Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

PoTMS said:
But in truth, what has that sympathy brought the Palestinians? Absolutely feck all.

Sides have been picked and this isn't gonna change anything.

This was always going to happen regardless.
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It has brought them a lot more than what is to follow. Once the hostage situation is resolved, one way or another, Israel will probably turn the electric off and then do whatever they deem neccesary. And it won't be pretty.
 
africanspur said:
This would matter more/ Palestinians would care more if western sympathy actually did anything at all for their cause or their daily lives.

The occupation is ongoing and brutal. Evictions continue in the west bank. Settlements continue there. Shootings by settlers with impunity happen. Water restrictions happen. Military operations killing and injuring dozens happen.

And....what does the west do? Increasingly for that matter, what does the Arab world do?
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https://www.unrwa.org/sites/default/files/top_20_donors_2022_overall_ranking.pdf
 
Wibble said:
I said the Palestinian cause. A massive own goal that will allow Israel free reign to solve the "Palestinian problem".
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I'm not sure any of us know where this lands right now. They won't lose support from the regular people who see Israel as evil occupiers (as you can see from this thread), but may do from nations who are capable of forcing Israeli restraint. There will always be sympathy for how unfair it all is, but the right wing and others will and already are juxtapositioning 9/11 pictures onto the situation. We don't know how much control Russia now has over Hezbollah, or any number of things. It could still snowball, which is what Hamas seem to have gambled on. We've so far seen heavy infantry and cavalry movement, but not Lynx or other heavy artillery. What happens when they begin to flatten Gaza, as they will, is anybodies guess.
 
I don't think Israel will "flatten" Gaza. There is nothing to be gained from it.
 
africanspur said:
This would matter more/ Palestinians would care more if western sympathy actually did anything at all for their cause or their daily lives.

The occupation is ongoing and brutal. Evictions continue in the west bank. Settlements continue there. Shootings by settlers with impunity happen. Water restrictions happen. Military operations killing and injuring dozens happen.

And....what does the west do? Increasingly for that matter, what does the Arab world do?
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I'll know you're a rational poster, so I'll ask you what you expect them to do? Given how the world looks right now, and the conflicts with higher priority (justified or not), what can they do? They can't/won't even touch Iran or the DPRK, and they pretend the Chinese stuff just isn't happening. Africa they are Ostriches.

Sympathy is all we have to give. And violence and terror is all Hamas have to retaliate with. Which ends only one way, in an escalating cycle. I just don't understand how anybody thinks this could have gone differently since the 21st century when a carthage like destruction became impossible in Israel. That was the only way to 'solve' it from the Palestinian side.

VorZakone said:
I don't think Israel will "flatten" Gaza. There is nothing to be gained from it.
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They are already doing so. It obviously won't be a Grozny but they are systematically destroying it as we speak.
 
Wibble said:
It has brought them a lot more than what is to follow. Once the hostage situation is resolved, one way or another, Israel will probably turn the electric off and then do whatever they deem neccesary. And it won't be pretty.
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Netanyahu has tried to avoid support for a ground invasion into Gaza taking hold for years. Now it looks like that might happen. If they do that, they won't want to risk Israeli lives uncessarily (bad politics) and with Hamas' tactics for urban warfare that could turn out extremely costly for the civilians in Gaza.

What happens next is anyone's guess. The situation isn't clear, there are hostages involved and there is a very real possibility of a dramatic escalation.
 
The hatred of fanatics pours across the border. Israeli are now endangered everywhere until the mob cools down again.




Terror attack against Israel tourists in Alexandria, Egypt. An Egyptian police officer has shot & killed at least 3 Israeli tourists. More are wounded
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neverdie said:
Partially agree, but Palestine ain't just Hamas. It's also Fatah, independents, and IJ. Distinction between factions (and geo - WB/Gaza) is crucial to understand any of it.


Support for the Palestinians won't suffer, because it's going, unfortunately, to be a shitshow of a retaliation.
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Really? Feels to me like a couple days ago the Palestinian flag was a symbol of hope and the fight against oppression or whatever and its been turned to a symbol of terrorism overnight. Yesterday's acts were as savage as anything I've seen and I'm not sure it was all just Hamas.

The Palestinian cause took a massive blow yesterday.
 
Drainy said:
No, the process for peace is complex because it would be based on mutual trust and, while Israel have the higher ethical burden to be restrained and make moves towards peace, they also have a right to ensure their own safety so it's a cyclical self sabotaging thing
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Easy for the country that's oppressing the others do say 'we need trust from you before peace'. They know very well themselves there will never be peace as long as they continue to evict, humiliate and murder Palestinians.
 
do.ob said:
https://www.unrwa.org/sites/default/files/top_20_donors_2022_overall_ranking.pdf
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OK and how does this impact their day to day life? How does this help them with their aims of self determination? How does it help them stop the settlements and evictions and extra judicial killings which never get punished?

Are Israel more of a pariah than it was 20 years ago? Do they build less settlements? Are Palestinian lives better? can Gazans leave Gaza? Can they fish safely in their own waters? Can a Gazan go to visit their relatives in Bethlehem? Can a Palestinian enter their own territory without an hours long process at the Allenby bridge?

How does it actually help their day to day lives or stop their feeling it helplessness in their situation?
 
owlo said:
I'll know you're a rational poster, so I'll ask you what you expect them to do? Given how the world looks right now, and the conflicts with higher priority (justified or not), what can they do? They can't/won't even touch Iran or the DPRK, and they pretend the Chinese stuff just isn't happening. Africa they are Ostriches.

Sympathy is all we have to give. And violence and terror is all Hamas have to retaliate with. Which ends only one way, in an escalating cycle. I just don't understand how anybody thinks this could have gone differently since the 21st century when a carthage like destruction became impossible in Israel. That was the only way to 'solve' it from the Palestinian side.



They are already doing so. It obviously won't be a Grozny but they are systematically destroying it as we speak.
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Sorry, before I answer properly, who is them? You mean western citizens?
 
do.ob said:
For example Germany has been paying €340m in aid over the last two years and our finance minister reportedly has asked the foreign minister for an assessment whether that money should continue to flow, because: "the terror is shocking. We shouldn't just react to it with words."
One of his fellow party members wanted all "German, EU and UN financial aid" to be put under review to rule out contributing to anti-Israel or antisemitic causes.
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Giving aid while still legitimizing Israel's occupation is not support.
 
africanspur said:
Sorry, before I answer properly, who is them? You mean western citizens?
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Western governments. Western citizens have almost no power in foreign affairs; it's very rarely a voting priority unless governments make it one by doing something stupid like going to war with Iraq.
 
Wibble said:
Correct.

And Hamas have managed to burn the majority of the sympathy in the west for the Palestinian cause, that has been building over decades, in a single day.
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Sorry Wibs, but "Western sympathy" has done feck all for the Palestinian people all these years.
Illegal settlers still expanding, their lives still miserable and getting worse.
When a high profile Palestinian such as Shireen Abu Akleh (also a US citizen no less) can be murdered by the IDF on camera with no repercussions, what chances the ordinary Palestinians got?
 
In all seriousness, this happened less than 48 hours ago. People should really cool it with these declarations like "Hamas have managed to burn the majoity of the sympathy in the west for the Palestinian cause." They're not based on anything.
 
africanspur said:
OK and how does this impact their day to day life? How does this help them with their aims of self determination? How does it help them stop the settlements and evictions and extra judicial killings which never get punished?

Are Israel more of a pariah than it was 20 years ago? Do they build less settlements? Are Palestinian lives better? can Gazans leave Gaza? Can they fish safely in their own waters? Can a Gazan go to visit their relatives in Bethlehem? Can a Palestinian enter their own territory without an hours long process at the Allenby bridge?

How does it actually help their day to day lives or stop their feeling it helplessness in their situation?
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I think food and medicine are pretty big for day to day life. But maybe that's just me.

I also think there was a slow but steady trend in western media to be more critical with Israel and more sympathetic with Palestine. It's up for discussion what that would have led to in the future, but I guess that's a moot point since yesterday.


hasanejaz88 said:
Giving aid while still legitimizing Israel's occupation is not support.
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Right. I guess they could do without roughly a third of their GDP then.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Easy for the country that's oppressing the others do say 'we need trust from you before peace'. They know very well themselves there will never be peace as long as they continue to evict, humiliate and murder Palestinians.
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And there will never be an easing of controls until there is a good faith effort from the Palestinians towards a peace process, which they won't because of the 'oppression and humiliation', which means Israel will will impose controls to protect themselves, which are oppressive and humiliating, which will lead to Palestinians attacking civilians, which will... Etc etc

Like I said, Israel have a higher ethical obligation to pursue a peaceful solution but it's not their obligation to allow their citizens to die and be kidnapped
 
Bits of random news from telegrams/clips:

- Jalameh checkpoint (Jenin) on fire
- Egyptian policemen shoots dead Israeli tourist begging for help
- Sheikh Zahed square bombed by IAF. Casualties.
- Internet mostly down in gaza (netblocks)
- Gaza taking both constant airstrikes and possible smallish caliber artillery fire. No evidence of PH
- 6 Palestinians dead in Eastern Jerusalem including a child
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
In all seriousness, this happened less than 48 hours ago. People should really cool it with these declarations like "Hamas have managed to burn the majoity of the sympathy in the west for the Palestinian cause." They're not based on anything.
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I think it's common sense that videos of Islamist terror won't do them any favours in the West and as I posted earlier there have already been calls to scrutinize or cut aid and declarations of support for Israel's response from leading politicians.to underline that point.
 
do.ob said:
I think food and medicine are pretty big for day to day life. But maybe that's just me.

I also think there was a slow but steady trend in western media to be more critical with Israel and more sympathetic with Palestine. It's up for discussion what that would have led to in the future, but I guess that's a moot point since yesterday.




Right. I guess they could do without roughly a third of their GDP then.
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And please do pray tell why they are struggling for food and medicine in the first place? If only the German government can do something about that.

And again, getting support from normal every day people does nothing for any concrete hope the Palestinians have to stop being humiliated.

Drainy said:
And there will never be an easing of controls until there is a good faith effort from the Palestinians towards a peace process, which they won't because of the 'oppression and humiliation', which means Israel will will impose controls to protect themselves, which are oppressive and humiliating, which will lead to Palestinians attacking civilians, which will... Etc etc

Like I said, Israel have a higher ethical obligation to pursue a peaceful solution but it's not their obligation to allow their citizens to die and be kidnapped
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Israel also has an obligation to not allow Palestinains to die, be evicted etc but they seem to be doing a pretty lousy job of it. This is the equivalent of the bully saying he won't stop bullying until the kid doesn't stop throwing a punch every now and then.
 
marktan said:
I don't think it makes any difference, pretty much all western nations are heavily pro-Israel, and there's one reason and one reason for it - lobbying. Look at how strong AIPAC is in the US.

Look at how quickly Morsi was removed from power in Egypt as he would've been a threat, and replaced by a US puppet.

The Israeli political and lobbying power is incredibly strong. They'll never allow a 2 state solution - their only goal is to erode the west bank with all the evictions and new settlements.

On support for Palestine, most people have already made up their mind. Either it's the oppressed Gazans stuck in a massive prison camp, or it's Israelis fighting against Terrorists.

I don't think anyone can in good conscience claim Israeli was doing anyone in Gaza any favours, when they control the borders and allow only what they want in inside. There's no freedom, and every year or two they decide to bomb the shit out of the place. Combined with the increased pace of settler attacks and evictions of Palestinians in the west bank, it's not hard to see why Palestinians would be incensed. To then claim the Palestinians are somehow wrong when they have to suffer through that day after day while the world turns a blind eye is minimising how it must feel to be them. I doubt there's a population alive in the world who would meekly go along with those conditions. To deny people freedom, to deny people security in their own property, and then ability to have a military and now settlers kill at will - it's too much.
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Neither side actually wants a two state solution.
 
africanspur said:
OK and how does this impact their day to day life? How does this help them with their aims of self determination? How does it help them stop the settlements and evictions and extra judicial killings which never get punished?

Are Israel more of a pariah than it was 20 years ago? Do they build less settlements? Are Palestinian lives better? can Gazans leave Gaza? Can they fish safely in their own waters? Can a Gazan go to visit their relatives in Bethlehem? Can a Palestinian enter their own territory without an hours long process at the Allenby bridge?

How does it actually help their day to day lives or stop their feeling it helplessness in their situation?
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Since the inception of Israel as a country there have been influential people and states determined to see the project fail, or to use the conflict as a proxy war. This isn't just on Israel.

There are foreign governments who fund terrorists with the explicit goal to prevent a two state solution, at any cost. We had groups of people from all over the world who took every opportunity they could in the 90s to sabotage any lasting two state solution. There are states that use the conflict as a proxy war for regional supremacy, often with no other goal than to prevent normalisation of israeli-arab relationship. In the past there have been incidents where agents of other states, not Israelis or Palestinians, have committed terrorist attacks and false flag operations (posing as IDF) just to sabotage ongoing peace talks. On the milder, but equally effective side, we have groups spreading false propaganda to whip Palestinian sentiment into a frenzy and grow anti-israeli sentiment into he Arab world.

Honestly the issue is extremely complex, not because the Israel vs Palestine conflict at its core is complex, but because of how many actors are involved at all times. It's not just a border conflict and civilians in Palestine suffer because of it.
 
Simbo said:
Really? Feels to me like a couple days ago the Palestinian flag was a symbol of hope and the fight against oppression or whatever and its been turned to a symbol of terrorism overnight. Yesterday's acts were as savage as anything I've seen and I'm not sure it was all just Hamas.

The Palestinian cause took a massive blow yesterday.
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Israel has been taking land for decades, no one was trying to stop them before.

while these attack might speed things up, Israel is going to take all the land eventually just like they planned last week and last decade.

it makes people desperate, you get pointless attacks from people who see themselves as already lost.
 
do.ob said:
I think it's common sense that videos of Islamist terror won't do them any favours in the West and as I posted earlier there have already been calls to scrutinize or cut aid and declarations of support for Israel's response from leading politicians.to underline that point.
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In 2017, a lot of people thought it was common sense that videos of Catalonians getting roughed up by the Spanish police for doing an independence referendum would massively damage Spain's image and all but ensure Catalonian independence.

It's best to see how these things play out.

Anyone who is saying "this is what will happen" is just saying what they want to happen.
 
Beans said:
At a festival for peace no less, very stupid by Hamas.
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There was no such festival for the peace, she had posts on Instragram supporting the IDF against 'terrorist organizations' so I doubt she would attend any festival for peace in Gaza, she was also an Israeli citizen and held an Israeli passport so not exactly a 'tourist'.

Also, I think the posts being referred to is an Israeli being killed in Eygpt, which is even more deplorable, so you're confusing two people.
 
do.ob said:
I think food and medicine are pretty big for day to day life. But maybe that's just me.

I also think there was a slow but steady trend in western media to be more critical with Israel and more sympathetic with Palestine. It's up for discussion what that would have led to in the future, but I guess that's a moot point since yesterday.
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It is a big deal but when you don't have a place to go and live, kind of falls short. Similar to if someone was paying for a hut for someone to stay in but they're not receiving any food. Difficult to live any kind of dignified life without all the basics of food, shelter, dignity.

UNRWA also is aimed at providing those things to Palestinian refugees, in refugee camps. Of which there are only 8 in Gaza. The overwhelming majority are in the west bank, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.

Collective punishment of Israeli citizens = bad. Collective punishment of Palestinia citizens = acceptable.

I guess the west has good experience of wielding economic sanctions against middle eastern countries though and the collective punishment that comes through that so not much difference there.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
In 2017, a lot of people thought it was common sense that videos of Catalonians getting roughed up by the Spanish police for doing an independence referendum would massively damage Spain's image and all but ensure Catalonian independence.

It's best to see how these things play out.

Anyone who is saying "this is what will happen" is just saying what they want to happen.
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I don't think an overly "resolute" police reaction compares to seeing people drive around with a dead, naked, woman on a pickup shouting Allahu Akbar.
 
Beans said:
Israel has been taking land for decades, no one was trying to stop them before.

while these attack might speed things up, Israel is going to take all the land eventually just like they planned last week and last decade.

it makes people desperate, you get pointless attacks from people who see themselves as already lost.
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Didn't they already control all land just two decades ago? Then they gave it up forcing Israeli's out of Gaza?
 
owlo said:
Western governments. Western citizens have almost no power in foreign affairs; it's very rarely a voting priority unless governments make it one by doing something stupid like going to war with Iraq.
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Ah I see. In that case, I have two different answers I guess.

From a realpolitik point of view, I agree. The Palestinians could all be killed tomorrow and they'd issue platitudes against Israel I'm sure but it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to them. And you're right they do have other priorities and this conflict is relatively low priority for them.

From a moral point of view, I don't think the response should be any different to apartheid south Africa. Israel is not China or India. But it won't happen.

Most of my posts on this thread now are to show my sadness at the situation and talking mostly from a moral point of view. I laugh at those who are so upset at Israeli casualties whenever they happen but are noticeably different the rest of the time for instance.

However, as you say, the actual reality of the situation and what will happen is quite different.
 
Beans said:
Israel has been taking land for decades, no one was trying to stop them before.

while these attack might speed things up, Israel is going to take all the land eventually just like they planned last week and last decade.

it makes people desperate, you get pointless attacks from people who see themselves as already lost.
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These aren't Palestinian civilians, they are a well trained militia under direct influence from Iran, provoking a devastating Israeli response in a time where Arab countries are normalizing their relationship with Israel - particularly Saudi Arabia.

This might be the first salvo in Iran's proxy war with Israel. We'll see if Hizbollah and Shiites in Syria join the fray.
 
do.ob said:
I don't think an overly "resolute" police reaction compares to seeing people drive around with a dead, naked, woman on a pickup shouting Allahu Akbar.
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And I don't think what you are describing is going to compare with the level of carnage the Israelis will unleash, either.
 
africanspur said:
It is a big deal but when you don't have a place to go and live, kind of falls short. Similar to if someone was paying for a hut for someone to stay in but they're not receiving any food. Difficult to live any kind of dignified life without all the basics of food, shelter, dignity.

UNRWA also is aimed at providing those things to Palestinian refugees, in refugee camps. Of which there are only 8 in Gaza. The overwhelming majority are in the west bank, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.

Collective punishment of Israeli citizens = bad. Collective punishment of Palestinia citizens = acceptable.

I guess the west has good experience of wielding economic sanctions against middle eastern countries though and the collective punishment that comes through that so not much difference there.
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I don't think it's a very constructive way to look at the world in terms of "perfect or meaningless", change happens incrementally.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
And I don't think what you are describing is going to compare with the level of carnage the Israelis will unleash, either.
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What I described are facts, what Israel will do and - more importantly for public opinion - how it will be reported and perceived - is speculation.
 
do.ob said:
I don't think it's a very constructive way to look at the world in terms of "perfect or meaningless", change happens incrementally.
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There'll be no change as long as Israel can do whatever they want without any repercussion. There are no incentive for them to treat the Palestinian better.
 
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