Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

adexkola said:
I'm not sure how you extracted that from her post, which is measured and accurate
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She didn't mention Hamas, to be fair. Let's be fair here, Hamas are a nihilistic organisation that needs to be eradicated from Earth.
 
adexkola said:
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Her parents are Palestinians, I cant see much wrong with what she has said. Let's all be honest, Palestinians are living under occupation and one of the worst human condition. It is near impossible for Israel to have peace without addressing the Palestininan problem. Again, I condemn the actions of Hamas and my above post is not a justification for the heinous acts by Hamas, but the facts are still facts.
 
adexkola said:
I'm not sure how you extracted that from her post, which is measured and accurate
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She added 'and Israeli' as the only indicator of the terror that had just rocked a country to the core. Then she called on Israel [that country] to do a bunch of stuff, and blamed Israel for actions that led to "resistance." She continued to talk about apartheid and how evil Israel were and how the US needed to stop funding them, without mentioning anything else about the terrorists in communities and homes, which from the time of her post took a further 36 hours to clear out. She didn't call for return of hostages, for terrorists to leave homes of innocents, or for any cessation by Hamas.

She used her platform to say "This is what happens, this is what you deserve. I want to make you more vulnerable."

She posted this AS 1000 terrorists were murdering Israeli civilians and burning their homes.
 
owlo said:
It's not inaccurate, nor uncommon in sheltered communities. Whether you like to think so or not. And its their right to hold that way of life should they want to do so.
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You originally compared most Jews in London to lemmings because according to you they believe God will solve their problems. You know that's bollocks right? You speak like a 19th century Orientalist.
 
owlo said:
Gotta remember just how shielded many of these jews and their kids are; they have no idea how to deal with conflict or bullies. At the risk of using anti semitic tropes, think kyle. They dont know how to identify or react to danger because all they know is their community, which they tend to live insularly in. Holidays are to Israel, Jew studies are often 5 hours a day, and they have an overriding idea that 'what will be will be' and 'god will protect us if we deserve it' so walk around like lemmings.
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I know a lot of Jewish folk in the US and UK, some Israeli, some not, very few are as you describe above. Some are pricks, some are mates - just like everyone, you can say the same for any Palestinians. You would do well to not generalize and, judging by your post, get a bit more life experience.
 
P-Ro said:
You originally compared most Jews in London to lemmings because according to you they believe God will solve their problems. You know that's bollocks right? You speak like a 19th century Orientalist.
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tomaldinho1 said:
I know a lot of Jewish folk in the US and UK, some Israeli, some not, very few are as you describe above. Some are pricks, some are mates - just like everyone, you can say the same for any Palestinians. You would do well to not generalize and, judging by your post, get a bit more life experience.
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Many, not most. As in the religious communities. Granted, it was rather clumsy wording in hindsight and not a good post.
 
E-mal said:
Her parents are Palestinians, I cant see much wrong with what she has said. Let's all be honest, Palestinians are living under occupation and one of the worst human condition. It is near impossible for Israel to have peace without addressing the Palestininan problem. Again, I condemn the actions of Hamas and my above post is not a justification for the heinous acts by Hamas, but the facts are still facts.
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The closest she comes to speaking about Hamas is the word resistance.
 
11101 said:
Amongst all that and all the handwringing and the kids trying to justify any of it, I'd love to know what Hamas think this will get them. It's almost certain Gaza will be flattened and Hamas in Gaza will cease to exist. Or is it just the leadership safe in Qatar are happy to sacrifice a few hundred thousand people to get in Iran's good books.
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This. Same question I raised. There is no strategy here that is good for the people of Gaza. It's violence for violence's sake.
 
owlo said:
Many, not most. As in the religious communities. Granted, it was rather clumsy wording in hindsight and not a good post.
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Fair response, it is rare for people to not simply double down on the caf so appreciated
 
zaafi said:
The solution for Palestine? The solution is literally to surrender or be nuked to oblivion. I don't think they can even surrender at this point.

Hamas are not looking for a solution. They want to destroy every single Jew on this planet. They aren't looking to just liberate Palestine.
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I am not talking about Hamas and they do not represent Palestines across the world. Israel and US have designated them a terrorist organisation, then why should we use the actions of a few to justify the annihilation of 2.3million people. It cannot be just right, you must agree with me, no ? If all humans are equal, we surely must see the legitimacy of adressing the Palestinian problem. Regardless of the heinous acts of the barbaric Hamas.
 
Raoul said:
Things however seem to have gone wrong for Hamas leadership in that they did not factor in the likelihood that the attack would galvanize Israel to actually invade Gaza to disarm and entirely remove Hamas, and subsequently reoccupy Gaza to prevent any further militant activity from ever being able to harm them.
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That's one hell of a miscalculation, but your first point is key, the only real beneficiary from all of this is the Iranian leadership.
 
owlo said:
She added 'and Israeli' as the only indicator of the terror that had just rocked a country to the core. Then she called on Israel [that country] to do a bunch of stuff, and blamed Israel for actions that led to "resistance." She continued to talk about apartheid and how evil Israel were and how the US needed to stop funding them, without mentioning anything else about the terrorists in communities and homes, which from the time of her post took a further 36 hours to clear out. She didn't call for return of hostages, for terrorists to leave homes of innocents, or for any cessation by Hamas.

She used her platform to say "This is what happens, this is what you deserve. I want to make you more vulnerable."

She posted this AS 1000 terrorists were murdering Israeli civilians and burning their homes.
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I think there are plenty of calls for halts to the immediate violence and condemnation of Hamas actions which are reprehensible and indefensible. As a Palestinian-American she's more qualified than most to provide a more objective and systemic point of view which does not pretend the reprehensible and indefensible acts in the region started yesterday.

Do you disagree with her calls on Israel to stop doing "that bunch of stuff"?
 
Shez said:
Bodies were found? What does that even mean
And im guessing regardless of age gender - if it was Palestinian it was hamas is the equivocation?
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It means 1,500 bodies of Hamas terrorists were found in Israeli territory, after being killed by Israeli forces.

It's also a hint of just how many terrorists crossed the border to Israel. It's not all of them, of course, as others returned to Gaza. But overall, it shows that there were thousands of terrorists. No wonder the death toll is so terrible.
 
Raoul said:
There are several angles to this.

- In recent weeks, Iran's three biggest enemies (US, Saudi, and Israel) have been working on a long term peace deal between the Saudis and Israelis. Given the reports that last weekend's terror operation was allegedly planned for two years, its timing seems more coincidental than anything, but the long term ramifications obviously work out in favor of the Iranians (who fund and train Hamas).

- The Hamas leadership are probably somewhat surprised at how well things went and that they were able to easily overwhelm, murder, and kidnap at will in the initial hours. That said, I think the Hamas goal would've been to take as many hostages as possible and use them as bargaining chips to negotiate the release of Palestinian hostages, gain political concessions from the Israelis, reorient global attention back to the middle east (and away from Ukraine), and as a bonus, kill any Israeli momentum towards bilateral peace deals with other Arab countries.

- Things however seem to have gone wrong for Hamas leadership in that they did not factor in the likelihood that the attack would galvanize Israel to actually invade Gaza to disarm and entirely remove Hamas, and subsequently reoccupy Gaza to prevent any further militant activity from ever being able to harm them.

This is why it feels like a ground war followed by a lengthy counterinsurgency campaign is inevitable, which given the amount of people in such a small area, would likely go on for weeks and months. Heavy civilian casualties will ensue.
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As much as I like your analysis and think that you're right for the most part, I'm having a hard time to believe that the Hamas wouldn't know that an attack of this scale would trigger an absolute hell on earth for Gaza and that includes a ground invasion, followed by a reoccupation of the enclave.

In my opinion, they're absolutely betting on it. They want things to escalate even if it means even more suffering for the population, not that it ever was a major concern for them. I also don't doubt for one second that they didn't somehow prepare for what's coming in the next days/weeks. I do think that they're determined to lure the IDF in and make them "bleed" as much as they can, in a nasty urban warfare, where close combat and a better knowledge of the terrain significantly reduce the IDF's technological superiority while tremendously augmenting the collateral damages inflicted to the population.

Maybe I'm wrong but you seem to think that Hamas just wanted to achieve some kind of a military victory over Israel to boast about while securing hostages to trade. That is not the case this time. They're going to lose this war in military terms and and they know it. They want to push the madness of this conflict to a degree such that the world can't turn a blind eye anymore, and shift the current international politics in the region. This also helps Iran's case (who most certainly gave the green light for the operation) by virtually eliminating or at least postponing for a very long time the danger of arab countries (read SA) making treaties with Israel.
 
If the USA get involved with bombing or a ground invasion, then WW3 is here.
 
No matter what Hamas does, children burned, babies decapitated, sheer hatred, joy and dancing at murder of helpless innocents etc etc. It will not matter to many people here. Nor Hamas's stated reasons as being firstly for religious reasons, as revenge for some theoretical insult to their third holiest site (from which they prostrate themselves in the opposite direction).

Many in here will continue to lap up what Hamas posts online, which is either misleading or outright lies, because that's what they want to believe. Islam is one of the world's most popular religions and Muslims generally support one another. (In most other contexts that is admirable but not here unfortunately.)
 
This thread is only allowing people to amplify the hatred. Back and forth, insult upon insult. No good can come of this thread. Perhaps time to close it.
 
Amir said:
It means 1,500 bodies of Hamas terrorists were found in Israeli territory, after being killed by Israeli forces.

It's also a hint of just how many terrorists crossed the border to Israel. It's not all of them, of course, as others returned to Gaza. But overall, it shows that there were thousands of terrorists. No wonder the death toll is so terrible.
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That’s quite a large number to get by without detection
 
Levi1 said:
No matter what Hamas does, children burned, babies decapitated, sheer hatred, joy and dancing at murder of helpless innocents etc etc. It will not matter to many people here. Nor Hamas's stated reasons as being firstly for religious reasons, as revenge for some theoretical insult to their third holiest site (from which they prostrate themselves in the opposite direction).

Many in here will continue to lap up what Hamas posts online, which is either misleading or outright lies, because that's what they want to believe. Islam is one of the world's most popular religions and Muslims generally support one another. (In most other contexts that is admirable but not here unfortunately.)
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It goes both ways. I've seen plenty of videos of Palestinians pulling their dead, decapitated children from rubble.
 
adexkola said:
I think there are plenty of calls for halts to the immediate violence and condemnation of Hamas actions which are reprehensible and indefensible. As a Palestinian-American she's more qualified than most to provide a more objective and systemic point of view which does not pretend the reprehensible and indefensible acts in the region started yesterday.

Do you disagree with her calls on Israel to stop doing "that bunch of stuff"?
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I disagree that she’s providing an objective point of view. I disagree that anybody in the Israeli or US government would seriously consider her objective. So she’s not calling on Israel to do anything. She’s fermenting hate through her following and support by pushing a narrative that justifies the terrorism happening as she posts.

She is a member of the legislature of the United States government. Her job is to represent her district of the United States, and the interests of the United States. The president decides foreign policy, not a house rep in a fringe conference.

Worth noting there’s been bipartisan criticism of her comments.
 
Levi1 said:
This thread is only allowing people to amplify the hatred. Back and forth, insult upon insult. No good can come of this thread. Perhaps time to close it.
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I'm not sure you appreciate the irony of this post at all.
 
That_Bloke said:
As much as I like your analysis and think that you're right for the most part, I'm having a hard time to believe that the Hamas wouldn't know that an attack of this scale would trigger an absolute hell on earth for Gaza and that includes a ground invasion, followed by a reoccupation of the enclave.

In my opinion, they're absolutely betting on it. They want things to escalate even if it means even more suffering for the population, not that it ever was a major concern for them. I also don't doubt for one second that they didn't somehow prepare for what's coming in the next days/weeks. I do think that they're determined to lure the IDF in and make them "bleed" as much as they can, in a nasty urban warfare, where close combat and a better knowledge of the terrain significantly reduce the IDF's technological superiority while tremendously augmenting the collateral damages inflicted to the population.

Maybe I'm wrong but you seem to think that Hamas just wanted to achieve some kind of a military victory over Israel to boast about while securing hostages to trade. That is not the case this time. They're going to lose this war in military terms and and they know it. They want to push the madness of this conflict to a degree such that the world can't turn a blind eye anymore, and shift the current international politics in the region. This also helps Iran's case (who most certainly gave the green light for the operation) by virtually eliminating or at least postponing for a very long time the danger of arab countries (read SA) making treaties with Israel.
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I generally agree with this post. Large scale urban combat in Gaza is a wet dream for them.
 
Shez said:
That’s quite a large number to get by without detection
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Their first destinations were IDF bases, where they attacked the soldiers whose work focuses on detecting such stuff. Once those soldiers were out of the way, it all became easier I guess.
 
Tibs said:
If the USA get involved with bombing or a ground invasion, then WW3 is here.
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I doubt the US will get involved so directly but who would be on the other side to make it WW3? China could not care less while Russia has other problems to put it mildly, even if it thought there were some big strategic benefit in openly resisting the US and Israel. There is a fundamental asymmetry in this conflict.
 
Tibs said:
If the USA get involved with bombing or a ground invasion, then WW3 is here.
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MoskvaRed said:
I doubt the US will get involved so directly but who would be on the other side to make it WW3? China could not care less while Russia has other problems to put it mildly, even if it thought there were some big strategic benefit in openly resisting the US and Israel. There is a fundamental asymmetry in this conflict.
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And Europe won’t get involved either.
 
owlo said:
She’s fermenting hate through her following and support by pushing a narrative that justifies the terrorism happening as she posts.
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I thought you didn't have much of an issue with that:

owlo said:
Navalny calls immigrants cockroaches, Braverman says whatever, trump called them rapists and murderers and black people imbeciles. Rhetoric like that is horrible but happens everywhere to play to political audiences. That's not the sort of escalation which results in this.
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Tibs said:
If the USA get involved with bombing or a ground invasion, then WW3 is here.
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The USA will not get directly involved in such a scenario, they will supply weapons and equipment to the Israeli's but that's it, the only way the US military gets involved directly is thru a UN/NATO peacekeeping force
 
DatIrishFella said:
It goes both ways. I've seen plenty of videos of Palestinians pulling their dead, decapitated children from rubble.
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Sounds like you are equating the two. I suppose your post is good evidence for what I said, that no matter what, some people will never change their perspectives about this.
 
Levi1 said:
Sounds like you are equating the two. I suppose your post is good evidence for what I said, that no matter what, some people will never change their perspectives about this.
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He's not equating the two, he just pointed out that the bad shit is happening to both sides, neither side is innocent in all of this
 
Levi1 said:
This thread is only allowing people to amplify the hatred. Back and forth, insult upon insult. No good can come of this thread. Perhaps time to close it.
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Agree due to more surreal, mind bending stories coming from the southern kibbutzes.
 
That_Bloke said:
In my opinion, they're absolutely betting on it. They want things to escalate even if it means even more suffering for the population, not that it ever was a major concern for them. I also don't doubt for one second that they didn't somehow prepare for what's coming in the next days/weeks. I do think that they're determined to lure the IDF in and make them "bleed" as much as they can, in a nasty urban warfare, where close combat and a better knowledge of the terrain significantly reduce the IDF's technological superiority while tremendously augmenting the collateral damages inflicted to the population.
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I agree. No way will Hamas not be ultra-prepared for this. I think this is going to be tough for the IDF. They will get ambushed, they will lose tanks, helicopters and many hundreds of troops. Those losses will be beamed around the world and portrayed as glorious Hamas victories.

I'm guessing the difference from last time though is that the IDF will do what it takes to clear any area if there are such ambushes. Expect city blocks to disappear if a tank gets flamed. It's going to be awful.
 
Levi1 said:
No matter what Hamas does, children burned, babies decapitated, sheer hatred, joy and dancing at murder of helpless innocents etc etc. It will not matter to many people here. Nor Hamas's stated reasons as being firstly for religious reasons, as revenge for some theoretical insult to their third holiest site (from which they prostrate themselves in the opposite direction).

Many in here will continue to lap up what Hamas posts online, which is either misleading or outright lies, because that's what they want to believe. Islam is one of the world's most popular religions and Muslims generally support one another. (In most other contexts that is admirable but not here unfortunately.)
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I don't think you'll find anyone on here that actually condones the attack on Israel by Hamas and I've read pretty much all of this thread.

There are plenty of people that believe Israel's actions towards the Palestinians have led to this and plenty believe that Hamas have bought this upon themselves. But no one is calling for the end of Israel and no one is lapping up Hamas propaganda.

I think if you bothered to read the thread you'd find the vast majority of posters are generally shocked and depressed by the sheer horror of the situation regardless of their religion, country, background etc

To put it frankly your post is pretty much bollocks.
 
Levi1 said:
This thread is only allowing people to amplify the hatred. Back and forth, insult upon insult. No good can come of this thread. Perhaps time to close it.
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Or perhaps it's time for you to leave it. Because there's nothing in this thread that suggests that what you're claiming is even remotely true.
 
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