Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

owlo said:
Agree with pretty much all of this. Once upon a time there was a solution, but I see none now. To the bold, probably me too. There is some nuance there, but the way it was a product of colonialism and great power politics was just crap. I think if Israel were to comprehensively lose an actual war, you could see such a population transfer. And I don't see anyone accepting a Palestinian population transfer even if Israel commit atrocity after atrocity. I see no solution either.

I think what you see out of some posters is fear. I have Jewish friends, and they always face increased hate and violence after episodes like this, from Muslims. This pushes them to the right and the extreme fringes. Those and the ones that actually live in Israel, just trying to live their lives in fear of Hamas and terrorism. (Yes I know the Palestinians face the same fear, and obviously express the same antisemitism.) But my Muslim friends don't face this threat in the diaspora from the Jew; they vent their anger with little reply or acknowledgement for their empathy and pain, so they come here and also become more extreme.This is also where it becomes extremely difficult to distinguish between 'Israel' and 'Jew' - because by default any 'Jew' who isn't brazenly denouncing Israel, becomes Israel. I think this place is just emblematic of that really, the anger and frustration and feeling they are powerless and unjustness is happening.

I try not to blame these posters, and have time for most people other than the trolls. You can see the pain and emotion in some of these posters, and it's not invalid. I think the lies and false hope makes it worse though.
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I agree about the fear aspect and would like to think my posting on this thread has never veered into talking about Jews in any way. However, a lot of the more vile comments are not from people who are Jewish (at least as far as I'm aware). In fact, some of the more reasonable comments on this thread over the past few years have come from Israeli Jews.

As I said, there are maybe 3 or so posters who cannot help but to come in and spew their vile rhetoric every time there is a flare up. It is what it is though.

It does go both ways though. I've got a Jewish friend here in the UK who has recently moved away from support of Israel. He was always a bit different though I guess. Used to wonder out loud how ridiculous it was that he, a British Jew who's family have been settled in the UK for centuries and who'd never set foot in the Middle East, has the right to step onto a plane tomorrow, fly to Israel and set up a life with infinitely more rights than a Palestinian in Gaza/ the West Bank/a refugee camp (and could potentially even displace those said Palestinians if he decided to live in a settlement).

Not necessarily the prevailing view though of course.
 
adexkola said:
It's like saying "whataboutism" is a deflection tactic :D
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Its become the most overused phrase on this board in the past year or so and is usually used in an attempt to shut down any conversation and ignore the context in which actions occur.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
Those Hamas guys are really daft and so transparent. Very chilling if I'm Taiwan now.

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Do you really think Hamas could exert influence on China to annex Taiwan? Like genuinely? Because that is supremely idiotic if you do.
 
Stactix said:
There is no justification for some of the brutality dished out to Civilians in the last few days by Hamas. Holy feck, the whataboutism is insane in this thread. 100s of civilians massacred at a fecking rave, bomb shelters full of civilians including children gunned down, paraded and celebrated. Some of you need to give your head a wobble.

Yes Israel needs to feck off from the shit it's pulling but nothing justifies this shite. Nothing. Quite sickening in all honesty reading some of the comments in this thread.
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I really wish i hadnt watched some of videos being shared. Murdering civilians while shouting god is great grates me in a way i cant express. And even though it is whataboutism there is going to be a ton of footage of people who have blown to bits in retaliation by Israel. Im happy i live in a part of the world where the most shocking news are a few murders a year.
 
What Hamas' doing is undeniably horrible, but it's interesting how it's painted as much more horrible than Israel's history of killing 30 Palestinians (mostly civilians) for every Israeli that dies (historically mostly IDF and police.)

I guess it's a lot more visceral when the killing is guys in the streets with guns rather than bombs dropped from an airplane, but Israel is just as purposeful in their murder of civilians as Hamas.
 
It’s a shit situation all round and both sides are guilty of many crimes. But nothing justifies indiscriminately murdering and parading civilians through the streets as some sort of trophy. Hamas doing a good job of positioning themselves alongside IS.
 
marktan said:
Sisi is almost certainly a US/Israeli puppet anyway, the speed and brutality at the way Morsi was overthrown shows that. Egypt have been almost no help to the Palestinians for a long time, Morsi probably would've been a change.

Honestly I'm fairly sure a lot of the so called Arab Spring etc had heavy western backing. Didn't like Saddam? Gone. Didn't like Gadaffi? Gone. They tried it in Iran and Syria. Who does all that benefit but the west? The only ones that never seen to have any trouble are all the gulf states which are basically western anyway and places like Jordan which couldn't be less of a threat if it tried.
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I don't really want to get into this in this thread but I've always been incredibly dismissive of this view, having in laws from the region. The various (non-oil) dictators there, whether technocrats, military men, kings or from a political party, have sapped all hope out of an entire generation and run their countries into the ground for selfish purposes. The Arab youth had no choice, no prospects, no escape.

The Mullahs, Assad, Mubarak etc are and were all utter scum.
 
africanspur said:
I don't really want to get into this in this thread but I've always been incredibly dismissive of this view, having in laws from the region. The various (non-oil) dictators there, whether technocrats, military men, kings or from a political party, have sapped all hope out of an entire generation and run their countries into the ground for selfish purposes. The Arab youth had no choice, no prospects, no escape.

The Mullahs, Assad, Mubarak etc are and were all utter scum.
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Fascinating how much support and rhetoric there was for the Arab Spring and more than a decade later you have people pretty much dismissing them as "Western orchestrated". Never mind the real anger that the people in these different countries felt towards their leaders.
 
Stactix said:
There is no justification for some of the brutality dished out to Civilians in the last few days by Hamas. Holy feck, the whataboutism is insane in this thread. 100s of civilians massacred at a fecking rave, bomb shelters full of civilians including children gunned down, paraded and celebrated. Some of you need to give your head a wobble.

Yes Israel needs to feck off from the shit it's pulling but nothing justifies this shite. Nothing. Quite sickening in all honesty reading some of the comments in this thread.
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Bingo. I can’t claim to be an expert in the history of the area, but I understand it isn’t black and white, and Israel are far from the “good guys”. However, *nothing* excuses the indiscriminate gunning down of civilians, children etc

This was not an act of resistance, this was an act of terrorism. People trying to equate it to Ukraine especially beed to give their heads a wobble.

Lots of “some really good people on both sides” comments here.
 
africanspur said:
I agree about the fear aspect and would like to think my posting on this thread has never veered into talking about Jews in any way. However, a lot of the more vile comments are not from people who are Jewish (at least as far as I'm aware). In fact, some of the more reasonable comments on this thread over the past few years have come from Israeli Jews.

As I said, there are maybe 3 or so posters who cannot help but to come in and spew their vile rhetoric every time there is a flare up. It is what it is though.

It does go both ways though. I've got a Jewish friend here in the UK who has recently moved away from support of Israel. He was always a bit different though I guess. Used to wonder out loud how ridiculous it was that he, a British Jew who's family have been settled in the UK for centuries and who'd never set foot in the Middle East, has the right to step onto a plane tomorrow, fly to Israel and set up a life with infinitely more rights than a Palestinian in Gaza/ the West Bank/a refugee camp (and could potentially even displace those said Palestinians if he decided to live in a settlement).

Not necessarily the prevailing view though of course.
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I've never seen it. I know I sometimes get frustrated and flirt the lines, but I like to think my posting is balanced and relatively from the perspective I offer it. Even if its one that neither side likes, especially Palestinians.

About the argument there, I've actually had the same view as your friend and had the argument he did! Even asking what an Israeli must think about immigrant jews coming to take their property and jobs. But I've come to understand that in the post wwii world where the Jewish state needed immigration and Jews needed haven, it was a logical step. Even post war not all immigration channels were open to Jews. Nowadays the law of return is tiny numbers, so there's no reason to change it from the 'Jewish State' setup. Its admirable in a way.

See the poster below for example (sorry if you see this Marktan, I could have picked anyone) - It's a deeply offensive post to many especially the last bit in brackets, whilst an honest opinion he holds. It's also completely devoid of reality [in my opinion] and an attitude that will see thousands of lives lost and dreams gone. It's going to bring hell not negotiations to Gaza.


marktan said:
In the end as terrible as it is, this is the only option left to the Palestinians. The status quo doesn't work.

Gaza remains a prison, the west bank is slowly getting annexed via evictions, and no one will help them politically.

This is their only option to bring negotiations back to the table while there's still any of Palestine left to salvage. Israel may think their deterrent of 10x the Palestinian deaths for every Israeli would work, but all that does is create more hatred and more people willing to die for the cause from the family and friends of the people they kill.

Israel has no willingness to negotiate any sort of state for Palestine (which I understand, why would they legitimise a rival state), so these attacks will continue and will increase in frequency. Until one of two things happens - they forcibly remove all Palestinians from Gaza and West Bank or give them a state. The former is more likely.

(Also Israel can't particularly be outraged at these attacks - it's the same playbook they used against the British pre ww2 to bring them to the negotiating table)
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Would it not be a better options to explore ways to leave?
 
marktan said:
In the end as terrible as it is, this is the only option left to the Palestinians. The status quo doesn't work.

Gaza remains a prison, the west bank is slowly getting annexed via evictions, and no one will help them politically.

This is their only option to bring negotiations back to the table while there's still any of Palestine left to salvage. Israel may think their deterrent of 10x the Palestinian deaths for every Israeli would work, but all that does is create more hatred and more people willing to die for the cause from the family and friends of the people they kill.

Israel has no willingness to negotiate any sort of state for Palestine (which I understand, why would they legitimise a rival state), so these attacks will continue and will increase in frequency. Until one of two things happens - they forcibly remove all Palestinians from Gaza and West Bank or give them a state. The former is more likely.

(Also Israel can't particularly be outraged at these attacks - it's the same playbook they used against the British pre ww2 to bring them to the negotiating table)
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I can think of a few instances over the last 100 years where this hasnt been the "only option". Talks came close to a 2 state solution decades ago but that has been buried for a long time now. When i do discuss this with family and friends, i frequently mention if i had been born in Gaza i would probably be a jihadist as well. But what Hamas has just done is not just shooting themselves in the foot its shooting themselves and their citizens in the head. Its not intelligent strategic thinking.
 
africanspur said:
I don't really want to get into this in this thread but I've always been incredibly dismissive of this view, having in laws from the region. The various (non-oil) dictators there, whether technocrats, military men, kings or from a political party, have sapped all hope out of an entire generation and run their countries into the ground for selfish purposes. The Arab youth had no choice, no prospects, no escape.

The Mullahs, Assad, Mubarak etc are and were all utter scum.
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Iran is one of the biggest travesties of our time. If Bush hadn't been a coward, we'd have invaded them not Iraq and been far better off for it.
 
Walrus said:
Bingo. I can’t claim to be an expert in the history of the area, but I understand it isn’t black and white, and Israel are far from the “good guys”. However, *nothing* excuses the indiscriminate gunning down of civilians, children etc

This was not an act of resistance, this was an act of terrorism. People trying to equate it to Ukraine especially beed to give their heads a wobble.

Lots of “some really good people on both sides” comments here.
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It's not about that I think.

Justifying is not the same as understanding why something happened (so you can prevent it from happening again).

We know from thousands of years of history, if you treat humans like sub-humans, animals, for long enough, and they will become and act like animals.
 
marktan said:
In the end as terrible as it is, this is the only option left to the Palestinians. The status quo doesn't work.

Gaza remains a prison, the west bank is slowly getting annexed via evictions, and no one will help them politically.

This is their only option to bring negotiations back to the table while there's still any of Palestine left to salvage. Israel may think their deterrent of 10x the Palestinian deaths for every Israeli would work, but all that does is create more hatred and more people willing to die for the cause from the family and friends of the people they kill.

Israel has no willingness to negotiate any sort of state for Palestine (which I understand, why would they legitimise a rival state), so these attacks will continue and will increase in frequency. Until one of two things happens - they forcibly remove all Palestinians from Gaza and West Bank or give them a state. The former is more likely.

(Also Israel can't particularly be outraged at these attacks - it's the same playbook they used against the British pre ww2 to bring them to the negotiating table)
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I can understand that mindset only from the people in Gaza and the West Bank being crushed because everything else has failed. I don't get it from a lot of people in the last day on social media with locations showing they're in Britain or America cheering it on as Hamas's actions are a successful revolution when as you say the likelihood is Netanyahu will now wipe the Palestinians off the map once and for all.
 
Mogget said:
I went through your posts in this thread and not one post could you spare for Palestinian victims of past Israeli attacks. Says a lot about a poster.

If you're going to criticise someone for being biased maybe try hide your own bias a little better.
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Whataboutism at its finest.

Your comparison would have worked if i had defended Israel attack by mentioning how Hamas does it too.

I dont have a skin in the game and can call out bias as i see fit. If i see Israel people parading young woman corpse naked and spitting on them, i wont respond with how it is justified because the other side has done something similar. As someone else pointed out, you can call out this attack as barbaric and still support the innocents suffering in Gaza strip. But if your response is only to respond with “what about this and that” then you deserve to be called out and your opinion can be classified as biased.
 
Gehrman said:
I can think of a few instances over the last 100 years where this hasnt been the "only option". Talks came close to a 2 state solution decades ago but that has been buried for a long time now. When i do discuss this with family and friends, i frequently mention if i had been born in Gaza i would probably be a jihadist as well. But what Hamas has just done is not just shooting themselves in the foot its shooting themselves and their citizens in the head. Its not intelligent strategic thinking.
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I’ve seen this point made a lot. But I don’t think you can say that something isn’t strategic if you don’t know what their strategy is. From an outside perspective it seems illogical, like poking a bear, I appreciate that. But do you think the people who planned this genuinely didn’t think through the obvious response by Israel, and accept those consequences as part of their overall strategy?
 
pratyush_utd said:
Whataboutism at its finest.

Your comparison would have worked if i had defended Israel attack by mentioning how Hamas does it too.

I dont have a skin in the game and can call out bias as i see fit. If i see Israel people parading young woman corpse naked and spitting on them, i wont respond with how it is justified because the other side has done something similar. As someone else pointed out, you can call out this attack as barbaric and still support the innocents suffering in Gaza strip. But if your response is only to respond with “what about this and that” then you deserve to be called out and your opinion can be classified as biased.
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I honestly think you should stop using the term ‘whataboutism’. You don’t use it appropriately, and more importantly you only use it so you don’t have to acknowledge things that are tough to acknowledge.
 
The Corinthian said:
The absolute lack of self awareness.
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How is this a lack of self awareness?

Being blown up for an idea vs a life of peace for my family seems an easy choice for me. It's called reality as opposed to fairytales.
 
NicolaSacco said:
I’ve seen this point made a lot. But I don’t think you can say that something isn’t strategic if you don’t know what their strategy is. From an outside perspective it seems illogical, like poking a bear, I appreciate that. But do you think the people who planned this genuinely didn’t think through the obvious response by Israel, and accept those consequences as part of their overall strategy?
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No because in Jihad dying is winning, its the fastest ticket to the highest heaven. And it has always ever only brought more misery to its citizens in the past in this conflict anyway.
 
owlo said:
Iran is one of the biggest travesties of our time. If Bush hadn't been a coward, we'd have invaded them not Iraq and been far better off for it.
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Yes, Iran is the main reason behind the instability in the Middle East, especially against Israel. I will never understand how the west keeps relations with them with the knowledge that a big part of their money goes into financing terrorism. The people of Iran try to demonstrate peacefully every now and then, but without weapons they stand no chance of overthrowing the Mullahs. Just look at the Iranian urban centre photos from the 70s, how people and especially women were dressed and their western lifestyle. The mullahs have not only returned their own country to the Middle Ages, they're also trying to do the same throughout the Middle East.
 
owlo said:
Would it not be a better options to explore ways to leave?
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why should they? It's their home. It's always been their home. I'm specifically referring to the civilians who has been traumatized, poisoned , and displaced from their homes over and over again.
 
Gehrman said:
No because in Jihad dying is winning, its the fastest ticket to the highest heaven. And it has always ever only brought more misery to its citizens in the past.
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If you choose to interpret this whole thing as a suicide mission, with no real-world strategy, then that’s your choice. I’m about as certain as I can be that this is not what’s happening here.
 
NicolaSacco said:
If you choose to interpret this whole thing as a suicide mission, with no real-world strategy, then that’s your choice. I’m about as certain as I can be that this is not what’s happening here.
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Then what do you honestly think is going to happen? Israel arent going to leave. Any notion they can live side by side is gone for sure. 2 state solution is completely dead. My perception of Hamas is that they arent more intelligenty endowed than Isis.
 
owlo said:
How is this a lack of self awareness?

Being blown up for an idea vs a life of peace for my family seems an easy choice for me. It's called reality as opposed to fairytales.
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Because they would rather die for the land that’s rightfully theirs rather than leave because it makes you or some other people who have no idea what the situation is on the ground more comfortable.
 
The Corinthian said:
Do you really think Hamas could exert influence on China to annex Taiwan? Like genuinely? Because that is supremely idiotic if you do.
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Never said I do, but one thing remains certain: the attacks on Ukraine and Israel are the symptoms of something bigger. Any wrong course of actions from the West will embolden the rotten lot on the other side to do even more.
 
Boycott said:
I can understand that mindset only from the people in Gaza and the West Bank being crushed because everything else has failed. I don't get it from a lot of people in the last day on social media with locations showing they're in Britain or America cheering it on as Hamas's actions are a successful revolution when as you say the likelihood is Netanyahu will now wipe the Palestinians off the map once and for all.
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Not going to happen, because:

a) Israeli politicians are already phrasing their intentions as "extinguishing all of Hamas' capabilities", and not "destroy them for good".
you could say that their words are bollox as they are politicians,

But these are statements directed towards the Israeli public, not some propaganda stuff you say to the outer world. They are setting the ground for the nullification of Hamas, and its resurgence in some years to the same abilities it has now, as the goal Israel aspires to.

b) They know that Israel can't make them disappear or dissolve. IDF can't stay in Gaza for good, soldiers will get killed on a daily basis. The Israeli public (mothers of soldiers for the most part) will pressurize the government to get out of there, the same as they did in Lebanon.

c) for Netanyahu, even something as horrific as what happens now, is less of an existential threat than any implementation of a Palestinian state. So long as Hamas is reigning in Gaza, the 2 states' solution is off the table.

And I'm not even talking about the ~100 people that are now kidnapped into Gaza. Feck knows how they're planning to get them out.
It's hard to explain to people that are not Israelis how much of a sensitive issue it is in the eyes of the public. I would dare to say- more than children, women, or the elderly getting slaughtered.

1-2 kidnapped soldiers/civilians is something that would cause absolute havoc to the Israeli public for years and years, until they are released. 100 kidnapped people is something no one could have ever imagined. It's like the apocalypse.

Very very different from, say, American soldiers that are kidnapped in Afghanistan, just to use an example. They could be held there for years, and the American public would not be in turmoil.

Of course the families will hurt massively, but the general public will be like "oh crap, that's bad. hope they get back asap." They probably won't be the first thing that's covered on the daily news for months and months.
 
owlo said:
I've never seen it. I know I sometimes get frustrated and flirt the lines, but I like to think my posting is balanced and relatively from the perspective I offer it. Even if its one that neither side likes, especially Palestinians.

About the argument there, I've actually had the same view as your friend and had the argument he did! Even asking what an Israeli must think about immigrant jews coming to take their property and jobs. But I've come to understand that in the post wwii world where the Jewish state needed immigration and Jews needed haven, it was a logical step. Even post war not all immigration channels were open to Jews. Nowadays the law of return is tiny numbers, so there's no reason to change it from the 'Jewish State' setup. Its admirable in a way.

See the poster below for example (sorry if you see this Marktan, I could have picked anyone) - It's a deeply offensive post to many especially the last bit in brackets, whilst an honest opinion he holds. It's also completely devoid of reality [in my opinion] and an attitude that will see thousands of lives lost and dreams gone. It's going to bring hell not negotiations to Gaza.


Would it not be a better options to explore ways to leave?
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I know a lot of Palestinians and have met them across different countries. I've met maybe 2 or 3 Gazans abroad, all in the Middle East. A few more who left when Gaza was easier to get out of. It is almost impossible to get out now and certainly to go anywhere worth going for a period of time.

I think we'll have to strongly agree to disagree about Aliyah being admirable (in the context it happens in, as opposed to an alternate reality where it was genuinely a land without a people) or that its tiny numbers, as its still tens of thousands of people every year.
 
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