Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Jippy]

Bill Ackman is quite a cool dude. Eccentric as hell, smart as a button. Just likes to speak his mind and get involved. it’s not just this, he does loads of random cool stuff. Pretty sure he’s donated to Palestinians in the past

he’s obviously very pro Israel though.

A cursory google search doesn't throw any examples up.

 

[Drizzle]

And then they'll claim it's anti-semetic to say that Israel and Zionists have a large influence over American society. I can't ever imagine a similar response of an Israeli group in University celebrated the deaths of Palestinians or blamed them for their deaths. Or even any other Muslims in general.

Well firstly, you may struggle to find Israeli groups in western universities that organise meetings to celebrate slaughter.

Western campuses are actually one of the few areas of western society where the Palestinian cause is predominant and holds power and sway.

My own personal observation is that student politics are as extreme and simplistic as you'd expect from a group of teenagers, and the worst forms of murder apologism and conspiracy theories are often mainstream. I don't think it does the Palestinian cause any good at all when some of these fools idealise Hamas.

As for your comment about 'zionists' having a particular 'influence' over American society. That could be true. Other groups also have influence too, but that influence is not weaponized into toxic conspiracism.

 

[owlo]

A cursory google search doesn't throw any examples up.

Try looking up his speeches at charity dinners I guess or his foundation. He talks about the human and technological cost of terror and the economic struggles Palestinians face.

 

[Jippy]

Try looking up his speeches at charity dinners I guess or his foundation. He talks about the human and technological cost of terror and the economic struggles Palestinians face.

He's a big donor to Jewish causes, which is fair enough, but seen no evidence he does donate to Palestinian ones. Just blacklists students from there.

 

[owlo]

He's a big donor to Jewish causes, which is fair enough, but seen no evidence he does donate to Palestinian ones. Just blacklists students from there.

Here we go, as Fabrizio would say. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Portland_Trust is majority funded by The Pershing A
Square Foundation, which is majority funded by its two trustees, bill ackman and NerI oxman.

Im sure I could find more, which are slightly less obvious. And I’m sure you appreciate he probably doesn’t want to directly put his name on some.

 

[nickm]

If you need more understanding of the power imbalance, look at the wealth of the people making statements like the above.

Pity the plight of the Harvard graduate! Well not sure about that. One of the reasons rich people send their kids to Harvard is to get them access to these power networks. People there can hardly complain if those networks decide not to play.

 

[2cents]

No. It's the desire for jews to be able to be able to live in their ancestral home and have one country where they can feel safe.

There are extreme versions of zionism that have unacceptable aspects, but zionism itself is just that.

You can be a zionist and still strongly believe that Palestinians deserve nationhood too.

Most jews (not all) are one type of zionist or another in that they believe in Israel's right to exist.

The desire to paint zionism as a unique evil (often equated to apartheid or nazism by morons) is racist because most jews around the world feel a connection to Israel. Half of the world's small population live there, and many have family connections.

I've met one person who was comfortable using the word 'zio-bitch' (that idiot McKola used this term as well if i recall) but was outraged by the suggestion they were antisemitic. Yet that phrase will cause most Jewish women around the world, including the many that are peace-loving, two states supporting, or even mostly indifferent to Israel, to recoil in horror and fear.

The crimes of Israel, and there are crimes, are those of government, army and statehood, not ideology.

I agree that Zionism is not “white supremacism”. That appears to me to be a projection of the defining characteristics of an altogether different context onto the quite different circumstances of the modern Middle East.

I also agree that Zionism is, broadly speaking and in theory, a rather typical nationalist movement with its origins in the growth of nationalism in Central and Eastern Europe during the latter half of the nineteenth century. In that sense, its self-image is akin to any number of rival national liberation movements of that time, manifesting in the context of the dissolution of the Russian, Austro-Hungarian, and Ottoman Empires.

However, that is only half the story, as the era of the rise of European nationalism was also the era of the assumption of global European supremacy and imperialism. This wouldn’t have mattered in the case of Zionism any more than it mattered in the case of, say, Serbian nationalism, if it wasn’t for one major unique characteristic of Zionism - that it was the national movement of a dispersed people with its geographical focus on a land where almost none of them lived, that was also inhabited by another people about to experience their own burgeoning nationalism.

So while beyond perhaps the extreme fringes Zionism never developed a grand ideology of explicit anti-Arab racial inferiority along the lines of, say, the racial attitudes of white America vis-a-vis African Americans, it brought to Palestine certain assumptions regarding the hierarchy of civilization and the ranking of non-European peoples such as the Arabs within that hierarchy. And so it tended to treat the Arabs with a degree of indifference or contempt, the Arabs being expected to basically prostrate themselves before the more advanced civilization in the ways that so many subjects of empire had in the century or so before around the world. And in the practical circumstances that the early Zionist settlers found themselves in, they adopted the familiar methods of settler-colonialism, and were unapologetic about recognizing it as such at the time. That is the Zionism experienced by the Palestinians on the ground, not as an abstract theory of Jewish liberation but as a manifestation of European imperialism directed at them.

So Zionism is quite unique being in origin both a nationalist liberation movement in the classic European form, and also a settler-colonial movement in the classic imperialist form, whatever other developments may have complicated this picture since (e.g. the migration of Mizrachi Jews since 1948). Due to the well known saga of Jewish history, it can be very hard for Jews to understand Zionism as anything other than the former; but in the face of their day-to-day experiences of Zionism, it’s almost impossible for Palestinians to understand it as anything other than the latter (a major exception who we should all be reading at these times would be Edward Said who, from an acknowledged position of relative privilege, made a huge effort to attempt to understand the genuine appeal of Zionism for Jews).

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I’m not saying whether they do or don’t, but it’s just plain wrong to assume something like this because it fits with what you want to believe.

Trying to justify these actions with “Israel probably do the same” is quite distasteful.

Who is trying to justify it? You can be critical of multiple crimes. I mean 6K civilian death’s is absolutely shocking (I just came across this stat) and no amount of collateral talk can justify that. It doesn’t mean Hamas haven’t committed terrible atrocities this past week.

It's really not. I'm not going to excuse Israel, but Hamas purposefully use civilian buildings as weapon platforms in the most densely populated area in the world. Often times bombing a launchpad is the same as bombing a residential building or civic building. They have been found to launch rockets from schools and other vulnerable infrastructure such as hopsitals in the past.

Hamas sound like a detestable bunch. Same as Al Qaida or any other savage terrorist outfit. Does the Palestinian government support and aid them?

But why is that number not a concern or fishy? Why is it normalised for countries to murder 6K people and write it off as collateral to make it sound acceptable? I suppose I need to read up more on this. To my layman brain that kind of losa of innocent lives seems impossible to just put away as collateral and ignore.

 

[nickm]

Anyone revelling in the Hamas murders deserves opprobrium but I don't think you should define someone for life by their student politics.

People should be allowed to grow up. But it's a stain especially if you are at Harvard because you want to enter the top 0.1%, a group not particularly well known for its radicalism or its sense of humour.

They may be students but they are also adults accountable for their opinions.

 

[owlo]

Not sure where I fall on this; people are entitled to their views, but I retain the right not to want to hire them for those views. For example, I’d hire some in this thread for example, because I see empathy and intelligence in their views and they’d be unafraid of robust discussion. Others, I’d consider unhireable. These are nuances when you know people though, so people like ackman have every right to say feck you.

 

[Drizzle]

Let’s see what terror the Israeli terrorist cnuts inflict on Gaza today.

if humanitarian aid/corridor is not created, the death toll in Gaza will be huge…there is no way only 900 have been murdered so far if you look at the way the Israeli terrorist cnuts are just bombing everything.

Mate, read the room. The grown-ups are having a conversation here.

 

[Tibs]

Mate, read the room. The grown-ups are having a conversation here.

Deleted as my emotions/frustration got the better of me.

There must be a humanitarian corridor opened and aid flow in..

 

[Drizzle]

I agree that Zionism is not “white supremacism”. That appears to me to be a projection of the defining characteristics of an altogether different context onto the quite different circumstances of the modern Middle East.

I also agree that Zionism is, broadly speaking and in theory, a rather typical nationalist movement with its origins in the growth of nationalism in Central and Eastern Europe during the latter half of the nineteenth century. In that sense, its self-image is akin to any number of rival national liberation movements of that time, manifesting in the context of the dissolution of the Russian, Austro-Hungarian, and Ottoman Empires.

However, that is only half the story, as the era of the rise of European nationalism was also the era of the assumption of global European supremacy and imperialism. This wouldn’t have mattered in the case of Zionism any more than it mattered in the case of, say, Serbian nationalism, if it wasn’t for one major unique characteristic of Zionism - that it was the national movement of a dispersed people with its geographical focus on a land where almost none of them lived, that was also inhabited by another people about to experience their own burgeoning nationalism.

So while beyond perhaps the extreme fringes Zionism never developed a grand ideology of explicit anti-Arab racial inferiority along the lines of, say, the racial attitudes of white America vis-a-vis African Americans, it brought to Palestine certain assumptions regarding the hierarchy of civilization and the ranking of non-European peoples such as the Arabs within that hierarchy. And so it tended to treat the Arabs with a degree of indifference or contempt, the Arabs being expected to basically prostrate themselves before the more advanced civilization in the ways that so many subjects of empire had in the century or so before around the world. And in the practical circumstances that the early Zionist settlers found themselves in, they adopted the familiar methods of settler-colonialism, and were unapologetic about recognizing it as such at the time. That is the Zionism experienced by the Palestinians on the ground, not as an abstract theory of Jewish liberation but as a manifestation of European imperialism directed at them.

So Zionism is quite unique being in origin both a nationalist liberation movement in the classic European form, and also a settler-colonial movement in the classic imperialist form, whatever other developments may have complicated this picture since (e.g. the migration of Mizrachi Jews since 1948). Due to the well known saga of Jewish history, it can be very hard for Jews to understand Zionism as anything other than the former; but in the face of their day-to-day experiences of Zionism, it’s almost impossible for Palestinians to understand it as anything other than the latter (a major exception who we should all be reading at these times would be Edward Said who, from an acknowledged position of relative privilege, made a huge effort to attempt to understand the genuine appeal of Zionism for Jews).

That's a great post. And funnily enough I was going to post something from Edward Said on this matter. Which I will when I find it...

 

[Drizzle]

Deleted as my emotions/frustration got the better of me.

There must be a humanitarian corridor opened and aid flow in..

Fair enough, and I understand emotions are at boiling point on all sides.

 

[nickm]

Not sure where I fall on this; people are entitled to their views, but I retain the right not to want to hire them for those views. For example, I’d hire some in this thread for example, because I see empathy and intelligence in their views and they’d be unafraid of robust discussion. Others, I’d consider unhireable. These are nuances when you know people though, so people like ackman have every right to say feck you.

The sort of people who hire Harvard graduates are serious people who will interrogate the character of the people they hire. That's just the way it is.

 

[Laurencio]

Hamas sound like a detestable bunch. Same as Al Qaida or any other savage terrorist outfit. Does the Palestinian government support and aid them?

But why is that number not a concern or fishy? Why is it normalised for countries to murder 6K people and write it off as collateral to make it sound acceptable? I suppose I need to read up more on this. To my layman brain that kind of losa of innocent lives seems impossible to just put away as collateral and ignore.

There is no unified Palestinian government. The ruling "government" on the Gaza strip is Hamas.

6k isn't brushed off, Gaza itself is a huge humanitarian tragedy, but you have to understand the context and challenges that specific number is a result of. How does Hamas wage war? How many rockets are fired into Israel from Gaza? What is driving the calculus for which targets Israel destroys? How do they warn civilian populations? What enables Israel to ignore thousands of rockets (Iron Dome) and choose targets? How many people live within a single blast radius?

There are a number of things to consider. It should also be noted that without the Iron Dome, that number would be significantly higher.

 

[That_Bloke]

I agree that Zionism is not “white supremacism”. That appears to me to be a projection of the defining characteristics of an altogether different context onto the quite different circumstances of the modern Middle East.

I also agree that Zionism is, broadly speaking and in theory, a rather typical nationalist movement with its origins in the growth of nationalism in Central and Eastern Europe during the latter half of the nineteenth century. In that sense, its self-image is akin to any number of rival national liberation movements of that time, manifesting in the context of the dissolution of the Russian, Austro-Hungarian, and Ottoman Empires.

However, that is only half the story, as the era of the rise of European nationalism was also the era of the assumption of global European supremacy and imperialism. This wouldn’t have mattered in the case of Zionism any more than it mattered in the case of, say, Serbian nationalism, if it wasn’t for one major unique characteristic of Zionism - that it was the national movement of a dispersed people with its geographical focus on a land where almost none of them lived, that was also inhabited by another people about to experience their own burgeoning nationalism.

So while beyond perhaps the extreme fringes Zionism never developed a grand ideology of explicit anti-Arab racial inferiority along the lines of, say, the racial attitudes of white America vis-a-vis African Americans, it brought to Palestine certain assumptions regarding the hierarchy of civilization and the ranking of non-European peoples such as the Arabs within that hierarchy. And so it tended to treat the Arabs with a degree of indifference or contempt, the Arabs being expected to basically prostrate themselves before the more advanced civilization in the ways that so many subjects of empire had in the century or so before around the world. And in the practical circumstances that the early Zionist settlers found themselves in, they adopted the familiar methods of settler-colonialism, and were unapologetic about recognizing it as such at the time. That is the Zionism experienced by the Palestinians on the ground, not as an abstract theory of Jewish liberation but as a manifestation of European imperialism directed at them.

So Zionism is quite unique being in origin both a nationalist liberation movement in the classic European form, and also a settler-colonial movement in the classic imperialist form, whatever other developments may have complicated this picture since (e.g. the migration of Mizrachi Jews since 1948). Due to the well known saga of Jewish history, it can be very hard for Jews to understand Zionism as anything other than the former; but in the face of their day-to-day experiences of Zionism, it’s almost impossible for Palestinians to understand it as anything other than the latter (a major exception who we should all be reading at these times would be Edward Said who, from an acknowledged position of relative privilege, made a huge effort to attempt to understand the genuine appeal of Zionism for Jews).

That's a great post, thank you for sharing it.

 

[NicolaSacco]

It's a forum. It's got mods who police what is posted. I don't think they need you to do it. I posted my opinion of the false equivalency I saw, especially in the last few pages. Thanks anyway.

The bit where you mention false equivalency must have been written in white text, as I checked and it's simply not there. No need to thank me.

 

[Jippy]

People should be allowed to grow up. But it's a stain especially if you are at Harvard because you want to enter the top 0.1%, a group not particularly well known for its radicalism or its sense of humour.

They may be students but they are also adults accountable for their opinions.

They are still adults, but they are effectively being bullied by a billionaire. Ackman, from what I can see, seems to be calling for the blacklisting of anyone affiliated to any Palestine supporting organisation though, not just idiots celebrating the murders at the weekend. I'm sure the members are not all beatniks- some may have Palestinian roots and lost family in the conflict etc...

Billionaires playing moral arbiters is grim.

Here we go, as Fabrizio would say. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Portland_Trust is majority funded by The Pershing A
Square Foundation, which is majority funded by its two trustees, bill ackman and NerI oxman.

Im sure I could find more, which are slightly less obvious. And I’m sure you appreciate he probably doesn’t want to directly put his name on some.

Good for him if he is donating to a pro-peace movement, though there is no evidence in that link and I cannot be arsed to sift through Pershing Square's accounts for it.

 

[YouOnlyLiveTwice]

The attack was brutal enough without the rumours of beheaded babies. What is also brutal is the hourly bombing of apartment buildings in Gaza, another family killed. This has to stop, but i fear it's not even started.

 

[Andy_Cole]

Michael Imporioli (Christopher from Sopranos) was posting a load of videos pro Palestine, basically showing the brutality of Israel. I woke up in the morning and they were all deleted off his Instagram and he’s posted ‘I stand with Israel’. Something weird has gone on. Similar time as Dwayne Johnson has posted something. I think propaganda has got to Hollywood.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Bill Ackman is quite a cool dude. Eccentric as hell, smart as a button. Just likes to speak his mind and get involved. it’s not just this, he does loads of random cool stuff. Pretty sure he’s donated to Palestinians in the past

he’s obviously very pro Israel though.

Not smart at all, unfortunately. Showed his ass many times, especially with the people he has backed who were known fraudsters and excuses their behavior.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Pity the plight of the Harvard graduate! Well not sure about that. One of the reasons rich people send their kids to Harvard is to get them access to these power networks. People there can hardly complain if those networks decide not to play.

Sorry but looking at people with 100,000s of followers, who run hedgefunds and are literal billionaires, versus some student groups at a university. Not quite the same.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Michael Imporioli (Christopher from Sopranos) was posting a load of videos pro Palestine, basically showing the brutality of Israel. I woke up in the morning and they were all deleted off his Instagram and he’s posted ‘I stand with Israel’. Something weird has gone on. Similar time as Dwayne Johnson has posted something. I think propaganda has got to Hollywood.

Unfortunately, pulling at this type thread makes someone sound like Kanye quite quickly.

 

[owlo]

Not smart at all, unfortunately. Showed his ass many times, especially with the people he has backed who were known fraudsters and excuses their behavior.

Risk and reward. Play the game and you'll get your ass mashed sometimes. Whats this fraud thing? Not heard about it. I only really know of him through his trading and charity.

 

[Skills]

It's perfectly normal to have this reaction after wehat happened.

Do you consider a two states solution as realistic? Any chance of it happening?

What 2 states though?

 

[owlo]

They are still adults, but they are effectively being bullied by a billionaire. Ackman, from what I can see, seems to be calling for the blacklisting of anyone affiliated to any Palestine supporting organisation though, not just idiots celebrating the murders at the weekend. I'm sure the members are not all beatniks- some may have Palestinian roots and lost family in the conflict etc...

Billionaires playing moral arbiters is grim.

Good for him if he is donating to a pro-peace movement, though there is no evidence in that link and I cannot be arsed to sift through Pershing Square's accounts for it.

He's just a pissed off guy putting his money retaliating for terror. Like millions of other Israelis and Jews, but on the more powerful end of the scale. I doubt many Palestinian/Arab businessmen will be employing Zionists either.

https://pershingsquarefoundation.org/portfolio-organization/the-portland-trust-2/

Along with HRW, Innocence Project, Immigrant Justice Corps, Planned Parenthood, Seeds of Peace, and a feckloadm ore.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Michael Imporioli (Christopher from Sopranos) was posting a load of videos pro Palestine, basically showing the brutality of Israel. I woke up in the morning and they were all deleted off his Instagram and he’s posted ‘I stand with Israel’. Something weird has gone on. Similar time as Dwayne Johnson has posted something. I think propaganda has got to Hollywood.

Supporting Palestine and Hollywood don't go well together. Plenty of celebrities have had to backtrack on any support they show for Palestine, or criticism of Israel.

I'll respond to some of the other posts replying to mine about Ackmans tweet a bit later

 

[e.cantona]

Gotta say, this thread is a pretty wild ride, and perhaps a tiny representation of the power of the internet. People from all over the world, on a football forum, with the full range of views both ideologically, and to be honest intellectually salient.

It's genuinely fascinating. As someone (I'd imagine) a touch older than the most tribal of posters on here, I'd suggest reading and not posting for a bit. There's almost a game of 'my side did mass murder in a more understandable way than your side' going on which is pretty ugly.

Also, final tip: don't look on Twitter for someone confirming what you want to hear. You'll find it. Instead, search news from actual journalists for what you don't want to be true.

This post should be stickied at the top of every page

 

[Drainy]

Michael Imporioli (Christopher from Sopranos) was posting a load of videos pro Palestine, basically showing the brutality of Israel. I woke up in the morning and they were all deleted off his Instagram and he’s posted ‘I stand with Israel’. Something weird has gone on. Similar time as Dwayne Johnson has posted something. I think propaganda has got to Hollywood.

I doubt it's that deep, he probably has sympathy for the plight of Palestinians, then realised it could have come across as justifying the atrocities of the last week and thought better of it.

I doubt he 'got the call' or whatever other antisemitic trope is being implied.

 

[Andy_Cole]

I doubt it's that deep, he probably has sympathy for the plight of Palestinians, then realised it could have come across as justifying the atrocities of the last week and thought better of it.

I doubt he 'got the call' or whatever other antisemitic trope is being implied.

It’s not antisemitism. Not everything is antisemitism. It’s western propaganda pulling the narrative in their favour. Like how BBC state Israelis are murdered but Palestinian people have died.

I’ve reported you.

 

[Amir]

Do you consider a two states solution as realistic? Any chance of it happening?

It's the only solution., but it won't happen in our lifetime.

It will require very special, strong and brave leaders on both sides. That's not on the horizon.

 

[RedC]

Well firstly, you may struggle to find Israeli groups in western universities that organise meetings to celebrate slaughter.

I'm pretty sure I just saw a video of some of the Jewish community in New York chanting for extermination of all Palestinians on the streets. Doesn't seem to be much moral high ground floating around either side.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Risk and reward. Play the game and you'll get your ass mashed sometimes. Whats this fraud thing? Not heard about it. I only really know of him through his trading and charity.

 

[The Corinthian]

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

Michael Imporioli (Christopher from Sopranos) was posting a load of videos pro Palestine, basically showing the brutality of Israel. I woke up in the morning and they were all deleted off his Instagram and he’s posted ‘I stand with Israel’. Something weird has gone on. Similar time as Dwayne Johnson has posted something. I think propaganda has got to Hollywood.

I'm really annoyed by this.

It's comparable to myself having complete power over the mods here, and making them delete all the tweets that @The Corinthian is posting,
and also forcing him to write that he stands with Israel....

not cool, as they say.

 

[The Boy]

It’s not antisemitism. Not everything is antisemitism. It’s western propaganda pulling the narrative in their favour. Like how BBC state Israelis are murdered but Palestinian people have died.

I’ve reported you.

You've said this quite a bit, but I have been checking the BBC regularly and have seen Palestinian dath tolls described as died and killed as well as Israeli death tolls described died and been killed. There isn't a fixed description for either side.

 

[DavelinaJolie]

I assumed those horrific claims about the babies had been confirmed as I heard a spokesperson from the office of Netenyahu on LBC this morning repeat it.

I think the person in the previous page that advised a cooling down period might be wise for some. There's a lot of circular arguments going on that get spun off into other circular arguments.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You've said this quite a bit, but I have been checking the BBC regularly and have seen Palestinian dath tolls described as died and killed as well as Israeli death tolls described died and been killed. There isn't a fixed description for either side.

The died vs killed thing was discussed earlier. If was used on a few bbc platforms but not across all of them. Never used on bbc.com and they certainly never used murdered vs died. Definitely seems to have been blown up out of all proportion.

 

[owlo]

Is that a one off tweet from an eccentric buffoon or did he have a history of backing him and trade with him? Sounds like an offhand remark, but if he has a history of trade and letting people get defrauded by the guy I'll change my view on that.