground-assault-on-israel-gaza-border-12982643

Video of Hamas practicing blowing up the fences. This is intelligence failure of epic proportions considering the perceived reputation of Israel intelligence network.

530k strength of IDF at the moment after reservists reinforcements



 
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wr8_utd said:
Seems like massive failure of intelligence on behalf of the Israelis if this was being planned in this detail for two years and they didn't have a clue.
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It's breathtaking to consider how much of an unmitigated debacle the Israeli intelligence apparatus is if they somehow didn't have a clue about Saturday or compartmentalized the info & didn't get it in front of the correct political shot caller.
 
owlo said:
It’s like they live in an alternate reality. They are relatively safe right now and probably feel confident ready to kill some tanks and cause some death, air strikes won’t hurt them much, but they will quickly change their tune when 250 paladins and 50 mlrs roar at them. Israel isn’t caring at this point. There ain’t gonna be a hamas or Gaza left for the hostages to return to at this rate.
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Yes, it speaks to the Hamas mindset that they rather delusionally thought they could murder and kidnap about 1300 Israelis and get out of trouble in the end with a simple hostage swap, when the Israelis are clearly looking at this as a way to finally rid themselves of the Hamas threat. This is reinforced by their spokesmen on tv who constantly talk about “removing Hamas’ military capability” (a subtle way of saying they’re going in to dismantle Hamas).
 
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PRESIDENT GEORGE H.W. BUSH: They had kids in incubators, and they were thrown out of the incubators, so that Kuwait could be systematically dismantled.
 
Amarsdd said:
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To be honest at this moment, its either dead babies or dead beheaded babies. I am not sure if people should be fighting over which version of those 2 is correct.

But i do standby by my earlier comment, a lot of twitter handles are trying way too hard to make it sound like its all propaganda against Hamas. Some are being posted here and it should be avoided. At this moment, twitter is flooded by so called “blue marks” doing their utmost to discredit every brutality committed by Hamas in this attack. And its full of other side propaganda as well.

Lets keep it to main media network to avoid getting dragged into this misinformation warfare
 


At around 22 minutes, Mr Mustafa who is Secretary General of Palestinian National Initiative, basically accuses Egypt of colluding with Israel and the plan being Gaza strip annexed to Egypt.
 
pratyush_utd said:
To be honest at this moment, its either dead babies or dead beheaded babies. I am not sure if people should be fighting over which version of those 2 is correct.

But i do standby by my earlier comment, a lot of twitter handles are trying way too hard to make it sound like its all propaganda against Hamas. Some are being posted here and it should be avoided. At this moment, twitter is flooded by so called “blue marks” doing their utmost to discredit every brutality committed by Hamas in this attack. And its full of other side propaganda as well.

Lets keep it to main media network to avoid getting dragged into this misinformation warfare
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I totally agree with your first paragraph. But for the bolded part; idk about twitter, but here in this thread, its just about being careful that its not propaganda to justity Israel's war crime and what could be a genocide. Someone in the last couple of pages gave a good example of what difference those facts vs propagandized version of it makes
 
pratyush_utd said:


At around 22 minutes, Mr Mustafa who is Secretary General of Palestinian National Initiative, basically accuses Egypt of colluding with Israel and the plan being Gaza strip annexed to Egypt.
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This is so so so horrible. Look at those kids with blood all over their faces in shock. wtf is wrong with this world.
 
YouOnlyLiveTwice said:
This is so so so horrible. Look at those kids with blood all over their faces in shock. wtf is wrong with this world.
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I remember a time when children were protected. Even if they are children of the enemy, they were never touched. They are and will always be innocent. The time we live in now allows children to die like they are garbage. They are of no value in this evil political game.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
I remember a time when children were protected. Even if they are children of the enemy, they were never touched. They are and will always be innocent. The time we live in now allows children to die like they are garbage. They are of no value in this evil political game.
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That can happen only when both sides look at each other like humans. The laws of war can be defined, but cannot be enforced when people just want to see the blood of their enemies, however barbaric their actions are. Seems like animal instinct takes over.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
That can happen only when both sides look at each other like humans. The laws of war can be defined, but cannot be enforced when people just want to see the blood of their enemies, however barbaric their actions are. Seems like animal instinct takes over.
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That land will always be cursed. Nobody can live in peace in a land whose soil is saturated with the blood of children. I never want to set foot anywhere near there.
 
So here I am thinking, "President Biden said the reports of beheaded babies must be true. He's probably been shown terrible photos in the Secure Room. How horrible."

When actually, he was going off a "trust me bro" from actual US president Bibi



One day we'll see the Kompromat Israel has on the American public because this is reaching Seinfeld levels of insane
 
Amir said:
There has been no effort to solve the conflict ever since Ehud Olmert left his office as PM in 2009. Netanyahu has no interest in peace, just delaying and putting a halt to the two-state solution. That is why the PA was, as you said, marginalized by the Israeli govenment. Netanyahu's concept was that if you strengthen Gaza - and Hamas - as a second palestenian entity, then you can't really be expected to make an effort towards a two-state solution as you have two different palestenian authurities, in the West Bank and his Gaza.

Needless to say, the entire country is now paying the price for Netanyahu's idiotic stance.

I'm not at all certain that Rabin was going to remain as PM after the 1996 elections. There was a strong chance that he would have lost to Netanyahu due to the terror strikes in Israel during those years. But yes, his murder absolutely killed it.

Having said that, let's face it - Arafat was a terrorist himself. Maybe he was trying to change and make an effort toward something different. But eventually, he returnd to his old ways.
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Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer.

I knew at the time that Rabin faced a stong internal opposition which made his move towards peace even more courageous. His death still came as a shock. Arafat was certainly not a saint (understatement) but I think that had Rabin been not assassinated, things might've turned out very differently. We'll never know.

When the dust settles and assuming the conflict doesn't become a regional one, questions will be asked. It could very well lead to Netanyahu stepping down and the fall of his government, and if/when the Hamas is destroyed, that could also bring back the PA in the foreground. If that was the case, do you see any Israeli leader with enough political pull at the moment capable of correcting the course? Would the Israeli population support it? I'm obviously not speaking in the next months, the shock will certainly have not worn off, but in the next few years.


Found an interview of Ian Bremmer posted two days ago, which I think gives a fair assessment of the current situation. Your opinion on it?




Stay safe.
 
Laurencio said:
I never said the problem wasn't of their own creation. I don't think they should invade either, but I think they will.
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They have absolutely no other choice. No matter why and how it came to this, it's an act of war. They're going in.

What becomes of Gaza or even the West bank after that, no one knows. Not even the Israeli.
 
Hearing an interview, most people in Gaza have never seen an Israeli in their life, because of how well-policed the border and buffer zone around it are, and the restrictions around it have been in place since 1991 and much more since 2005. Their maximum contact with outside has been with surveillance drones which can be heard 24/7.
 
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Laurencio said:
This entire situation is just tragic. Tragic for Israeli civilians, tragic for Palestinians and tragic for everyone who have been working om a two state solution. Gazans are trapped in a cage with no way out, just waiting to be killed. It is unconscionable.

It's so hard to see a solution. Even if Israel gave back the West Bank territories, and with billions of aid money for infrastructure and development, the challenges of building and maintaining a functioning Palestinian state are enormous.
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As are the costs of the occupation, the latter also being economically much less sustainable in the long-term. Unless the intent is to slowly encroach and annex the palestinian territories until there's nothing left, even if it takes decades. Without the $3 billions dollars the US provide yearly, and that's not counting the military aid, I don't think that Israel would've been able to maintain the occupation or lead so many wars, despite its strong economy and military.

I wouldn't be surprised if Gaza will simply be de facto annexed at the end of this war.
 
Cloud7 said:
How strongly does MBS feel about the need to stop said war crimes?

Is the US relationship with SA strong/necessary enough for the US to tell Israel they need to stop? Or is this just lip service?
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Lip service. Nobody actually did anything about the war crimes in Yemen and the favour will be returned here.
 
Sweet Square said:
PRESIDENT GEORGE H.W. BUSH: They had kids in incubators, and they were thrown out of the incubators, so that Kuwait could be systematically dismantled.
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Exactly this. More bullshit about kids and babies. It deplorable. Unless its been investigated by a netural party i.e. the UN and they say that in their reports. Then its just bullshit ala gulf war.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
I remember a time when children were protected. Even if they are children of the enemy, they were never touched. They are and will always be innocent. The time we live in now allows children to die like they are garbage. They are of no value in this evil political game.
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What time was this, exactly. Have you had a brief look at human history?
 
MoskvaRed said:
Hitchens shouldn’t be taken seriously given his views on Putin


Peter Hitchens is a Daily.Mail columnist and a Putin apologist. I wouldn’t take a word he says seriously. That clip is from GB News by the way, a poor British imitation of Fox News.
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Which also had Aaron Bastani of Novara Media (big free Palestine person) on, which by all accounts had a thought debate between them.

I thought his view of Gaza could be like Dubai if not for Hama's wanting to do the things they do interesting
 
Speaking of the other side, here is the head of Hamas calling for a global jihad against Jews. Not just Israeli. That's going to cost innocent lives around the world.

From his office in Qatar. Qatar better get their act together and get some sportswashing projects sorted around the world to cover up the fact they're directly sponsoring murdering terrorists and fomenting war and destruction.

Edit: deleted a tweet because it was from a confirmed racist.

Oh, and re lobbying, for those that speak darkly about the Israeli lobby and zionist influence in the USA, are you also going to speak of this secret Arab conspiracy too?
 
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