Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

2cents said:
That article is focused on Europe, it doesn’t discuss the condition of Mizrahi Jews except towards the very end which states:
​
“In Palestine, the British attempted to prevent immigration. The foundation of the State of Israel on 14 May 1948 changed this situation. However, most countries of the Middle East declared Jews an undesirable minority, partially already during the Israeli War of Independence. As a result, the centuries-old settlement centres in North Africa and the Eastern Mediterranean disappeared from the map within a few months. Jewish communities in Damascus, Bagdad and Yemen, which were now subject to rapid and sometimes violent dissolution, could even be traced back to the pre-Christian era.”​

I actually think that is an overstatement/simplification of what happened. But in any case, there is nothing in the article to support the claim that most Mizrahim went to Europe and America for economic reasons. The record is very clear regarding where most of them ended up, to the extent that it is believed that a majority of Israeli Jews today have at least a partial Mizrahi heritage (in contrast to American Jews who are overwhelmingly Ashkenazi with a heritage traceable to Central and Eastern Europe). The exact/immediate reasons for their departure from the Arab lands is more varied. It is true that economic factors played a role in certain contexts, as did ideological impulses (the draw of Zionism). But the growth of anti-Jewish hostility in Arab countries in the interwar and immediate post-war years, combined with the ready availability of a state willing to accept them, was the probably the most important factor.

(As an aside, I struggle to see how the account given in the article supports the ‘normalization thesis’ - perhaps I’m missing something but apart from the 19th/early twentieth centuries, it seems that most of the mass Jewish migration discussed was indeed in response to persecution and/or the threat of violence).
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Is this somehow supposed to justify the horrors inflicted on the Palestinians? Would any of this happen if the Zionist project, orchestrated by European Jews, didn’t come to life? Arabs and Jews tension was never an issue before that.

Were the promises of European Jews to Mizrahi Jews kept? Were they equal upon arrival? Weren’t there segregated communities of white Jews and “black” Jews? Weren’t they thrown in the deserts wanting to go back to Morocco and Algeria?

No matter how you look at it, this is a European colonial project backed by the biggest colonial powers.
 
IhabX7 said:
Is this somehow supposed to justify the horrors inflicted on the Palestinians?
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Not at all, the Palestinians were not involved. However denying the history of the flight from the Arab countries is at best misguided.

IhabX7 said:
Would any of this happen if the Zionist project, orchestrated by European Jews, didn’t come to life? Arabs and Jews tension was never an issue before that.
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The rise of Zionism was the immediate factor fueling the growth of anti-Jewish hostility in the region. In turn, the growth of this hostility made Zionism appeal to a broader swathe of the region’s Jews than it might otherwise have been expected to. As for pre-Zionist Arab-Jewish relations, I don’t believe they were as bad as some like to make out, nor as rosy as others. Fair to say that the modern experience of many religious and ethnic minorities in the Arab countries has been tough, though the experience and reasons differ from place to place and are not always easy to disentangle from the modern history of Arabs as a whole.

IhabX7 said:
Were the promises of European Jews to Mizrahi Jews kept? Were they equal upon arrival? Weren’t there segregated communities of white Jews and “black” Jews? Weren’t they thrown in the deserts wanting to go back to Morocco and Algeria?
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Yes it’s true that Israel struggled for a long time to overcome racist attitudes and discriminatory policies directed at the Mizrahim. Perhaps still struggling to a certain degree, but as generations have passed this has been much less and less of an issue. Mizrahi Jews aren’t exactly pining to return to the lands of their grandparents.

IhabX7 said:
No matter how you look at it, this is a European colonial project backed by the biggest colonial powers.
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I think I’d describe it as a European nationalist-colonial project in its origins. After more than a century though I’m not sure it fits these kinds of categories neatly. Whatever it was and is today, it’s been embraced by its Jewish citizens (and most of the Jewish diaspora to some degree) whatever their heritage. And the major factor driving this embrace in the 20th century was the persecution suffered at the hands of others combined with the closing and failure of alternative means of salvation for them.
 
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2cents said:
Not at all, the Palestinians were not involved. However denying the history of the flight from the Arab countries is at best misguided.



The rise of Zionism was the immediate factor fueling the growth of anti-Jewish hostility in the region. In turn, the growth of this hostility made Zionism appeal to a broader swathe of the region’s Jews than it might otherwise have been expected to. As for pre-Zionist Arab-Jewish relations, I don’t believe they were as bad as some like to make out, nor as rosy as others. Fair to say that the modern experience of many religious and ethnic minorities in the Arab countries has been tough, though the experience and reasons differ from place to place and are not always easy to disentangle from the modern history of Arabs as a whole.



Yes it’s true that Israel struggled for a long time to overcome racist attitudes and discriminatory policies directed at the Mizrahim. Perhaps still struggling to a certain degree, but as generations have passed this has been much less and less of an issue. Mizrahi Jews aren’t exactly pining to return to the lands of their grandparents.



I think I’d describe it as a European nationalist-colonial project in its origins. After more than a century though I’m not sure it fits these kinds of categories neatly. Whatever it was and is today, it’s been embraced by its Jewish citizens (and most of the Jewish diaspora to some degree) whatever their heritage. And the major factor driving this embrace in the 20th century was the persecution suffered at the hands of others combined with the closing and failure of alternative means of salvation for them.
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Quite a few inaccuracies and parroting of nuance based Israeli propaganda in your post (not saying you're taking sides, I don't know you), but again, this is all dancing around the real issue. Do you see Israel as an apartheid state?
 
IhabX7 said:
Quite a few inaccuracies and parroting of nuance based Israeli propaganda in your post (not saying you're taking sides, I don't know you), but again, this is all dancing around the real issue. Do you see Israel as an apartheid state?
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What exactly are the inaccuracies and parotting of propaganda in his post?
 
IhabX7 said:
Quite a few inaccuracies and parroting of nuance based Israeli propaganda in your post (not saying you're taking sides, I don't know you), but again, this is all dancing around the real issue. Do you see Israel as an apartheid state?
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What's inaccurate in his post? @2cents is probably the most knowledgeable poster in this thread on matters of history. Also I do believe you are on the same side.
 
IhabX7 said:
this is all dancing around the real issue.
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Well @Sultan raised the topic of the flight from the Arab countries, and you then proceeded to enter the discussion. I'm happy to keep the focus on contemporary matters, but as you know history is frequently invoked and hard to avoid on this subject.

IhabX7 said:
Do you see Israel as an apartheid state?
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By the definitions applied by the human rights organizations recently, I'd say yes, although I think the terms "ethnocracy" or "ethnostate" probably capture the essence of the state a bit better. I'm not opposed to the apartheid label, but I'm interested to see what use is made of it. I think drawing direct comparisons to South Africa is helpful in some ways but obscures important things in other ways, but as 'apartheid' now has a broader meaning, Israel can't avoid it while pursuing the policies it is currently engaged in.
 
‘Arabs are taking over the country’: Likud aims next campaign at far-right voters
Netanyahu's party to propose deporting terrorists' families, jail terms for flying the Palestinian flag or burning Israel's, stripping citizenship for demonstrating during war

So demonstrating and flying a Palestinian flag are worthy of jail time for Likud.
 
IhabX7 said:
Nothing too important, I'll get to it after work. Where are you from @2cents mate?
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Ireland.

(Edit): I should also explain, I lived in Israel for a couple of years a decade or so ago, so I'm not without my bias - I have Israeli friends, mentors, etc. so the mainstream Israeli way of seeing things does come somewhat naturally to me. I also spent time living in East Jerusalem (Beit Hanina) back then, and have visited all the major cities in the West Bank, but generally I had much less interaction with Palestinians during my time there.
 
The Corinthian said:
‘Arabs are taking over the country’: Likud aims next campaign at far-right voters
Netanyahu's party to propose deporting terrorists' families, jail terms for flying the Palestinian flag or burning Israel's, stripping citizenship for demonstrating during war

So demonstrating and flying a Palestinian flag are worthy of jail time for Likud.
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All perfectly normal laws for a democracy to have......
 
2cents said:
Ireland.

(Edit): I should also explain, I lived in Israel for a couple of years a decade or so ago, so I'm not without my bias - I have Israeli friends, mentors, etc. so the mainstream Israeli way of seeing things does come somewhat naturally to me. I also spent time living in East Jerusalem (Beit Hanina) back then, and have visited all the major cities in the West Bank, but generally I had much less interaction with Palestinians during my time there.
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That's it then. I'm not saying you're spouting untruths, but the way you laid it out seemed very familiar because I've heard this rhetoric or portrayal of history from Israelis all my life. They use it as some form of defence. i.e They'd rather get you lost in nuance and technicalities than facing the horrific results of the atrocities they've inflicted on the palestinian people.
 
IhabX7 said:
That's it then. I'm not saying you're spouting untruths, but the way you laid it out seemed very familiar because I've heard this rhetoric or portrayal of history from Israelis all my life. They use it as some form of defence. i.e They'd rather get you lost in nuance and technicalities than facing the horrific results of the atrocities they've inflicted on the palestinian people.
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Yes, I understand that as a Palestinian you’re not inclined to accept or engage with what you perceive to be Zionist historiography, certainly not while there’s a Zionist boot on your neck. And of course you’re free to discount everything I say on the subject. But for what it’s worth, I am far more interested in understanding than in justifying or defending anything. And I believe that on the question of why exactly Jews came to embrace Zionism in the 20th century, my understanding is correct, and is drawn from a lot more than my experience of Israel. That need imply nothing else about my understanding of the actual reality of Zionism for Palestinians or their responses to it.
 
The Corinthian said:
‘Arabs are taking over the country’: Likud aims next campaign at far-right voters
Netanyahu's party to propose deporting terrorists' families, jail terms for flying the Palestinian flag or burning Israel's, stripping citizenship for demonstrating during war

So demonstrating and flying a Palestinian flag are worthy of jail time for Likud.
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This could easily be the Republican platform in 2024.
 
2cents said:
Yes, I understand that as a Palestinian you’re not inclined to accept or engage with what you perceive to be Zionist historiography, certainly not while there’s a Zionist boot on your neck. And of course you’re free to discount everything I say on the subject. But for what it’s worth, I am far more interested in understanding than in justifying or defending anything. And I believe that on the question of why exactly Jews came to embrace Zionism in the 20th century, my understanding is correct, and is drawn from a lot more than my experience of Israel. That need imply nothing else about my understanding of the actual reality of Zionism for Palestinians or their responses to it.
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I always enjoy reading your responses.

I don't think I'm in the same category as you with regards to the knowledge you show. However, and not showing off here, I do have an interest in history to the point I wrote a "dissertation" of sorts on Islam and Judaism in the early nineties with an ex lecturer/friend who is Jewish. We had some cracking discussions many times falling out with each other only to resume days later.

On the issue of Zionism. We, My lecturer friend and I, had conversations and I think the "truth" is closer to many Jews (especially from the middle East) being coerced into accepting Zionism rather than willingly coming to it.
 
Sultan said:
Shalom Aleichem

May God give us all the understanding, and strength to see the truth and seek justice for our fellow human beings regardless of our religious, and cultural affiliations with any country or its people. I pray God keeps us firm on the path of guidance and do not allow us to deviate from it.
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Agreed and appreciated.
 
Israeli Military Will Not Conduct Criminal Probe Into Al Jazeera Reporter’s Death
Military's Police will not open an investigation into the killing of Shireen Abu Akleh on grounds that there is no suspicion of a criminal act. Decision likely to provoke criticism from Washington

Quelle surprise.

No justice, no accountability. Israel is a joke. Killing journos with impunity.
 
IhabX7 said:
Is this somehow supposed to justify the horrors inflicted on the Palestinians? Would any of this happen if the Zionist project, orchestrated by European Jews, didn’t come to life? Arabs and Jews tension was never an issue before that.
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Here is the list of full massacres and ethnic cleansing and persecution done to Jews by Muslims before the birth of Zionism:

622 – 627: ethnic cleansing of Jews from Mecca and Medina, (Jewish boys publicly inspected for pubic hair. if they had any, they were executed)
629: 1st Alexandria massacres, Egypt
622 – 634: Extermination of the 14 Arabian Jewish tribes.
1033: 1st Fez pogrom, Morocco
1148: Almohadin of Morocco gives Jews the choice of converting to Islam, or expulsion
1066: Granada massacre, Muslim occupied Spain
1106: Ali Ibn Yousef Ibn Tashifin of Marrakesh decrees death penalty for any Jew, including his Jewish Physician, and Military General.
1165 – 1178: Jews nationwide were given the choice (under new constitution) convert to Islam or die, Yemen
1165: Chief Rabbi of the Maghreb burnt alive. the Rambam flees for Egypt.
1220: 10s of thousands of Jews killed by Muslims after being blamed for Mongol invasion, Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Egypt
1270: Sultan Baybars of Egypt resolved to burn all the Jews, a ditch having been dug for that purpose; but at the last moment he repented, and instead exacted a heavy tribute, during the collection of which many perished.
1276: 2nd Fez pogrom, Morocco
1385: Khorasan massacres, Iran
1438: 1st Mellah Ghetto massacres, North Africa
1465: 3rd Fez pogrom, Morocco (11 Jews left alive)
1517: 1st Safed pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
1517: 1st Hebron pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
1517- Marsa ibn Ghazi massacre, Ottoman Libya
1577: Passover massacre, Ottoman empire
1588 – 1629: Mahalay pogroms, Iran
1630 – 1700: Yemenite Jews were considered “impure” and thus forbidden to touch a Muslim or a Muslim’s food. They were obliged to humble themselves before a Muslim, to walk to the left side, and greet him first.They could not build houses higher than a Muslim’s or ride a camel or horse, and when riding on a mule or a donkey, they had to sit sideways. Upon entering the Muslim quarter, a Jew had to take off his foot-gear and walk barefoot. If attacked with stones or fists by Islamic youth, a Jew was not allowed to defend himself.
1660: 2nd Safed pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
1670: Mawza expulsion Yemen
1679 – 1680: Sanaa massacres, Yemen
1747: Mashhad massacres Iran
1785: Tripoli pogrom, Ottoman Libya
1790 – 92: Tetouan pogrom. Morocco (Jews of Tetouan stripped naked, and lined up for mockery)
1800: new decree passed in Yemen, that Jews forbidden to wear new clothing, or good clothing. Jews forbidden to ride mules or donkeys, and were occasionally rounded up for long marches , naked through the Roob al Khali dessert.
1805: 1st Algiers pogrom, Ottoman Algeria
1808 2nd 1438: 1st Mellah Ghetto massacres, North Africa
1815: 2nd Algeris pogrom, Ottoman Algeria
1820: Sahalu Lobiant massacres, Ottoman Syria
1828: Baghdad pogrom, Ottoman Iraq
1830: 3rd Algiers pogrom, Ottoman Algeria
1830: Ethnic cleansing of Jews in Tabriz, Iran
1834: 2nd Hebron Pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
1834: Safed Pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
1844: 1st Cairo Massacres, Egypt
1847: Dayr al-Qamar Pogrom, Lebanon
1847: Ethnic cleansing of Jews from Jerusalem
1848: 1st Damascus Pogrom, Syria
1850: 1st Aleppo Pogrom, Syria
1860: 2nd Damascus Pogrom, Syria
1862: 1st Beirut Pogrom, Lebanon
 
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the 1834 Safed attacks by the druze is well known for the following: (ive taken this from wikipedia)

"Rabbi Joseph Schwartz noted the justice that once calm had been restored, Ibrahim Pasha's army arrested and executed a number of perpetrators, and enforced summary justice on many suspects to ensure stolen goods were returned:

The most respectable Mahomedans of Zafed and its environs were arrested as the authors of the outrage, and some of them were afterwards publicly executed, and whatever could be found of the stolen property of the Jews was restored. Every Jew was believed, when saying that he recognised this or that Arab among the robbers. The person so accused was instantly arrested, and punished with blows till he at last confessed and gave up his booty. Even many of the richest and most respectable of the Arabs were arrested, loaded with chains, and punished, upon the mere assertion of a very poor and common Jew. The word of a Jew was regarded as equal to the command of the highest authority, and severe punishment was at once resorted to, without any previous investigation, without any grounds or proofs. In this manner much of the stolen property was discovered; since many, in order not to be exposed to the violence of the Druses, delivered up everything of their own accord. The Jews were now required, by order of the Pacha, through the intervention of the consuls, to make out a correct list of all they had lost, of whatever they missed, and to indicate the true value of the same, and to hand it in to Abraim Pacha through means of the European consuls. [5]"
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Perhaps @Fearless would like a reciprocation for the looting of the palestinians property that is happening?
 
Superden said:
the 1834 Safed attacks by the druze is well known for the following: (ive taken this from wikipedia)

"Rabbi Joseph Schwartz noted the justice that once calm had been restored, Ibrahim Pasha's army arrested and executed a number of perpetrators, and enforced summary justice on many suspects to ensure stolen goods were returned:



Perhaps @Fearless would like a reciprocation for the looting of the palestinians property that is happening?
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That doesn't in any way undo that particular act in the first place, and I'm not saying that all tensions were not relieved by Muslim compassion. The point of the post was purely to repair IhabX7's absurd notion that everything was hunky dory before Zionism, settlements etc. was a thing.
 
Fearless said:
Here is the list of full massacres and ethnic cleansing and persecution done to Jews by Muslims before the birth of Zionism:

622 – 627: ethnic cleansing of Jews from Mecca and Medina, (Jewish boys publicly inspected for pubic hair. if they had any, they were executed)
629: 1st Alexandria massacres, Egypt
622 – 634: Extermination of the 14 Arabian Jewish tribes.
1033: 1st Fez pogrom, Morocco
1148: Almohadin of Morocco gives Jews the choice of converting to Islam, or expulsion
1066: Granada massacre, Muslim occupied Spain
1106: Ali Ibn Yousef Ibn Tashifin of Marrakesh decrees death penalty for any Jew, including his Jewish Physician, and Military General.
1165 – 1178: Jews nationwide were given the choice (under new constitution) convert to Islam or die, Yemen
1165: Chief Rabbi of the Maghreb burnt alive. the Rambam flees for Egypt.
1220: 10s of thousands of Jews killed by Muslims after being blamed for Mongol invasion, Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Egypt
1270: Sultan Baybars of Egypt resolved to burn all the Jews, a ditch having been dug for that purpose; but at the last moment he repented, and instead exacted a heavy tribute, during the collection of which many perished.
1276: 2nd Fez pogrom, Morocco
1385: Khorasan massacres, Iran
1438: 1st Mellah Ghetto massacres, North Africa
1465: 3rd Fez pogrom, Morocco (11 Jews left alive)
1517: 1st Safed pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
1517: 1st Hebron pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
1517- Marsa ibn Ghazi massacre, Ottoman Libya
1577: Passover massacre, Ottoman empire
1588 – 1629: Mahalay pogroms, Iran
1630 – 1700: Yemenite Jews were considered “impure” and thus forbidden to touch a Muslim or a Muslim’s food. They were obliged to humble themselves before a Muslim, to walk to the left side, and greet him first.They could not build houses higher than a Muslim’s or ride a camel or horse, and when riding on a mule or a donkey, they had to sit sideways. Upon entering the Muslim quarter, a Jew had to take off his foot-gear and walk barefoot. If attacked with stones or fists by Islamic youth, a Jew was not allowed to defend himself.
1660: 2nd Safed pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
1670: Mawza expulsion Yemen
1679 – 1680: Sanaa massacres, Yemen
1747: Mashhad massacres Iran
1785: Tripoli pogrom, Ottoman Libya
1790 – 92: Tetouan pogrom. Morocco (Jews of Tetouan stripped naked, and lined up for mockery)
1800: new decree passed in Yemen, that Jews forbidden to wear new clothing, or good clothing. Jews forbidden to ride mules or donkeys, and were occasionally rounded up for long marches , naked through the Roob al Khali dessert.
1805: 1st Algiers pogrom, Ottoman Algeria
1808 2nd 1438: 1st Mellah Ghetto massacres, North Africa
1815: 2nd Algeris pogrom, Ottoman Algeria
1820: Sahalu Lobiant massacres, Ottoman Syria
1828: Baghdad pogrom, Ottoman Iraq
1830: 3rd Algiers pogrom, Ottoman Algeria
1830: Ethnic cleansing of Jews in Tabriz, Iran
1834: 2nd Hebron Pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
1834: Safed Pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
1844: 1st Cairo Massacres, Egypt
1847: Dayr al-Qamar Pogrom, Lebanon
1847: Ethnic cleansing of Jews from Jerusalem
1848: 1st Damascus Pogrom, Syria
1850: 1st Aleppo Pogrom, Syria
1860: 2nd Damascus Pogrom, Syria
1862: 1st Beirut Pogrom, Lebanon
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You nicked this list from this website:

https://www.jewishrefugees.org.uk/2011/01/massacre-of-jews-by-muslims-before-1948.html

A list penned by a fella named Peter Baum who is in the news for this:


Board suspends Southend deputy over 'unacceptable' tweets
Peter Baum says it was for 'tweeting that the Palestinians are Nazis and calling Desmond Tutu a true black coward'

A racist and an idiot. Fits the Zionist Israeli profile.

So hardly an impartial or objective view of history…and in fact if we dive in a bit deeper you’ll realise how much misinformation there is.

(Eg The ‘1st Alexandria Massacres’ - do you realise that this was Christian Roman Egypt? When the Arabs came to the land, why do you think the Jewish tribes were so supportive of the takeover)?
 


Democracy at its best. “Do not investigate, we don’t want our criminal soldiers to get upset.”
 
Fearless said:
Here is the list of full massacres and ethnic cleansing and persecution done to Jews by Muslims before the birth of Zionism:

622 – 627: ethnic cleansing of Jews from Mecca and Medina, (Jewish boys publicly inspected for pubic hair. if they had any, they were executed)
629: 1st Alexandria massacres, Egypt
622 – 634: Extermination of the 14 Arabian Jewish tribes.
1033: 1st Fez pogrom, Morocco
1148: Almohadin of Morocco gives Jews the choice of converting to Islam, or expulsion
1066: Granada massacre, Muslim occupied Spain
1106: Ali Ibn Yousef Ibn Tashifin of Marrakesh decrees death penalty for any Jew, including his Jewish Physician, and Military General.
1165 – 1178: Jews nationwide were given the choice (under new constitution) convert to Islam or die, Yemen
1165: Chief Rabbi of the Maghreb burnt alive. the Rambam flees for Egypt.
1220: 10s of thousands of Jews killed by Muslims after being blamed for Mongol invasion, Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Egypt
1270: Sultan Baybars of Egypt resolved to burn all the Jews, a ditch having been dug for that purpose; but at the last moment he repented, and instead exacted a heavy tribute, during the collection of which many perished.
1276: 2nd Fez pogrom, Morocco
1385: Khorasan massacres, Iran
1438: 1st Mellah Ghetto massacres, North Africa
1465: 3rd Fez pogrom, Morocco (11 Jews left alive)
1517: 1st Safed pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
1517: 1st Hebron pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
1517- Marsa ibn Ghazi massacre, Ottoman Libya
1577: Passover massacre, Ottoman empire
1588 – 1629: Mahalay pogroms, Iran
1630 – 1700: Yemenite Jews were considered “impure” and thus forbidden to touch a Muslim or a Muslim’s food. They were obliged to humble themselves before a Muslim, to walk to the left side, and greet him first.They could not build houses higher than a Muslim’s or ride a camel or horse, and when riding on a mule or a donkey, they had to sit sideways. Upon entering the Muslim quarter, a Jew had to take off his foot-gear and walk barefoot. If attacked with stones or fists by Islamic youth, a Jew was not allowed to defend himself.
1660: 2nd Safed pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
1670: Mawza expulsion Yemen
1679 – 1680: Sanaa massacres, Yemen
1747: Mashhad massacres Iran
1785: Tripoli pogrom, Ottoman Libya
1790 – 92: Tetouan pogrom. Morocco (Jews of Tetouan stripped naked, and lined up for mockery)
1800: new decree passed in Yemen, that Jews forbidden to wear new clothing, or good clothing. Jews forbidden to ride mules or donkeys, and were occasionally rounded up for long marches , naked through the Roob al Khali dessert.
1805: 1st Algiers pogrom, Ottoman Algeria
1808 2nd 1438: 1st Mellah Ghetto massacres, North Africa
1815: 2nd Algeris pogrom, Ottoman Algeria
1820: Sahalu Lobiant massacres, Ottoman Syria
1828: Baghdad pogrom, Ottoman Iraq
1830: 3rd Algiers pogrom, Ottoman Algeria
1830: Ethnic cleansing of Jews in Tabriz, Iran
1834: 2nd Hebron Pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
1834: Safed Pogrom, Ottoman Palestine
1844: 1st Cairo Massacres, Egypt
1847: Dayr al-Qamar Pogrom, Lebanon
1847: Ethnic cleansing of Jews from Jerusalem
1848: 1st Damascus Pogrom, Syria
1850: 1st Aleppo Pogrom, Syria
1860: 2nd Damascus Pogrom, Syria
1862: 1st Beirut Pogrom, Lebanon
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Just to take the first example in your post. 622-627. You're talking if the Banu Qurayza incident. How was this ethnic cleansing?

This was incident where a treaty was signed with the BQ and they broke said treaty. Other Jewish tribes also had treaties and actively fought side by side with the Muslim (awz and khazraj). BQ were initially on this side too.

After their betrayal they didn't want Muhammad to be the "judge" for their punishment. Muhammad who had always been lenient to betrayal by Jewish tribes before, see Qunayka tribe.

Muhammad agreed to leave judgement up to their own, as in Jewish law and Jewish judgement. It was under Jewish law, that a member from the Awz tribe, judged them. It was under Jewish law that the punishment was administered.

You can also read about the BQ and Banu Nadeer transgressions and BQ being looked on favourably.

Also it's documented that the only ones held responsible were the fighting men. Not all the BQ. So not a genocide.

The battle itself was an attempt to kill Muslims off. So a genocide to be committed of Muslims.
 
and the apartheid land grab goes on:
UN experts alarmed by Israel High Court ruling on Masafer Yatta and risk of imminent forcible transfer of Palestinians | OHCHR

quote - “Following the judgement of the Israeli High Court of Justice earlier this month, around 1,200 Palestinian residents of Masafer Yatta, including 500 children, face imminent risks of forced evictions, arbitrary displacement and forcible transfer, in serious breach of international humanitarian and human rights laws,” said the experts.
 
There's absolutely no relevance in discussing incidents 1600 year's ago. Can't we at least stick to events in the last 100 years for crying out loud.
 
Roane said:
Just to take the first example in your post. 622-627. You're talking if the Banu Qurayza incident. How was this ethnic cleansing?

This was incident where a treaty was signed with the BQ and they broke said treaty. Other Jewish tribes also had treaties and actively fought side by side with the Muslim (awz and khazraj). BQ were initially on this side too.

After their betrayal they didn't want Muhammad to be the "judge" for their punishment. Muhammad who had always been lenient to betrayal by Jewish tribes before, see Qunayka tribe.

Muhammad agreed to leave judgement up to their own, as in Jewish law and Jewish judgement. It was under Jewish law, that a member from the Awz tribe, judged them. It was under Jewish law that the punishment was administered.

You can also read about the BQ and Banu Nadeer transgressions and BQ being looked on favourably.

Also it's documented that the only ones held responsible were the fighting men. Not all the BQ. So not a genocide.

The battle itself was an attempt to kill Muslims off. So a genocide to be committed of Muslims.
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That's too much to fit in a soundbite for fearless
 
Smores said:
There's absolutely no relevance in discussing incidents 1600 year's ago. Can't we at least stick to events in the last 100 years for crying out loud.
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I think 1881 is the most suitable place to start. It's good and important to have some understanding of things such as the condition of European and Middle Eastern/North African Jews, or political developments in the Ottoman Empire, before that date. But anyone making the case that something that happened before the First Aliyah is the root of the problem in Palestine is pushing an ideologically-driven agenda.
 
2cents said:
I think 1881 is the most suitable place to start. It's good and important to have some understanding of things such as the condition of European and Middle Eastern/North African Jews, or political developments in the Ottoman Empire, before that date. But anyone making the case that something that happened before the First Aliyah is the root of the problem in Palestine is pushing an ideologically-driven agenda.
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Don't get me wrong it's an interesting discussion in itself but it bares no relevance to the conduct of the Israeli government or Palestinians. It obfuscates a clear issue by throwing in something that can't be easily unpicked just to excuse actions or worse frame the struggles of a living human being in the context of people long dead.

I can't think of a single other current events discussion that would go back even 200 years for relevant context never mind events that predates the viking invasion of England.
 
Smores said:
Don't get me wrong it's an interesting discussion in itself but it bares no relevance to the conduct of the Israeli government or Palestinians. It obfuscates a clear issue by throwing in something that can't be easily unpicked just to excuse actions or worse frame the struggles of a living human being in the context of people long dead.

I can't think of a single other current events discussion that would go back even 200 years for relevant context never mind events that predates the viking invasion of England.
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Yeah largely agree. Although seems to me many discussions of current events in the Middle East in general go that way, when we’d mock anyone doing likewise for Western Europe.
 
Smores said:
Don't get me wrong it's an interesting discussion in itself but it bares no relevance to the conduct of the Israeli government or Palestinians. It obfuscates a clear issue by throwing in something that can't be easily unpicked just to excuse actions or worse frame the struggles of a living human being in the context of people long dead.

I can't think of a single other current events discussion that would go back even 200 years for relevant context never mind events that predates the viking invasion of England.
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That's exactly what makes this conflict unique. Two competing and almost mirror images of each other that are predicated on a purely religious grounds - quite literally. I'm afraid it's just lazy to believe that you can crop off it's history as, unlike many other scenarios, the Holy Land is a living breathing continuum of all thats come before. The same forces are at work today as they were yesterday, and a billion yesterdays before that.
 
Fearless said:
That's exactly what makes this conflict unique. Two competing and almost mirror images of each other that are predicated on a purely religious grounds - quite literally. I'm afraid it's just lazy to believe that you can crop off it's history as, unlike many other scenarios, the Holy Land is a living breathing continuum of all thats come before. The same forces are at work today as they were yesterday, and a billion yesterdays before that.
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Technically incorrect!
 
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