Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
- Thread starter esmufc07
- Start date
I find it quite strange how when Hamas say mainly civilians were killed it seems to be taken as gospel, but when Hamas say it was mainly Hamas members killed they may be lying.
Yep agreed. Especially when it comes to the Israeli - Palestinian conflict. It seems that the vast majority of people have chosen a side, and their side can do no wrong whilst the other side is always in the wrong.
The truth is, like with anything in life, somewhere in the middle. Whilst we will all naturally choose one of the sides, it’s also ok to understand and appreciate both sides.
On a side note, I have to say thanks to @2cents . I genuinely find your posts insightful and have learnt a lot from what you’ve posted here. It also comes across like you don’t have a particular side (not sure if this is the case), but just judge each situation on its merits.
People are ultimately going to focus on the bits that advance their own arguments on the issue.
An interesting post. But, for the sake of argument, lets run with your hypothesis. And then examine would could possibly invoke Jewish paranoia and reopen such historic wounds...
1941 - Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini meeting with Hitler to 'discuss' the Jewish problem in Palestine
2018 - Gaza Riots
Thanks. I think my views on the broader issues of the conflict are clear enough. On a specific episode like this I just want to understand what happened. It's usually best to wait 24 hours or more before drawing any hard conclusions.
Anyway, Israeli media are reporting this:
Egypt rebukes Hamas leader over deaths in Gaza border riots
Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh was summoned urgently to Cairo Monday, where Egyptian officials severely admonished him over the terrorist group's insistence on instigating violent demonstrations on the Israel-Gaza Strip border, Israel Hayom learned Tuesday.
In Monday's riots, which Hamas orchestrated over the opening of the U.S. Embassy in Jerusalem, some 40,000 Palestinian demonstrators clashed with Israeli security forces near the border fence. Fifty-eight people were killed and 2,700 people were wounded in the riots.
Israel has repeatedly warned Gazans against approaching the security fence, saying it will not tolerate attempts to breach the border.
A senior Egyptian official told Israel Hayom that Haniyeh was summoned to Egyptian intelligence service headquarters early Monday afternoon, as the violence was escalating, where General Intelligence Service head Maj. Gen. Abbas Kamel leveled scathing criticism at him over Hamas' "riot policy."
The official said Egyptian officials were stunned by the high number of casualties and angered by information provided by Israel that proved Hamas was paying civilians, including children, to place themselves in harm's way by approaching the fence and clashing with IDF soldiers so as to allow Hamas operatives to blend into the crowd and try to carry out terrorist attacks.
Egyptian intelligence officers had also learned that the other terrorist groups in Gaza were also critical of Hamas' provocations on the border, to the point of raising concerns that the enclave was on the brink of an internal confrontation that would plunge it into total chaos.
"Ismail Haniyeh and two bodyguards arrived in Cairo by helicopter within an hour of being summoned. But anyone who says Egyptian intelligence was honoring him by sending a helicopter to get him is wrong – they were furious with him," the senior official said.
"Kamel then kept Haniyeh waiting outside his office. It was humiliating. When Haniyeh was finally called in, you could hear him [Kamel] yelling. Haniyeh didn't dare answer back.
"Haniyeh was told, in no uncertain terms, that the blood of the dead was on his and [Hamas military leader Yahya] Sinwar's hands. They even showed him images of Hamas operatives paying teenagers to go die near the fence."
The official said that "Haniyeh was stunned" by the Egyptian rebuke. The official also said that Egyptian intelligence officers "made it clear to him [Haniyeh] that the Hamas leadership will be held responsible for any more deaths in border riots. They told him history won't forgive the Hamas leadership for such senseless deaths."
Haniyeh was also warned that if the group continues instigating border riots, Israel may restore its policy of targeted assassinations, and if that occurs, Egypt and other Arab nations trying to defuse the situation would suffice with declarative condemnations.
"Kamel demanded that Haniyeh order his people to cease the border riot campaign immediately. It was a very stern message," the official said.
It is believed that this meeting was what prompted Hamas to pull back some of its operatives from the border on Monday night. As a result, the Nakba Day demonstrations on the border on Tuesday, marking the "catastrophe" of Palestinian displacement during Israel's 1948 War of Independence, were far less violent than expected.
"Kamel's decision to step in and defuse the situation in Gaza followed messages from both Hamas and Israel," another senior Egyptian official said.
"Hamas had offered a hudna [temporary truce] but rejected any possibility of relinquishing its weapons, while Israel sent a stronger message, saying it will not allow Hamas to instigate violence and trigger an escalation that could destabilize the entire region, including Egypt."
http://www.israelhayom.com/2018/05/16/egypt-rebukes-hamas-leader-over-deaths-in-gaza-border-riots/
In Monday's riots, which Hamas orchestrated over the opening of the U.S. Embassy in Jerusalem, some 40,000 Palestinian demonstrators clashed with Israeli security forces near the border fence. Fifty-eight people were killed and 2,700 people were wounded in the riots.
Israel has repeatedly warned Gazans against approaching the security fence, saying it will not tolerate attempts to breach the border.
A senior Egyptian official told Israel Hayom that Haniyeh was summoned to Egyptian intelligence service headquarters early Monday afternoon, as the violence was escalating, where General Intelligence Service head Maj. Gen. Abbas Kamel leveled scathing criticism at him over Hamas' "riot policy."
The official said Egyptian officials were stunned by the high number of casualties and angered by information provided by Israel that proved Hamas was paying civilians, including children, to place themselves in harm's way by approaching the fence and clashing with IDF soldiers so as to allow Hamas operatives to blend into the crowd and try to carry out terrorist attacks.
Egyptian intelligence officers had also learned that the other terrorist groups in Gaza were also critical of Hamas' provocations on the border, to the point of raising concerns that the enclave was on the brink of an internal confrontation that would plunge it into total chaos.
"Ismail Haniyeh and two bodyguards arrived in Cairo by helicopter within an hour of being summoned. But anyone who says Egyptian intelligence was honoring him by sending a helicopter to get him is wrong – they were furious with him," the senior official said.
"Kamel then kept Haniyeh waiting outside his office. It was humiliating. When Haniyeh was finally called in, you could hear him [Kamel] yelling. Haniyeh didn't dare answer back.
"Haniyeh was told, in no uncertain terms, that the blood of the dead was on his and [Hamas military leader Yahya] Sinwar's hands. They even showed him images of Hamas operatives paying teenagers to go die near the fence."
The official said that "Haniyeh was stunned" by the Egyptian rebuke. The official also said that Egyptian intelligence officers "made it clear to him [Haniyeh] that the Hamas leadership will be held responsible for any more deaths in border riots. They told him history won't forgive the Hamas leadership for such senseless deaths."
Haniyeh was also warned that if the group continues instigating border riots, Israel may restore its policy of targeted assassinations, and if that occurs, Egypt and other Arab nations trying to defuse the situation would suffice with declarative condemnations.
"Kamel demanded that Haniyeh order his people to cease the border riot campaign immediately. It was a very stern message," the official said.
It is believed that this meeting was what prompted Hamas to pull back some of its operatives from the border on Monday night. As a result, the Nakba Day demonstrations on the border on Tuesday, marking the "catastrophe" of Palestinian displacement during Israel's 1948 War of Independence, were far less violent than expected.
"Kamel's decision to step in and defuse the situation in Gaza followed messages from both Hamas and Israel," another senior Egyptian official said.
"Hamas had offered a hudna [temporary truce] but rejected any possibility of relinquishing its weapons, while Israel sent a stronger message, saying it will not allow Hamas to instigate violence and trigger an escalation that could destabilize the entire region, including Egypt."
http://www.israelhayom.com/2018/05/16/egypt-rebukes-hamas-leader-over-deaths-in-gaza-border-riots/
Well, as things stand I believe that Israel, quite rationally, greatly prefers the status quo to any kind of realistic two-state solution. The costs of ending the occupation would dwarf the potential benefits for Israel. So there are two options. Increase the benefits for Israel of making peace or make the status quo far less appealing. The first one has been tried extensively without success. The second has been very successful in the past and consists of applying pressure. Pressure could come in the form of threats to withdraw US aid or similar (as Carter, Ford and Baker did), more extensive boycotts, sanctions and Palestinian resistance (the two intifadas). It has invariably been the application of this sort of pressure that has forced Israel to make significant concessions or compromises in the past.
Pressure could likewise be applied to the Palestinians as well, although the imbalance of power is so enormous that this would be less significant or necessary. Obviously it doesn't look like the Trump administration would be willing to apply this sort of pressure, but then again, neither were Obama, Bush Jr or Clinton prepared to. Until such a US leader takes power, that leaves the international community and more significantly the EU. Then there is the Palestinians themselves, but they always pay such a high price for any resistance that it is difficult for them to maintain it.
So to answer your question, the solution is the international consensus version of the two-state solution, supported by the vast majority of world states. It may be neither party's preference, but they can be forced to accept it.
Last edited by a moderator:
An interesting post. But, for the sake of argument, lets run with your hypothesis. And then examine would could possibly invoke Jewish paranoia and reopen such historic wounds...
1941 - Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini meeting with Hitler to 'discuss' the Jewish problem in Palestine
2018 - Gaza Riots
Thanks for this reply.
Israel Hayom? Really? "A senior Egyptian official"? All I've seen is people at the protests saying that they have nothing to lose and would rather risk their lives to protest than die slowly trapped in the hellhole that is Gaza.
I make no comment on the credibility of the report. Though it might be interesting to see if the protests do actually stop now - apparently Hamas have called the next one for June 5th to mark the start of the 6-day war.
Good post. The fact that Trump and his base are so closely tied to Israel - both on the right and center - means that he isn't likely to deviate from any sort of policy that will inconvenience Netanyahu. This likely means a lot more violence as we saw this week. There's a pretty stark difference when you compare this situation to North Korea in that the latter has four prominent political actors who want progress to be made, which is precisely what has happened in recent months. The Israeli - Palestinian conflict needs a similar group of political actors to push any progress through.
Here's Sinwar on the Egyptian involvement:
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east...-prevent-armed-conflict-with-israel-1.6095366
Sinwar mentioned Hamas' political leader Ismail Haniyeh's recent visit to Cairo, during which Egypt reiterated its commitment to the Palestinian struggle and right of return, according to Sinwar.
"The Egyptians have promised to open the Rafah Crossing to ease the blockade, but not as a cindition to stopping the marches - contrary to what was said in some media outlets," he said.
"The Egyptians have promised to open the Rafah Crossing to ease the blockade, but not as a cindition to stopping the marches - contrary to what was said in some media outlets," he said.
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east...-prevent-armed-conflict-with-israel-1.6095366
1. If you are saying Israel prefers the status quo at the present time, I would agree. But this was not always the case in the past.
2. Applying pressure through aid today wouldn't have the same impact as it would have under Carter, ectra. One, because U.S. aid to Israel is a military grant, most of which must be spent in the U.S. Two, the amount is miniscule. In contrast to the days of Carter, ectra, when Israel was in receipt of economic aid too, and her economy was nowhere near as strong or as big as it is today.
3. First the Palestinian political factions need to resolve their own internal differences. Second, we need to see a more pragmatic and less ideological Hamas.
Last edited:
You make no comment on the credibility but post it anyway, makes perfect sense
The climate change denying Pulitzer Prize Winning previous editor of The Jerusalem Post Bret Stephens.
Like it or not, what you have said is nothing less than the racism of low expectations. Holding Israel to universal liberal standards while simultaneously lowering those standards and aspirations for the Palestinians is nothing but a free pass to carry on with their behaviour.
Poor people are allowed to punch rich people but rich people can't punch them back.
In this case, the rich person is hiring body guards to kill the poor person for standing in the lawn.
Even if 100% of the protesters are known hamas you still need due process than to simply gun em down gangland style.
That's a fair point but I think it somewhat ignores the dynamics your opponents ascribe to the conflict. The main reason people expect more from Israelis is because the conflict's power differential is so vividly acute and the current conditions of the Palestinians viewed as largely determined by Israeli policy. Israel is seen as the hegemon and Palestinian transgressions somewhat excused as a consequence rather than a cause of Israeli actions.
Of course. Thats why Mozza, MJJ and the like don't like to talk about Palestinian massacres of Jews Pre Israel, the 1948 Arab War to destroy the Jews. Rinse and repeat for 67, 73. All the stuff that bears huge responsibility for the Palestinian conflict. Even MJJ was so phobic he was pleading for Hamas to be excluded from this thread!. Or me. The denial is obvious, and the revisionist attempts to isolate Israel as the bad guy for defending itself (and yes, we can argue about the methodologies) lead to me being called a bigot. It's absurd. And totally wreckless.
"pleading"
Fact of the matter is that Israel killing 60 people has nothing to do with hamas, why dont you go even further back and say israel is justified to kill palestines because of what hitler did.
And defending itself against what? A sore shoulder? They are seen as the bad guys because they killed 60 people in cold blood.
- Yes, the status quo was far less comfortable for Israel before the policing of the Palestinian population centers was outsourced to their PA subcontractor.
- I think the aid corresponds to about 20% of the Israeli defense budget, hardly minuscule. Anyway, aid is just one of many ways for the world’s most powerful country to apply pressure.
- Whenever Hamas and Fatah have attempted to reconcile or form a unity government, Israel has gone ballistic. The US has often pressured Abbas to exclude Hamas. So there’s that. It’s hard to argue that Hamas’ stance vis a vis Israel has not evolved over the years. As far back as 2008, former Mossad head Ephraim Levy stated that “The Hamas leadership has recognized that its ideological goal is not attainable and will not be in the foreseeable future. They are ready and willing to see the establishment of a Palestinian State in the temporary borders of 1967....They know that the moment a Palestinian State is established with their cooperation,...they will have to adopt a path that could lead them far from their original ideological goals.”
Yep Israel is just like any other country defending itself from unprovoked attacks. How many other countries commit war crimes against an occupied population on a daily basis? How many other countries confine them to tiny enclaves with no freedom of movement even within their own territory? How many countries incarcerate an occupied population en masse when they resist? Israel cannot claim self-defence when it is pursuing aggressive expansionist policies even during periods of calm.
Ignoring the origin and driver of the conflict. Again.
"pleading"
Fact of the matter is that Israel killing 60 people has nothing to do with hamas, why dont you go even further back and say israel is justified to kill palestines because of what hitler did.
And defending itself against what? A sore shoulder? They are seen as the bad guys because they killed 60 people in cold blood.
Ignoring the origin and driver of the conflict. Again.
How does it feel to use the same argument that hamas uses to fuel hatred against israel? You are the same as them, just on the opposite side of the coin. Justifying killing children for stuff that happened fifty years ago.
Another good article on the legalities of the operation:
Collectivizing Threat: An Analysis of Israel’s Legal Claims for Resort to Force on the Gaza Border
https://www.justsecurity.org/56346/...sraels-legal-claims-resort-force-gaza-border/
This is the third such article I've read this morning, added to the one from yesterday, and they're all coming to the same general conclusion - Israel's legal justification for the measures it has taken rest on, at best, a questionable categorization of the event and threat posed which appears to have been contrived retrospectively.
Collectivizing Threat: An Analysis of Israel’s Legal Claims for Resort to Force on the Gaza Border
https://www.justsecurity.org/56346/...sraels-legal-claims-resort-force-gaza-border/
This is the third such article I've read this morning, added to the one from yesterday, and they're all coming to the same general conclusion - Israel's legal justification for the measures it has taken rest on, at best, a questionable categorization of the event and threat posed which appears to have been contrived retrospectively.
Last edited:
I'm not the same.
I don't want to see Muslims die. They do.
I don't want to see Jews die. They do.
You are, they use israel invading the land as justification for killing israelis. You use the events after as justification for killing palestines.
There is literally no difference between you two.
No. Because it's exactly the same Jew hate that still drives todays outcomes. It's not about land. It's about Jews on that land.
1. Let me get this straight. Are you claiming that the riots of 1920, 1921 and 1929 are the “origin and driver of the conflict”? Is that what you’re saying?
2. Defending itself?
Yeah and Black South Africans and Native Americans just hated whites. It wasn’t about land.
Like I said you are exactly the same as them, just on the opposite side. You have gone from blaming hamas to riots after independence to antisemitism to justify killing and injuring approximately 2800 people over a sore shoulder.
Palestinians are told to stop terrorism and March for their rights, when they do 60 are murdered by Israel. I think yer man has got it wrong