Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Drizzle]

No other nation has been charged by all other nations to the extent Israel has for provoking exactly this kind of sick madness that now unfolds and doing nothing about it. Check the record (official UN).

Oh come on, like Israel is uniquely evil. Have you heard of China, Russia, North Korea, USA, Morocco, Syria etc etc? All recently guilty of mass murder, colonialism, ethnic cleansing, war crimes etc, often on a greater scale than anything Israel has ever done. So spare me the UN crap. There is nothing unique about Israel.

I'm trying to have a serious conversation. How does Israel respond militarily to this (and any rational person would understand it must) without inflicting terrible harm on civilian populations.

 

[neverdie]

They've exhibited extreme caution when facing an enemy who's shown no caution.

This is just laughable insofar as you demonstrate no knowledge of minimum 20 years of this conflict (rather than go back longer). The IDF has routinely, not just the IDF, massacred civiliians and we call it collateral damage. It's complete fecking gibberish.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

And how exactly does murdering 1000 civilians increases their chances against Israel's oppression. Do they think, that Israel backs down in their ways after watching their kids being raped and murdered? I would really like to understand that logic. Where exactly do they see a chance now to end the status quo.

You're asking the wrong guy. They're hopeless and desperate.

 

[neverdie]

Oh come on, like Israel is uniquely evil. Have you heard of China, Russia, North Korea, USA, Morocco, Syria etc etc? All recently guilty of mass murder, colonialism, ethnic cleansing, war crimes etc, often on a greater scale than anything Israel has ever done. So spare me the UN crap. There is nothing unique about Israel.

Yes, that's the point I'm making. I've heard of all of them and none has been charged as much as Israel since the end of the second world war by all other nations. Might tell you something about western-sponsored ethnic cleansing called "war on terror" or "right to protect itself" by people who have no understanding of basic sociopolitical history.

Moreover, none has been sanctioned less or held to responsibility less. It is a unique situation and it is understood as such. All the above, minus the US, have been sanctioned to death. Name one binding sanction faced by Israel since the second world war? There isn't one. I'll save you the time (2016 was ripped up immediately by both Israel and the US).

 

[Denis79]

I hate what's now happening to Gaza. It's disgusting.

But realistically, what would be a proportionate response by a country to 1000 of its civilians being slaughtered, raped and abducted? Especially when the majority of those responsible are hiding in schools, hospitals etc? Genuine question. There obviously has to be a proportionate military response, but what could it be to minimise innocent human suffering?

This shit is never going to end. Both sides have murdered and raped and honestly I don't see any side better than the other. It is heartbreaking that the innocent have to pay the price for the transgression of the few. It is a spiral of shit and the innocent are paying the price.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The classic "fight back of the oppressed against the oppressors" rhetoric seemingly doesn't apply. They obviously don't look Jewish

Babies, children, etc. don't look like Hamas members either, and yet here we are.

Most sane people do not "justify" these things in the sense of considering them morally right. They just have different views of what is inevitable or unavoidable depending on who did it.

 

[Mogget]

The problem though is that Israel does kill innocent civilians. But you’re either choosing to ignore that or are only following the narrative our media show us. So this argument collapses. Israel and Hamas aren’t really any different. They are both awful and do inhumane things. But one has western backing - which is why views like yours exist.

I think you've very badly misunderstood what my view is or quoted the wrong post?

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Do not post gratuitous photos of dead people.

Thank you Mods.

 

[Drizzle]

How should Palestine protect its citizens?





How should the US protect its American journalists?

Shireen Abu Akleh - Wikipedia

Thanks for all that. So I guess you think Israel should do nothing, hold up its hands and admit it's a fair cop, Hamas, here, have Palestine back. Hopefully you'll treat Israelis fairly in this new joint society. In a fairy tale world, this might happen, and may in fact be fair.

Meanwhile in the real world, I'm trying to understand what Israel could do now to destroy Hamas, which it must, without punishing innocent Palestinians.

And then at some point, the US must force it to come to the negotiating table.

 

[Pintu]

@Pintu
So I take it you just completely ignored my post and don’t mind that you were fabricating lies about me. I must say that’s disappointing.

I missed it at first. I only saw it now after looking back at my notifications.

Fair enough, I didn't think I was fabricating lies (I was provocative and insensitive in expressing what I thought you stood for). I stand corrected now. Sorry.

I still find the canceling of Malcolm excessive, even though it seems he had other controversies prior to this one.

I am convinced that the German mainstream media can find better ways to show solidarity with Israel (as a nation, not with Netanyahu) than the way they currently handle it. It seems it conditions all their coverage of this particular subject, in some ways, imposing some (IMO unjustifiable) limits on free/transparent information.

 

[The Corinthian]

Oh come on, like Israel is uniquely evil. Have you heard of China, Russia, North Korea, USA, Morocco, Syria etc etc? All recently guilty of mass murder, colonialism, ethnic cleansing, war crimes etc, often on a greater scale than anything Israel has ever done. So spare me the UN crap. There is nothing unique about Israel.

I'm trying to have a serious conversation. How does Israel respond militarily to this (and any rational person would understand it must) without inflicting terrible harm on civilian populations.

China, Russia, NK are all under sanctions because of it. USA calls the shots, so they're a moot point, and Syria is hell given the civil war has been ongoing for 10+ years.

Israel should be sanctioned.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Reading an interesting interview with one of the organisers of the festival. Speaks about the attack by Hamas but some of his details are bit different to what seems to be the narrative being presented now.

In a nutshell he speaks about the festival and who organised it. Speaks of numbers attending and the age range (20-40). Further goes on to say plenty of police/security and many of the participants IDF.

Tells about the attack and how there was a fight between Hamas and the IDF participants and the police/security. Goes into detail of how his fellow organiser, IDF trained, killed some people with his bare hands etc.

Not sure where you're going with this? If you were to select a few thousand 20-40 year old Israeli's at random you'd expect a fair proportion of them to have been IDF trained, seeing as military service is compulsory. It wouldn't make a military assault on a music festival any less reprehensible. Do you have a link to the article you're reading?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

We also know what Israel would do if they had all power, because that is close to what they have in this conflict. They've exhibited extreme caution when facing an enemy who's shown no caution.

I'm sorry, but this is just not a serious thing to believe.

 

[owlo]

Oh come on, like Israel is uniquely evil. Have you heard of China, Russia, North Korea, USA, Morocco, Syria etc etc? All recently guilty of mass murder, colonialism, ethnic cleansing, war crimes etc, often on a greater scale than anything Israel has ever done. So spare me the UN crap. There is nothing unique about Israel.

I'm trying to have a serious conversation. How does Israel respond militarily to this (and any rational person would understand it must) without inflicting terrible harm on civilian populations.

If the government was strong, I’d have said to hold back on air strikes and invasions for a week of national mourning, whilst letting the international pressure mount to return the hostages and using diplomatic channels to convey the shitstorm that would occur if they weren’t returned.

After that week, I’m not sure. Depends on reaction. But it looks like their ISR is incredibly weak in Gaza, so targeted killings woul£ be difficult. I’d probably siege it without the invasion and let them suffer the wrath of their population.

in reality it’s very difficult to do because of my post above. The air is febrile.

 

[Drizzle]

This shit is never going to end. Both sides have murdered and raped and honestly I don't see any side better than the other. It is heartbreaking that the innocent have to pay the price for the transgression of the few. It is a spiral of shit and the innocent are paying the price.

It can only end by the superpowers committing to it and forcing it to happen. But the world is too unstable and multipolar for that to happen right now.

 

[neverdie]

Meanwhile in the real world, I'm trying to understand what Israel could do now to destroy Hamas, which it must, without punishing innocent Palestinians.

And then at some point, the US must force it to come to the negotiating table.

Let me know when you find the real world.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I hate what's now happening to Gaza. It's disgusting.

But realistically, what would be a proportionate response by a country to 1000 of its civilians being slaughtered, raped and abducted? Especially when the majority of those responsible are hiding in schools, hospitals etc? Genuine question. There obviously has to be a proportionate military response, but what could it be to minimise innocent human suffering?

I don't really think there is one. It's basically a near 100 year old war with both sides desensitized and fueled by propaganda, either a world power intervenes and forces some kind of peace or this goes round in circles.

 

[owlo]

Not sure where you're going with this? If you were to select a few thousand 20-40 year old Israeli's at random you'd expect a fair proportion of them to have been IDF trained, seeing as military service is compulsory. Do you have a link to the article you're reading?

Aye. Gun control needs looked at.

 

[Drizzle]

If the government was strong, I’d have said to hold back on air strikes and invasions for a week of national mourning, whilst letting the international pressure mount to return the hostages and using diplomatic channels to convey the shitstorm that would occur if they weren’t returned.

After that week, I’m not sure. Depends on reaction. But it looks like their ISR is incredibly weak in Gaza, so targeted killings woul£ be difficult. I’d probably siege it without the invasion and let them suffer the wrath of their population.

in reality it’s very difficult to do because of my post above. The air is febrile.

Yes I think that's fair. It's hard to deal with the seething wrath of a population who have seen their kin slaughtered for fun on videos though. Like you say, only a strong government could do the right thing. Sadly, Bibi's disgrace of a government are going to lash out savagely to signal power entirely because they're weak

 

[Drizzle]

Let me know when you find the real world.

Fair point. But I'm talking years into the future here

 

[The Corinthian]

Thanks for all that. So I guess you think Israel should do nothing, hold up its hands and admit it's a fair cop, Hamas, here, have Palestine back. Hopefully you'll treat Israelis fairly in this new joint society. In a fairy tale world, this might happen, and may in fact be fair.

Meanwhile in the real world, I'm trying to understand what Israel could do now to destroy Hamas, which it must, without punishing innocent Palestinians.

And then at some point, the US must force it to come to the negotiating table.

I've said it to I'm blue in the face -

You can't subjugate, beat and oppress a peoples and expect no reaction. That's the fairy tale here - that you can behave that way and expect them to take it lying down. These people have nothing - no hope, no freedom, and no security. They would rather die on their feet fighting then be subjugated.

It's easy for you and me to sit on a laptop and ruminate on what Israel should do, and Hamas is barbaric and I can't believe it yadda yadda yadda from the safety of our homes.

'Without punishing innocent Palestinians' is the fairytale her. Israel has no problem killing them before this weekend, why would they start caring now? Palestinian blood is cheap to them. Look up the stats on how many chuldren have been killed by them.

There needs to be international intervention, and the UN needs to hold Israel to account for breaking the numerous international laws and Geneva convention protocols.

 

[Drizzle]

I've said it to I'm blue in the face -

You can't subjugate, beat and oppress a peoples and expect no reaction. That's the fairy tale here - that you can behave that way and expect them to take it lying down. These people have nothing - no hope, no freedom, and no security. They would rather die on their feet fighting then be subjugated.

It's easy for you and me to sit on a laptop and ruminate on what Israel should do, and Hamas is barbaric and I can't believe it yadda yadda yadda from the safety of our homes.

There needs to be international intervention, and the UN needs to hold Israel to account for breaking the numerous international laws and Geneva convention protocols.

I agree. Israel needs iron guarantees over the security and safety of its people as we can see what might happen otherwise, but Palestine needs to be a sovereign state with similar guarantees.

 

[owlo]

Yes I think that's fair. It's hard to deal with the seething wrath of a population who have seen their kin slaughtered for fun on videos though. Like you say, only a strong government could do the right thing. Sadly, Bibi's disgrace of a government are going to lash out savagely to signal power entirely because they're weak

Aye. There’s also a lot of experienced Israelis (notably those who’ve served in other services) who are specifically not going back, because they don’t want any part of this. Despite being angry as feck, and getting the same email as all the others. Majority of flights back are people who just did national service, feels like Russian type recruitment,

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Thanks for all that. So I guess you think Israel should do nothing, hold up its hands and admit it's a fair cop, Hamas, here, have Palestine back. Hopefully you'll treat Israelis fairly in this new joint society. In a fairy tale world, this might happen, and may in fact be fair.

The fairy tale is what a certain segment of the Israeli and American population has been selling for the last 10-15 years. The real world is what happened a few days ago.

 

[owlo]

The fairy tale is what a certain segment of the Israeli and American population has been selling for the last 10-15 years. The real world is what happened a few days ago.

Can you explain this? Don’t quite understand.

 

[Cassidy]

Yes I do. But that's not the question I'm asking. Regardless of its crimes, Israel is still a country and it must protect its citizens. Letting Hamas get away with this is clearly not an option, nor would it be for any other country on earth.

I'm asking, how to do it while minimising civilian suffering.

Probably stop with the mass wiping of WB/Palestine from the face of the earth?
This is the issue in my opinion, you can't say Israel must protect its citizens and then ignore the fact the reason for the attacks is because they are oppressing the citizens of another
Thats also not me condoning the attacks, I'm just pointing out that your reasoning here is circular and only leads to more conflict (and more innocent citizens of each country, yes Palestine is a country)

 

[Ragnar123]

I agree. Israel needs iron guarantees over the security and safety of its people as we can see what might happen otherwise, but Palestine needs to be a sovereign state with similar guarantees.

Those guarantees are not worth the paper they're written on. Ukraine war just proves it, after they received all kinds of guarantees for giving up their nuclear weapons. Israel knows this.

 

[neverdie]

Those guarantees are not worth the paper they're written on. Ukraine war just proves it, after they received all kinds of guarantees for giving up their nuclear weapons. Israel knows this.

There is no Russia beside Israel. It is Russia in this instance (insofar as Palestinians and even certain Arab states go).

The level of racism is something to be marvelled at. EU lit up various landmarks with Israeli flag. Never, in the entire conflict, have official houses of parliament had Palestinian flags beamed across their fronts. There is no distinction except one is European colonial settler regime and the other isn't. In decades to come, people will look back on this in absolute shame (the ones now in various quarters of the "west" who go along with this stuff) in much the same way as we view "freedom fries" (only likely much worse owing to the extent of this conflict).

As any past power invades and cleanses a state, "do you respect the right of 'Rome' [insert any colonizer] to exist"? "They're cleansing Carthage..." yes, but do you respect their right to exist.

 

[Roane]

Not sure where you're going with this? If you were to select a few thousand 20-40 year old Israeli's at random you'd expect a fair proportion of them to have been IDF trained, seeing as military service is compulsory. It wouldn't make a military assault on a music festival any less reprehensible. Do you have a link to the article you're reading?

I read that on Billboard. And possibly a few other places too. It's basically hard not to read no matter where you look. I didn't go on billboard to read about Israel

Also interesting that the venue was changed at short notice with the initial venue falling through. Interesting in that the attack wasn't maybe as planned as made out, maybe?

 

[Drizzle]

Probably stop with the mass wiping of WB/Palestine from the face of the earth?
This is the issue in my opinion, you can't say Israel must protect its citizens and then ignore the fact the reason for the attacks is because they are oppressing the citizens of another
Thats also not me condoning the attacks, I'm just pointing out that your reasoning here is circular and only leads to more conflict (and more innocent citizens of each country, yes Palestine is a country)

My reasoning is circular, as is yours of course. And so we spiral into hell.

 

[sullydnl]

 

[VorZakone]

Those guarantees are not worth the paper they're written on. Ukraine war just proves it, after they received all kinds of guarantees for giving up their nuclear weapons. Israel knows this.

I don't think Ukraine received concrete security guarantees. As far as I'm aware, there is no legally binding mechanism that Western countries must intervene in Ukraine.

So I don't think it's the same. Israel won't have to give up their nukes anyway.

 

[Maagge]

On the Danish subreddit I keep seeing the argument being made that Palestine was never a real country so should have no qualms about giving up territory in a proposed two state solution as it was never their territory in the first place. But like, people live there so why would they just up and move? It sounds incredibly imperialistic to me.

 

[Andy_Cole]

The world should give Israel the Russia treatment. Ban them from all sports. Stop trade. Everything.

 

[neverdie]

Palestine was never a real country

Which is the irony I find because that's what Putin has said of Ukraine yet it is Israel which receives the Ukrainian levels of support in the West. It's just utter hypocrisy.

 

[VorZakone]

Yeah this is rational. But Hamas needs to be damaged seriously otherwise they'll do it again, and worse. So it will require military action in Gaza. No other country would be expected to just passively respond to this, regardless of its past actions and complicity.

But Israel's past actions and complicity have contributed to this insane dangerous environment where they found themselves with over 1000 killed + wounded Israeli civilians. Heavy military action into Gaza seems like a case of winning the battle but not winning the war.

You say that Hamas will do it again. That's why I mentioned in those bullet points that Israel should reinforce their border so that it doesn't happen again in such a scale. And get rid of Netanyahu and his goons playing right wing culture & political wars that weakened or distracted Israeli security services. Perhaps the North Korea-South Korea border can be a template or whatever.

Israel has to start somewhere. And that somewhere, in my layman's opinion, is getting your own house & policies in order before committing to any large-scale military operations.

 

[Ragnar123]

On the Danish subreddit I keep seeing the argument being made that Palestine was never a real country so should have no qualms about giving up territory in a proposed two state solution as it was never their territory in the first place. But like, people live there so why would they just up and move? It sounds incredibly imperialistic to me.

The meaning of countries as we know today started shortly before the first ww, I wouldn't use it as an argument for or against. Both people have claim to that land, both people lived there for thousands of years. Hell, the name Palestinian Syria was given by the Romans after they've crushed Judea's rebelion. The problem is both have claim to it, but can't live with each other.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Can you explain this? Don’t quite understand.

The fairy tale is the idea that you can be a normal, healthy, modern country while also subjecting Gaza and the West Bank to daily inhumanities. That the latter enables the former and then you just compartmentalize.

I don't think you can. Not on a moral or civic level, which is partly why we see democratic backsliding, an erosion of liberal values, etc. And based on Hamas' latest attacks, not on a practical level either. Israel couldn't prevent this from happening, on any level.

 

[The Corinthian]

The meaning of countries as we know today started shortly before the first ww, I wouldn't use it as an argument for or against. Both people have claim to that land, both people lived there for thousands of years. Hell, the name Palestinian Syria was given by the Romans after they've crushed Judea's rebelion. The problem is both have claim to it, but can't live with each other.

No they don’t. The Jewish control of the land ended around 1,000 years before 1947.