The translation on the video excerpt is "In the last round of confrontations, if 62 people were martyred, 50 of them were Hamas." The word "if" seems strange here. Does that mean that if 124 people were shot, 100 of them would be Hamas? Is the bloke referring to actual Hamas operatives or making some sort of boastful claim about the gigantic support Hamas enjoys among the Gazan population?
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The translation on the video excerpt is "In the last round of confrontations, if 62 people were martyred, 50 of them were Hamas." The word "if" seems strange here. Does that mean that if 124 people were shot, 100 of them would be Hamas? Is the bloke referring to actual Hamas operatives or making some sort of boastful claim about the gigantic support Hamas enjoys among the Gazan population?
Slightly longer clip here
His main point in response to a question of whether Hames is "reaping the fruits" of all of this is to question how Hamas could be beneficiaries of 50 of its own people dying.
Same issue with that not sure about the authenticity of the source, would much prefer somebody like BBC.
Logically, Hamas would be keen to declare all dead people as Hamas members as it would boost it's image and will also drive desperate people to believe that they are the only outlet. Wouldn't they? Unless Israel has some Marvel universe worthy device that would identify hostile targets amidst a feck ton of Palestine people?
Israel did open fire on a peaceful crowd
I'm extremely polyglotish when dealing with subtitled videos.
Edit. Never did pick up Dari or Pashto though.
According to reports on these protests, the main body of the protesters has generally held well back from the fence, while more determined people have headed towards it with the aim of breaching it. Presumably these are the protesters who have been killed (for the most part), and it would be no surprise at all to learn that the majority of them were Hamas or PIJ members. Still I do think there's a chance this guy may be boasting a bit for the benefit of his Palestinian audience.
What a waste of human life
Have you worked out why people are mentioning members of the legitametly elected Palestinian governing authority in Gaza as if it’s some sort of argument that Israeli soldiers murdering people at will is justified?
What about the multiple journalists who were wearing The “Press” highlighted word jackets that were killed by the snipers?
Hamas.
I'm sure that I saw reports that a large portion of the people shot never approached the fence.
I've seen a few reports that have claimed people were shot in the space between the fence and the main body of protesters. This article gives a good sense of the size of that space. Haven't seen anything to suggest that the Israelis were just randomly firing into the main crowd.
This article from a few weeks back is also worth a read:
Plan to Storm Fence Gets Bloody Preview in Gaza
They shot at members of the press clearly labeled press and you still don't believe Israel would fire without reason?
So being in the area between the main crowd and fence makes you a legitimate target?
There was a video I was watching recently on this subject and within it they were interviewing Israeli members of the public and honestly I was shocked at the responses and how little respect they have for Palestinian life. I don’t think I’ve ever seen as ignorant hateful people ever. Their responses were just so downplayed by themselves. Some guy mentioned carpet bombing them all like he was suggesting just going out for a drink.
I’m actually not even sure “hateful” is the right word as they just didn’t seem to care it was treated like they are just some pest. It’s just scary.
Interesting. Any other examples you can cite in this regard ?
Wouldn’t the fact that they suffered such atrocities humanise how they perceive the palenstinians and their plight.
This is a really great channel feauturing hundreds of interviews with Israelis and Palestinians on every topic under the sun:
The guy is a Canadian-Israeli with a slightly irritating voice. Anyone can send him a question to ask and he'll go out and ask it.
Just the Irish map then
So they will shoot at the press with no reason but not the crowd?
You seem to think the always have a legitimate target
Scant evidence of that
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True, it wouldn't be the first time Hamas exaggerated its involvement.
I would also add, when he says they were Hamas, does he mean they are Hamas fighters? Supporters? Does it really matter? By all accounts they were unarmed. Which would arguably make such a person a civilian anyway.
Which Israel and the US are absolutely delighted about. Democracy promotion
I do see your point of learned behaviour and how it could be passed down through generations and this is now why there is such hate. However you would think these people aren’t denied education so at some point you would hope they develop a moral compass of what is wrong and what is right.
Surely someone would realise a T shirt of a pregnant lady within a set of cross hairs with the banner of 1 bullet 2 kills is in bad taste and past the point of sometjing you would expect any human morality and more akin of someone with severe psychotic issues. Learned behaviour or not at some point surely.
Sorry it just blows my mind that anyone no matter race, religion whatever could have so much disregard for human life, it actually frightens me and just makes me a little sad.
Here's a longer version of the video, seems clear enough assuming the the translation is accurate:
I think this article I posted earlier does a good job explaining the various legal ramifications of the Israeli response - https://forward.com/opinion/398307/is-israel-justified-in-shooting-protestors-on-gaza-border/
My feeling is that the Israelis will find it hard to justify the use of live fire even on those protesters actively attempting to dismantle the fence. On the other hand, if it was proven that most of them were acting on the orders of, say, Hamas, then they might have a case for being able to classify the entire episode as a military operation rather than a law enforcement issue, but it still seems doubtful to me. I find it hard to believe that live fire is the only means available to them to prevent breaches, I've yet to see an Israeli explanation for why alternative, non-lethal means are ineffective.
Which Israel and the US are absolutely delighted about. Democracy promotion
What's your prescription for a realistic resolution to all of this ? And by realistic, I mean one that all political actors can buy into ?
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I feel this provides useful insight into the issue
Live fire should only be used as a last resort if a soldier feels his life is in danger. There are loads of videos of Palestinians being shot when there was zero threat to any soldiers. Palestinians running away from the fence, journalists, some 15 year old kid playing with a toy, some guy just videoing himself. Didn't you see the video with the snipers whooping with glee after shooting some guy? The mentality of these soldiers is really sick.
Assuming that claim is factual, would that still have retrospectively justified the response? How were Israel to know who amongst the crowd were members of Hamas? Because it sounded like through their own admission that anyone who approached the fence would have been indiscriminately dealt with. The alarming factor here is that the security forces were so willing to resort to lethal means to gun down any man, woman, child irrespective of any possible affiliations which they or may not have possessed.
IIRC, one famous example of this phenomenon cited in anthropology classes is the Hutu and Tutsi of Rwanda.
Another short term example is the Russian Orthodox church.
US Puritans another example from one angle (oppressed in Europe, then oppress the Natives)
A long term example would be Christianity in general from oppressed under the Romans to oppressing via Inquisition.
Simply having a world government where power is evenly distributed would solve most of the things you cite. The current system is incredibly unbalanced where power is coagulated at the very top among a small amount of states. They get to set the agenda and influence what happens across most of the world.
Legally speaking, I think it depends. Hamas leaders have been very vocal throughout the last few weeks about their intent to storm the fence. Does that justify an assumption on the Israelis' part that anyone who left the main protest to approach the fence was Hamas/PIJ? I'm not sure but I doubt it. Then there's the separate issue of the use of live fire when alternative means may have sufficed.
Morally speaking, I think if Israel could have prevented these men from breaching the fence without killing them, then they should have. But I'm not going to worry too much about the Hamas/PIJ members killed, sad as it is that anyone need die in this conflict. They'll have understood exactly the likely ending for them here. The bigger problem is the killing of some apparent civilians scattered around the zone just back from the fence. If those cases are confirmed then Israel has questions that need answering.
Just watching that video again, the guy starts off a bit defensive it seems, as if he's answering the accusation that Hamas have sent innocents to die at the fence by claiming they're Hamas members. Another possible reason for him to exaggerate maybe.
I'm speaking with reference to the article I posted just above. I'm no legal expert on any of this.
No thanks I just ate
As Israel has decided that borders are sacred and any attempt to breach is punishable by death, every West Bank settler is a legitimate target for Palestinians