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Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
- Thread starter esmufc07
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Correct.
And Hamas have managed to burn the majority of the sympathy in the west for the Palestinian cause, that has been building over decades, in a single day.
Yup, huge self-own.
I had a quick look before posting... "back to the Land of Israel, and the re-establishment of the Jewish Nation" which seems to me like the Jewish people inhabited this area way way way long ago but that doesn't seem to agree with what I'm seeing elsewhere today.
Again let me reiterate this is something I know nothing about and I'd like to educate myself a bit given the events happening at the moment. I just want to find the correct source.
This is what militaries do in conflict. Feel free to rage against major powers and how they do things, but don‘t pretend to yourself that it’s exclusive to Israel.
They don’t randomly shoot dead children unless they want to go on trial for murder.
Like you pretend hamas killing civilians is barbarism, and when israel does it, the victims should be grateful.
They did until the Romans expelled them. It's nothing to do with the modern politics of today though. Palestinian and Jewish DNA has almost the same percentage of "ancient israelite"
A reliable “quick rundown or link” may be hard to find for you in this case, there are multiple histories intertwined with each furiously debated and contested in their own right as well as in the specific context of the present-day situation.
What have I said that? I've said multiple times the response will be murderous and brutal, and many innocents will suffer for it. I've never said the modern military machine is 'just' or cares about innocents.
edit: I've also clearly stated I understand the brutality of Hamas, and their actions are not illogical.
The roof knocks work well for Israel. Israel has precisely zero concern for Palestinian lives, only public opinion. High numbers of deaths looks bad for PR. So Israel devises ways to minimize the number of deaths and maximize the suffering. Ergo: Flatten their homes and shoot them in the knees and ankles.
History written by winners and interpreted in many ways is one thing, accepting the UN charter another. The only way a civilized world can function today is for everyone to accept the UN charter. Those who don't accept it are bringing misery, death and barbarism to this world.
So you don't see, on any level, that the state of Israel is facing the consequences of its well-documented crimes and impunity?
You said they don't randomly shoot children dead...when they clearly have done...a lot of times it's on film.
You make this clear distinction between the barbarism of hamas the approach of the Israelis....when in reality one side has all the money and the might and has had no qualms in going against Geneva conventions etc.
Do you think it's justified right now to cut off gaza completely and its million and a half people from all fuel, water and food..as well as medical aid, whilst bombing the crap out of it.?
I'd somewhat agree with this. I don't think they want to kill, but they don't have a particular issue with doing so or causing indirect deaths to achieve their goals. The more egregious example I believe you should use is the cutting off of the water and power supplies. That's just pure cruelty, designed to maximise suffering to erode Hamas support without caring an iota about the population. This is their Pearl Harbor, and they are going to cause the maximum damage they can within the ROE. Reminds me of the song Kenji by Fort Minor.
Jewish rule lasted about 414 years (before the state of Israel). The graphic is just Jerusalem but gives you a very good idea of the various periods of rule
The ROE as you put it, for hamas is that the israelis are evil occupiers and thus their citizens are fair game as it were..I don't agree with it, buts that's no different to justifying punishing all Palestinians. But you seem to use israels arbitrary ROE as an excuse for them wantonly breaching Geneva conventions and international law..
You misunderstand me. I don't think Israel is in the right. I think they are a major power fighting an armed insurgency, and they will win. I don't think that what they will do is justified, but I believe its the same as the Americans, British, French, or any other major power would do in the same situation. This is simply how nations react to such events.
I believe that the Hamas reaction is understandable, and that Palestinians living there feel it's the same oppression and fighting back will change nothing, but that they have underestimated the levels of brutality and misunderstood low vs high intensity conflict. I believe they've taken lessons from the Ukraine war without realising the severe geographical and technological differences. I also believe they were led to believe that other groups would join the struggle, noticably Hezbollah to give them a realistic shot of 'winning.'
I believe that Israel will brutally and mercilessly react with scant regard for Palestinian well being, and attempt to root them out forever. I believe that in a 140 square mile region it's going to be one of the worst and saddest massacres in the 21st century causing untold misery. And I believe that if I was a Palestinian my best choice would be to get out now. (Even though emotionally I'd want to fight to the death.)
No, I think that ROE is for western alignment, and to uphold military standards. Not because they care about the enemy. I have never said they are 'right.'
Right, well perhaps you can comment on the thread and not your idea of the thread.
Oh really?
West Bank: Spike in Israeli Killings of Palestinian Children
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children
Christ, I hate that man.
Parading the naked body of a young murdered German tourist in the back of a Ute isn't going to fly well. Israel has now been handed the opportunity to do what they want. Gaza will be lucky not to be reduced to a pile of rubble.
Kinell. The sheer idiocy of this attack is truly hard to comprehend.
The sort of person who makes you re-examine any opinion you may have when he agrees you.
If he said gravity was real I'd have to have a good hard think.
Have they? Also what sympathy?
Sorry for misunderstanding you POV..
Partially agree, but Palestine ain't just Hamas. It's also Fatah, independents, and IJ. Distinction between factions (and geo - WB/Gaza) is crucial to understand any of it.
Support for the Palestinians won't suffer, because it's going, unfortunately, to be a shitshow of a retaliation.
This thread's alresdy emotionally charged enough, why post something like this that is categorically not true?
e - for clarity, the Israelis aren't wantonly or indiscriminately bombing targets inside Gaza, up to now it's been far more surgical.
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If he said gravity was real, I'd jump out a skyscraper
I doubt rational people lost sympathy for the Palestinian peoples struggle because a thousand or whatever terrorists decided to go mayhem.
I’m meant to be going Israel and Jordan next month. I don’t think going to Israel is a good idea now!
There has built a huge amount of sympathy in my lifetime, particularly in the last 2 decades. Before that Israel were viewed as heroic plucky survivors in the middle of enemies who wanted them wiped off the face of the earth. And they have undoubtedly burnt a huge amount of that in a single day. Israel could raise the entire Gaza strip now and there won't be much push back in the west.
But in truth, what has that sympathy brought the Palestinians? Absolutely feck all.
Sides have been picked and this isn't gonna change anything.
This was always going to happen regardless.
I don't think so, I think the people who support them still will
Would another way to put this be that we're seeing a spike in the Palestinian use of child combatants?
The UN Secretary-General is mandated by the Security Council to annually list military forces and armed groups responsible for grave violations against children in armed conflict. Between 2015 and 2022, the UN attributed over 8,700 child casualties to Israeli forces, yet Israel has never been listed. The reports have repeatedly listed other forces that killed and injured far fewer children than Israel did.
Could this be why the UN is yet to add Israel to this "list of shame"?
For example Germany has been paying €340m in aid over the last two years and our finance minister reportedly has asked the foreign minister for an assessment whether that money should continue to flow, because: "the terror is shocking. We shouldn't just react to it with words."
One of his fellow party members wanted all "German, EU and UN financial aid" to be put under review to rule out contributing to anti-Israel or antisemitic causes.
This is why I don't get why some people are so quick to defend the actions of Hamas and try to rationally explain them. The consequences of yesterday will not be a benefit for Palestinians, quite the contrary. There have been concentrated diplomatic efforts to prevent the worst hawks in the knesset to gain influence over how to deal with Gaza and Palestine. I'm not convinced that those voices can be kept down any longer after yesterday's attack.
I said the Palestinian cause. A massive own goal that will allow Israel free reign to solve the "Palestinian problem".
And I imagine all or almost all of the weaponry and other costs either came from Iran or aid dollars.
Anyone who thinks this is a clear cut situation needs to start with the bible. And why Israel demanded to be given what they saw as their homeland. Especially after the Holocaust of WW2.
They were offered a small piece of land in South America but pressurised the UN to be given, what was initially a small piece of land in what was then Palestine. This small piece of land was seen as militarily insignificant and moreover very difficult to defend. And just as importantly with no access to the sea or water supply.
Some expected the Egyptians and other Arab states to literally overrun them almost straight away.
But far from that, they have, with huge backing from the US, progressively won significantly more land including The Gaza Strip and the much larger West Bank.
And the rest is as they say history.
They were offered a small piece of land in South America but pressurised the UN to be given, what was initially a small piece of land in what was then Palestine. This small piece of land was seen as militarily insignificant and moreover very difficult to defend. And just as importantly with no access to the sea or water supply.
Some expected the Egyptians and other Arab states to literally overrun them almost straight away.
But far from that, they have, with huge backing from the US, progressively won significantly more land including The Gaza Strip and the much larger West Bank.
And the rest is as they say history.
This would matter more/ Palestinians would care more if western sympathy actually did anything at all for their cause or their daily lives.
The occupation is ongoing and brutal. Evictions continue in the west bank. Settlements continue there. Shootings by settlers with impunity happen. Water restrictions happen. Military operations killing and injuring dozens happen.
And....what does the west do? Increasingly for that matter, what does the Arab world do?
Sympathy for the Palestinian cause probably peaked during the First Intifada. I think for the last couple of decades it has mostly been indifference. The world left Gaza to rot for 16 years (and the Palestinian cause in general) and now it is suddenly shocked by today's events. Really?