Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Super Hans said:
Wait, you're not saying Palestinians are solely responsible for the failure of negotiations to reach final settlement, surely?

Both blacks in South Africa and Palestinians live/lived under apartheid. No two situations can possibly be identical, but it's clearly analogous.
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No, both sides obviously share responsibility. Since then, mostly Israel. But the Palestinians did feck it up at that point.

I'm fine with apartheid used to describe both. The cause and security concerns of the apartheid are where they differ. In an ideal world, if Palestinians were not a lethal threat, I'd love to see them thrive as a state next to Israel. I'd even throw in Bibi for free, so they have a pinata for the town square.
 
owlo said:
That's an incredibly stupid take. Why would they do that, when they have terrain to clear for a huge and dangerous impending ground attack?
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Coming from you it's a compliment, thank you.
 
Conor said:
Why is this notion of revenge completely acceptable at a nation level by so many people? Why is it that Israel are just completely justified in rinsing Gaza to kingdom come now, is there no bar that we are holding modern, wealthy, 1st world societies to?

If you asked any of these people in everyday life if someone should be allowed kill a person that murdered one of their family members, I feel like most would say no, they should go to prison. But a regional superpower is deserving of overshadowing anything that happened in their country, because why?
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Gaza complicates things because it's essentially an Israeli prison, while also being part of a separate state, and also a rogue terrorist state (Hamas governs the tetritory). It makes everything extremely messy.

Hamas' actions constitute an act of war, no question, and Israel have declared war on Hamas and the "rogue state" of Gaza. There are very few real limits put upon their ability to fight a war, with most of them having to do with unreasonably targeting civilian targets, hopsitals and NGOs. Some of which Israel are in violation of. The problem here is that Hamas doesn't respect those rules of engagement, that responsibility isn't just on one side, and fire rockets from these buildings. Which means Israel can argue that Hamas committed the war crime (it's a bit more complicated, but essentially).

While it is problematic that Israel have begun a full siege of Gaza it's not necessarily a war crime - yet. If they flat out refuse the possibility of a humanitarian corridor that will be a problem, but they are supposedly negotiating this with Egypt and the US (thus not flat out rejecting it). As of now they are denying transport of goods from their country to an enemy - which is within their "right".

Any building, with notable exceptions, that houses military equipment used to attack Israel is essentially fair game. Israel only has to limit civilian casualties to a reasonable degree and not purposefully target civilian infrastructure, ie things that isn't used by the military.

With the exception of their bombing of the UN hospital and in practice, but not directly, cutting off their water supply, they haven't actually committed any war crimes.
 
Hamas cut 29 holes in a "smart" fence described as impenetrable and has watch towers/observation posts every few hundred yards, manned by the IDF


Let that sink in. Wtf were the IDF doing?
 
Traub said:
Damn straight. Just dead babies murdered at point blank range doesn’t dehumanise the enemy - that’s perfectly acceptable.

The way many of the people in this thread have somehow managed to use dead babies being decapitated vs ‘just’ murdered as the line across which Hamas’s actions are considered barbaric is equally laughable and pathetic.

You can easily say that Israel’s retaliation is completely unacceptable without trying to twist Hamas’s disgusting actions. But we rather have people in this thread posting every tweet they can find - we somehow have a better management of which tweets are allowed in a pointless football transfer thread.
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Strawman.
 
DickDastardly said:
Serious question incoming:

I have a family trip planned to Egypt in 2 weeks, with the wife and kids. 2 days in Cairo, the rest Nile cruise.

It's with a agency from Egypt, a sort of private tour.

Should we go?
Anyone from Egypt? What's the situation?
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@adexkola I think is (apologies if I've got the wrong person)
 
Israel has committed war crimes in Gaza and the siege and indiscriminate bombing will effectively lead to the genocide of 2 million people.

If this was Russia who had Ukrainians in an open prison camp, starved of water, fuel, food, medicines and other basic civilities, I wonder how many of you would still be telling us about ‘Russia’s right to defend themselves.’
 
DickDastardly said:
Serious question incoming:

I have a family trip planned to Egypt in 2 weeks, with the wife and kids. 2 days in Cairo, the rest Nile cruise.

It's with a agency from Egypt, a sort of private tour.

Should we go?
Anyone from Egypt? What's the situation?
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@Avatar is Egyptian.
 
DickDastardly said:
Serious question incoming:

I have a family trip planned to Egypt in 2 weeks, with the wife and kids. 2 days in Cairo, the rest Nile cruise.

It's with a agency from Egypt, a sort of private tour.

Should we go?
Anyone from Egypt? What's the situation?
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You should be fine. Egypt are very unlikely to get dragged into this conflict. And if they do, the problems would be localised to the Sinai border, which is miles away from where you'd be. I say go and enjoy.

Only countries I would avoid (besides obviously Israel) are Lebanon and Syria (not sure why you'd go there but there you go).
 
owlo said:
No, both sides obviously share responsibility. Since then, mostly Israel. But the Palestinians did feck it up at that point.

I'm fine with apartheid used to describe both. The cause and security concerns of the apartheid are where they differ. In an ideal world, if Palestinians were not a lethal threat, I'd love to see them thrive as a state next to Israel. I'd even throw in Bibi for free, so they have a pinata for the town square.
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Which negotiations did they feck up in your opinion?
 
DickDastardly said:
Serious question incoming:

I have a family trip planned to Egypt in 2 weeks, with the wife and kids. 2 days in Cairo, the rest Nile cruise.

It's with a agency from Egypt, a sort of private tour.

Should we go?
Anyone from Egypt? What's the situation?
Click to expand...

Come and enjoy your time. We're fine.
 
Kaos said:
By all means stand up against your oppressive regime, but personally I find it a bit pathetic to start championing the US (who overthrew your democratically elected leader Mossadegh if you recall, and sided with Saddam during the Iraq-Iran war) and cheerleading for Israel, an apartheid nation.

I have the same issue with my fellow Kurds who don't see the hypocrisy of championing Israel.
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It's really interesting how Mossadegh has more fans among Westerners than actually in Iran. He was a neo-communist (Who was by the way, never "elected". As a prime minister, he was appointed by the parliament and approval of the Shah based on the rules of constitutional monarchy) and the grandson of Qajar elite (perhaps the second most incompetent regime in history of Iran after Islamic Republic). The white revolution which was done on Shah's order which gave lands to peasants, gave women the right to vote (first country in Middle East), resulted in a great redistribution of wealth to Iran's working class, explosive economic growth in subsequent decades, rapid urbanization, and deconstruction of Iran's feudalist customs was all done long after that "coup". Iran become much more prosperous after Mossadegh' ouster as Prime Minister, and further down the line appointment of Hoveida.

Re: Saddam...Gazzans love Saddam. Here is Saddam square in Gazza, while in Israel they have "Cyrus the great street" ...

CUDRVpX.png


As for Apartheid state...I care about one thing personally because as a nation we have zero time for sentimentalism after 44 years of misery where all of our taxes, and money from sale of our natural resources (Oil, Gas) has gone to Palestine instead of Iran as we've become poorer and poorer as a nation (7:1 exchange rate of our currency to USD in Shah's time vs. 42,000:1 now)....We want nothing to do with Palestine anymore. Not our problem!

Who hates Iranian people and would gladly murder them with no mercy so their sugar-daddy sponsor can stay in power? Hamas and their supporters
Who loves Hamas? Islamic Republic Regime who's the root cause of our plight
Who is ready to absolutely level Hamas? Israel

These monsters just murdered another 16-year old via their morality police (She has been in a coma for 10 days, but reports coming last hour that she's died)...Another Mahsa...spare me of outrage! whenever Gazzans and Palestinians stop supporting the evil regime that rule Iran and care about our youth being murdered, I'll spare them sympathy.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/05/armita-geravand-iran-cctv
 
The Corinthian said:
Israel has committed war crimes in Gaza and the siege and indiscriminate bombing will effectively lead to the genocide of 2 million people.

If this was Russia who had Ukrainians in an open prison camp, starved of water, fuel, food, medicines and other basic civilities, I wonder how many of you would still be telling us about ‘Russia’s right to defend themselves.’
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I think most posters on here find the situation in Gaza horrific. Having said that, Ukraine did not launch terror attacks in Russia so it’s not an appropriate analogy - the Moscow bombings in the early 2000s carried out by “Chechens” (or the FSB) would be a more similar example and in that case no one in the West really gave a toss when Grozny was flattened. So it could be worse in terms of Western attention, grim as that sounds.
 
MoskvaRed said:
I think most posters on here find the situation in Gaza horrific. Having said that, Ukraine did not launch terror attacks in Russia so it’s not an appropriate analogy - the Moscow bombings in the early 2000s carried out by “Chechens” (or the FSB) would be a more similar example and in that case no one in the West really gave a toss when Grozny was flattened. So it could be worse in terms of Western attention, grim as that sounds.
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So Israel’s response is justified in your eyes? Effectively killing 2 million Palestinians, the overwhelming majority of them non combatants, and not affiliated with Hamas is a reasonable response based on the attack perpetrated by Hamas?

Edit: sorry about my tone - I know you’re not saying what I’ve said in my post and it’s more about the clunky analogy.
 
DickDastardly said:
Serious question incoming:

I have a family trip planned to Egypt in 2 weeks, with the wife and kids. 2 days in Cairo, the rest Nile cruise.

It's with a agency from Egypt, a sort of private tour.

Should we go?
Anyone from Egypt? What's the situation?
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My sister flew into Cairo this morning. Says everything looks calm. The hotel workers/cabbies/etc aren't fussed at all.
 
The Corinthian said:
So Israel’s response is justified in your eyes? Effectively killing 2 million Palestinians, the overwhelming majority of them non combatants, and not affiliated with Hamas is a reasonable response based on the attack perpetrated by Hamas?

Edit: sorry about my tone - I know you’re not saying what I’ve said in my post and it’s more about the clunky analogy.
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Absolutely not justified (and no need to apologise - this is an incredibly raw topic). You’re fundamentally right that there are double standards at play over Palestine and Ukraine, and that includes me unfortunately - I feel more involved over the latter whereas with Palestine I suppose I tune out in a sense of numb fatalism until something dramatic happens like last weekend.
 
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The Corinthian said:
So Israel’s response is justified in your eyes? Effectively killing 2 million Palestinians, the overwhelming majority of them non combatants, and not affiliated with Hamas is a reasonable response based on the attack perpetrated by Hamas?

Edit: sorry about my tone - I know you’re not saying what I’ve said in my post and it’s more about the clunky analogy.
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Look, you're getting ahead of yourself. There are no 2 million dead Palestinians, and it won't happen. But a siege + invasion will indeed inflict heavy casualties on Gaza's population and I agree with the sentiment that that should be avoided.
 
DickDastardly said:
Serious question incoming:

I have a family trip planned to Egypt in 2 weeks, with the wife and kids. 2 days in Cairo, the rest Nile cruise.

It's with a agency from Egypt, a sort of private tour.

Should we go?
Anyone from Egypt? What's the situation?
Click to expand...

Half the in laws are from Egypt, you'll be fine. The fighting is far from where you're going.
 
Hanks said:
It's really interesting how Mossadegh has more fans among Westerners than actually in Iran. He was a neo-communist (Who was by the way, never "elected". As a prime minister, he was appointed by the parliament and approval of the Shah based on the rules of constitutional monarchy) and the grandson of Qajar elite (perhaps the second most incompetent regime in history of Iran after Islamic Republic). The white revolution which was done on Shah's order which gave lands to peasants, gave women the right to vote (first country in Middle East), resulted in a great redistribution of wealth to Iran's working class, explosive economic growth in subsequent decades, rapid urbanization, and deconstruction of Iran's feudalist customs was all done long after that "coup". Iran become much more prosperous after Mossadegh' ouster as Prime Minister, and further down the line appointment of Hoveida.

Re: Saddam...Gazzans love Saddam. Here is Saddam square in Gazza, while in Israel they have "Cyrus the great street" ...

CUDRVpX.png


As for Apartheid state...I care about one thing personally because as a nation we have zero time for sentimentalism after 44 years of misery where all of our taxes, and money from sale of our natural resources (Oil, Gas) has gone to Palestine instead of Iran as we've become poorer and poorer as a nation (7:1 exchange rate of our currency to USD in Shah's time vs. 42,000:1 now)....We want nothing to do with Palestine anymore. Not our problem!

Who hates Iranian people and would gladly murder them with no mercy so their sugar-daddy sponsor can stay in power? Hamas and their supporters
Who loves Hamas? Islamic Republic Regime who's the root cause of our plight
Who is ready to absolutely level Hamas? Israel

These monsters just murdered another 16-year old via their morality police (She has been in a coma for 10 days, but reports coming last hour that she's died)...Another Mahsa...spare me of outrage! whenever Gazzans and Palestinians stop supporting the evil regime that rule Iran and care about our youth being murdered, I'll spare them sympathy.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/05/armita-geravand-iran-cctv
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Kaos is not western though?
 
VorZakone said:
Look, you're getting ahead of yourself. There are no 2 million dead Palestinians, and it won't happen. But a siege + invasion will indeed inflict heavy casualties on Gaza's population and I agree with the sentiment that that should be avoided.
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That's why I said effectively - what do you think will happen when food, water, medicine runs out, the borders are closed and you're being bombed to oblivion?
 
The Corinthian said:
That's why I said effectively - what do you think will happen when food, water, medicine runs out, the borders are closed and you're being bombed to oblivion?
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And you think Israel will continue that right up to the point where 2 million Palestinians have died?
 
The Corinthian said:
Israel has committed war crimes in Gaza and the siege and indiscriminate bombing will effectively lead to the genocide of 2 million people.

If this was Russia who had Ukrainians in an open prison camp, starved of water, fuel, food, medicines and other basic civilities, I wonder how many of you would still be telling us about ‘Russia’s right to defend themselves.’
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I am honestly appalled by the sheer hypocrisy displayed in just a matter of months. I vividly remember the Ukraine thread and the views on Russia and how everyone felt for Ukrainian people and rightly so. An year later, a genocide is being committed or about to be committed right before us by IDF but there are reasons I have been told.
 
The Corinthian said:
That's why I said effectively - what do you think will happen when food, water, medicine runs out, the borders are closed and you're being bombed to oblivion?
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2 million is an insanely high number, it would be shocking if it came anywhere near that. Tens of thousands at the most is more likely.

Not that it would be a good thing.
 
VorZakone said:
And you think Israel will continue that right up to the point where 2 million Palestinians have died?
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So what number do you think they'll stop at? Let's be honest, it's not about getting Hamas here - it's punishment for all of Gaza.
 
NicolaSacco said:
I was under the impression that Arafat rejected a two-state solution, over the Palestinian 'right to return'.
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Which is not a good reason for never trying again. Both peoples need to try and find a peaceful long-term agreement. It would be helpful if other nations, especially the most powerful, would share that ideal instead of supporting a military solution, which will only provide temporary respite, as the root cause will still remain, and likely be strengthened too.
 
Hanks said:
It's really interesting how Mossadegh has more fans among Westerners than actually in Iran. He was a neo-communist (Who was by the way, never "elected". As a prime minister, he was appointed by the parliament and approval of the Shah based on the rules of constitutional monarchy) and the grandson of Qajar elite (perhaps the second most incompetent regime in history of Iran after Islamic Republic). The white revolution which was done on Shah's order which gave lands to peasants, gave women the right to vote (first country in Middle East), resulted in a great redistribution of wealth to Iran's working class, explosive economic growth in subsequent decades, rapid urbanization, and deconstruction of Iran's feudalist customs was all done long after that "coup". Iran become much more prosperous after Mossadegh' ouster as Prime Minister, and further down the line appointment of Hoveida.

Re: Saddam...Gazzans love Saddam. Here is Saddam square in Gazza, while in Israel they have "Cyrus the great street" ...

CUDRVpX.png


As for Apartheid state...I care about one thing personally because as a nation we have zero time for sentimentalism after 44 years of misery where all of our taxes, and money from sale of our natural resources (Oil, Gas) has gone to Palestine instead of Iran as we've become poorer and poorer as a nation (7:1 exchange rate of our currency to USD in Shah's time vs. 42,000:1 now)....We want nothing to do with Palestine anymore. Not our problem!

Who hates Iranian people and would gladly murder them with no mercy so their sugar-daddy sponsor can stay in power? Hamas and their supporters
Who loves Hamas? Islamic Republic Regime who's the root cause of our plight
Who is ready to absolutely level Hamas? Israel

These monsters just murdered another 16-year old via their morality police (She has been in a coma for 10 days, but reports coming last hour that she's died)...Another Mahsa...spare me of outrage! whenever Gazzans and Palestinians stop supporting the evil regime that rule Iran and care about our youth being murdered, I'll spare them sympathy.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/05/armita-geravand-iran-cctv
Click to expand...

There have been people who I disagree with in this thread, but let me just say that you're pure fecking evil.
 
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