Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Chairman Woodie said:
How about showing a willingness to engage in talks and refrain from violence and aspirations to rewrite perceived past injustices by turning the clock back to 1947. If I think Hamas are prepared to engage in direct/indirect talks, I would encourage Israel to do the same.
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Hamas haven't attacked Israel in a serious way in years, and yet no peace talks from Israel. Face it, the lack of progress had nothing to do with Hamas
 
Chairman Woodie said:
No. At least not without a pragmatic Hamas making sacrifices too. Israel withdrawing from the West Bank with only the agreement of the PA could cause major problems. The internal Palestinian differences and a weak Palestinian Authority could leave the West Bank open to a Hamas coup. A Hamas coup could pose a security headache for Israel.
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Lol, you actually think Israel will ever leave the West Bank as part of a peace deal. How naive can a person be?
 
Achilles McCool said:
Serious question. What did the IDF do wrong?
* At the beginning of this thread, numerous posters see claiming snipers massacred 50-60 innocent Palestinians.

* By the middle of the thread, a few were admitting that some Hamas operatives were mingling with the protestors.

* by now we realize that most casualties were either Hamas soldiers or members os other violent groups looking to cause destruction during Nabka. One such other group is the Fatah’s Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, which suffered casualties against the IDF

Looking at the complete death toll, and excluding the 8 month old child, (because that’s on another level of fecked up altogether—looks like the child was already seriously sick/wounded, so the family brought the frail child to the protest to add their child.s death to the martyr list. Disgusting!) but if we pay attention to the list of deaths so far, I’m not seeing these “innocents” that others were weeping about earlier in the thread.

One dead innocent is terrible and the world should do everything it can to prevent innocent lives being ended. But from what I can tell, the IDF snipers did their job and protected other innocents, ie women and children inside the border fence.

Nope. IDF vs. Hamas and the Martyrs Brigade











Last, but not least; a quote countering the claims made by various Caf posters that the ppfotesters we’d completely innocent and the IDF are cowards for using high powered rounds on civilians:


Maybe this is why myself and a few others waited for the facts before screaming about the situation and the despicable natural of “David vs. Goliath”:wenger:
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You believe what the IDF says?
 
Raoul said:
We're not going to have threads where everyone always agrees with one another. If the content of a thread offends you or anyone else then use the ignore feature or the new "ignore thread" feature.
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It helps that he has the same indifference when it comes to Muslim lives as you
 
Fearless said:
Do you even know who he is?
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Yousef was speaking on behalf of UN Watch, a watchdog group that monitors the United Nations for supposed anti-Israel biases. He left Hamas in the 1990s to work for the Shin Bet, Israel's internal security agency, and has since moved to the United State
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Somebody who is as biased as you, if not more?
 
User 72192 said:
it's not that hard to find that out tbh :lol: what are you even implying? That the words of a renegade should really convince us? Get yourself checked.
Using a defector to monitor biases for sure is a great idea, might as well let Ben Netanjahu monitor these things. Just to think that you might actually be serious really baffles me. Delusional, ignorant and without heart for fellow humans. People like you, who just think in different religions, nations and fail to see beyond these show how far away we are from a truly civilzed world.
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One beheading away from User 72192's Utopia.
 
berbatrick said:
I just simultaneously saw 3 articles about the same thing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...l-helped-create-hamas/?utm_term=.20051907b3ed

More detailed articles here and here.

A lot of parallels with India's actions in our many domestic conflicts.
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Two of those are behind a pay wall.

This one though should be required reading though.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020614100632/http://www.middleeastwire.com:8080/storypage.jsp?id=10540

Reading it from 2002 really emphasizes how far we have fallen. I remember back in 1990s everyone I know thought peace between Israel and Palestine was inevitably going to happen and the bloody obvious two state solution that all reasonable, rationale people found acceptable (the secular PLO and Israel Labour). Then enter the fecking extremists - Likud and Hamas.

Beginning with the 1977 election of Likud founder Menachem Begin as prime minister, Israel nurtured the rise of the Islamic movement among the Palestinians, first in the Gaza Strip and to a limited degree in the West Bank.

Desperate to prevent Arafat’s return under any peace accord and seeking to undermine his popularity in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, a year later Israel allowed a 42-year old quadriplegic religious leader, Sheik Ahmad Yassin, to license his humanitarian organization, later called Hamas.

Hamas moved from “armed struggle” against Israeli military targets to the more extreme violence in 1994 after a Likud-inspired supporter and settler fanatic, Baruch Goldstein, walked past Israeli guards into the Hebron Mosque and gunned down 29 Muslims as they were praying. Goldstein took a page out of the Likud ideology and hoped the massacre would derail the peace process with Arafat. In retaliation in April 1994, a Hamas bomber rammed an explosive laden car into a civilian bus in the Israeli city of Afula, killing eight and wounding 50 people. Less than one year later, another Likud settler fanatic inspired by Likud rhetoric and policies assassinated Rabin. The murder undermined the Labor Party’s future and sabotaged the Israeli-Palestinian peace process pushing all sides back to violence.

Rabin’s widow, Leah Rabin, directly placed the blame for her husband’s assassination on the Likud party and its anti-peace rhetoric. Leah Rabin declared that the assassin was incited to violence by the vicious language of Likud’s silver-tongued leader, Benjamin Netanyahu.

Politically, Hamas and Israel’s Likud Bloc share several common goals, each for different reasons. They both oppose the Land-for-Peace formula and object to the creation of an independent Palestinian State. Hamas seeks to establish an Islamic State in Palestine while the Likud seeks the formal expansion of Israel into the occupied West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem. Likud seeks to annex the territories providing the Palestinians with administrative autonomy but not independence or sovereignty.

In contrast, the PLO and the Labor Party also share several goals and oppose the policies of Likud and Hamas. Both accepted in formal written agreements in September 1993 at the White House a peace accord that recognized Israel’s right to exist and the Palestinian right to statehood. While Likud and Labor battle over ideology and politics, Hamas differs with the PLO on issues of religion and it rejects compromise.
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Reading this really hit home with me how much things have degenerated.
And reading this thread is depressing because despite so many reasonable people the debate still distills into a Israel vs. Palestinians. It shouldn't be Israelis vs Palestine. It should be all the reasonable people of the world vs. Likud AND Hamas. Both are poison. The reality is there are reasonable, wonderful people on both sides. But those people have been marginalized and aggressively neutered by machiavellian, unreasonable and greedy policies of both Likud and Hamas.

Its a shame the world can't get together and condemn BOTH Likud and Hamas for both their scandalous and inhumane actions and policies. Sadly both Hamas and Likud have violently limited the reasonable people of their own populations. Its time for the reasonable people of the world to stop taking sides of Israel vs. Palestine and start condemning both inhumane groups - Likud and Hamas
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Two of those are behind a pay wall.

This one though should be required reading though.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020614100632/http://www.middleeastwire.com:8080/storypage.jsp?id=10540

Reading it from 2002 really emphasizes how far we have fallen. I remember back in 1990s everyone I know thought peace between Israel and Palestine was inevitably going to happen and the bloody obvious two state solution that all reasonable, rationale people found acceptable (the secular PLO and Israel Labour). Then enter the fecking extremists - Likud and Hamas.



Reading this really hit home with me how much things have degenerated.
And reading this thread is depressing because despite so many reasonable people the debate still distills into a Israel vs. Palestinians. It shouldn't be Israelis vs Palestine. It should be all the reasonable people of the world vs. Likud AND Hamas. Both are poison. The reality is there are reasonable, wonderful people on both sides. But those people have been marginalized and aggressively neutered by machiavellian, unreasonable and greedy policies of both Likud and Hamas.

Its a shame the world can't get together and condemn BOTH Likud and Hamas for both their scandalous and inhumane actions and policies. Sadly both Hamas and Likud have violently limited the reasonable people of their own populations. Its time for the reasonable people of the world to stop taking sides of Israel vs. Palestine and start condemning both inhumane groups - Likud and Hamas
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Neither Baruch Goldstein or Yigal Amir (killer of Rabin) had anything to do with Likud.
 
Raoul said:
Do we need a separate Israel-Hamas thread ?
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Not sure how effective it will be. Few posters want this thread as an isolated incident and just for posting comments condemning Israeli forces and a few want to include the historical arguments. The first group may never agree that Hamas is vile and the second group may never condemn Israel. I haven't seen one person on this message board who is open to other ideas and to change his view if he was in the wrong (maybe except @Olly)
 
fishfingers15 said:
Not sure how effective it will be. Few posters want this thread as an isolated incident and just for posting comments condemning Israeli forces and a few want to include the historical arguments. The first group may never agree that Hamas is vile and the second group may never condemn Israel. I haven't seen one person on this message board who is open to other ideas and to change his view if he was in the wrong (maybe except @Olly)
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Its been like this for much of the past decade or more. Both sides are generally entrenched in their views.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Not sure how effective it will be. Few posters want this thread as an isolated incident and just for posting comments condemning Israeli forces and a few want to include the historical arguments. The first group may never agree that Hamas is vile and the second group may never condemn Israel. I haven't seen one person on this message board who is open to other ideas and to change his view if he was in the wrong (maybe except @Olly)
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Hey, I believe most of us in the first group will certainly agree that hamas is vile but that does not excuse Israel response or killing of innocents.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Not sure how effective it will be. Few posters want this thread as an isolated incident and just for posting comments condemning Israeli forces and a few want to include the historical arguments. The first group may never agree that Hamas is vile and the second group may never condemn Israel. I haven't seen one person on this message board who is open to other ideas and to change his view if he was in the wrong (maybe except @Olly)
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The is the third option though. That Hamas is vile and Israel went over the top with their response and should be condemned for it.
 
MJJ said:
Hey, I believe most of us in the first group will certainly agree that hamas is vile but that does not excuse Israel response or killing of innocents.
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Watch the other group say vice versa and totally not mean it. It's like you were needling Fearless much of this thread to show one post where he condemned the killing and he asking you to condemn Hamas at least once in this thread. I'm not complaining as you should post what you want, I just think solving this issue is as complicated as solving the Israel - Palestinian conflict.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Watch the other group say vice versa and totally not mean it. It's like you were needling Fearless much of this thread to show one post where he condemned the killing and he asking you to condemn Hamas at least once in this thread. I'm not complaining as you should post what you want, I just think solving this issue is as complicated as solving the Israel - Palestinian conflict.
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The only reason I was needling him was him saying that he has stated he isnt okay with the killings without actually stating that. I have no problem condemning hamas or any other terrorist group for that matter which is why I disagree with bringing hamas into this particular conflict.
 
2cents said:
Neither Baruch Goldstein or Yigal Amir (killer of Rabin) had anything to do with Likud.
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Netanyahu legitimized and empowered the incitement that led to the assassination with extremist rhetoric. All of the radical moves of Likud helped create the situation with the ones pushing the extremist settlers movement for over a decade.

According to Rabin-era insider Itamar Rabinovich, who has just recently published “Yitzhak Rabin: Soldier, Leader, Statesman,” the rapid post-assassination political transformation that took place in Israel, spearheaded by current Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, ensured that the necessary soul-searching of the Israeli public never actually took place — or was hijacked by a right-wing Knesset.

“The [Labor] government from this time was wrong in not prosecuting the inciters [of hatred],” says Rabinovich. “The policy was to try and build a big tent in Israeli politics, and bring everyone in, and not to go after those who had incited the hatred. The result is that 20 years later, the radical right that opposed Rabin’s policies is now in government, and they dictate national policy.”

In 1976, Rabinovich recalls, Rabin had expressed his contempt for the hardcore settlers political movement. In an off-the-record interview, he called it a “cancerous entity” in Israeli politics, and also referred to it as “one of the gravest threats to the State of Israel.”

‘Rabin was worried as a political statesman about a messianic movement operating in the West Bank and in Gaza’

Rabin’s disdain was two-fold, Rabinovich explains when this topic comes up in conversation.

“Firstly, Rabin was worried as a political statesman about a messianic movement operating in the West Bank and in Gaza. And particularly of its influence percolating across the Green Line into Israeli brackets. In [retrospect] this seems amply justified, given today’s current developments with regards to this subject.”

Secondly, says Rabinovich, “Rabin believed there should be a territorial compromise over the West Bank — preferably with Jordan.”

...

In his book, Rabinovich also recalls an incident in March 1994, near the town of Ra’anana, north of Tel Aviv, where a protest march was organized by extremist Kahane Chai. The hard-line Israeli militant group advocates for the expulsion of Arabs from the biblical Land of Israel. Netanyahu was seen in front of the Kahane Chai protest; behind him, a coffin was carried inscribed with the words, “Rabin is causing the death of Zionism.” (In the book, Rabinovich translates the coffin’s inscription as “Zionism’s Murderer.”)

Then on October 5, 1995, the day of the Knesset vote on Oslo II, Likud’s leadership organized a mass 100,000-strong rally in Jerusalem’s Zion Square. The rally turned into a mob scene and the crowd chanted, “death to Rabin,” says Rabinovich. By failing to rein in the crowd, he asserts, Netanyahu in no uncertain terms endorsed their ecstatic, violent, messianic euphoria.

‘Netanyahu’s incitement at the time crossed the line’

“Netanyahu’s incitement at the time crossed the line,” says Rabinovich. “If you want to make comparisons to today, imagine, for example, the center-left in Israel staging demonstrations calling Netanyahu a traitor, [holding] a casket and so on.”

“Netanyahu stood on the balcony in Jerusalem at the time in that infamous demonstration when others, like David Levy, walked away. Because they couldn’t stand the crowd. Netanyahu, however, stayed,” adds Rabinovich.
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Netanyahu legitimized the violent radicals of Israel in much the same way Trump is trying to legitimized the radical white nationalists currently.
What the radical right of Israel did to Rabin, who should have been considered a national hero above all reproach was disgusting and foreshadows the modern alt-right in Europe and America.

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https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-lambasted-for-incitement-in-insiders-rabin-biography/
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Netanyahu legitimized and empowered the incitement that led to the assassination with extremist rhetoric. All of the radical moves of Likud helped create the situation with the ones pushing the extremist settlers movement for over a decade.



Netanyahu legitimized the violent radicals of Israel in much the same way Trump is trying to legitimized the radical white nationalists currently.
What the radical right of Israel did to Rabin, who should have been considered a national hero above all reproach was disgusting and foreshadows the modern alt-right in Europe and America.

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https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-lambasted-for-incitement-in-insiders-rabin-biography/
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That is quite a different thing to describing Goldstein and Amir as Likud supporters or Likud-inspired.
 
2cents said:
That is quite a different thing to describing Goldstein and Amir as Likud supporters or Likud-inspired.
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Likud legitimized the radicals, Netanyahu in particular. Plus there is all the other documented facts of how Likud created and funded Hamas to disrupt the peace process and how their support currently derives from just as unreasonable people as Hamas.

The problem lies in BOTH the radicals of Israel and Palestine. BOTH are responsible for the current situation. BOTH are equally responsible for the deaths of innocents. BOTH commit and endorse atrocities that should be condemned by all reasonable people. Netanyahu IS a poisonous extremist that is proving Rabin's point from 1976. Netanyahu absolutely is partially to blame for Rabin's assassination given his position of power and legitimacy and how he legitimized and tacitly endorsed the most violent, radical policies and groups in Israel for decades.

Its pretty easy to imagine a far more peaceful, calm and reasonable Israel if it was the radical, unreasonable and violent Netayahoo who was assassinated instead of the rational and reasonable Rabin.
 
syrian_scholes said:
While I feel good I've ignored him, I will not forget how he heartlessly said Germany is inviting those anti-semites about the Syrian refugees, many of which are children who don't even know what anti-semite means, I want to clarify a point about the Syrian refugees, the Syrian people don't like living outside their country, I love the US, I love how welcoming and kind the people are there, but when I'm there and in about 2 weeks I start getting homesick, those refugees were exiled and had to leave everything behind, it was not a choice, I will not forget that RC allowed such comment as well with all the love and respect to this site, this isn't freedom of speech, this is plain racism while saying hurtful stuff, that is all.
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Freedom f speech is only reserved for non-Muslims and gods “chosen people” did you not realise yet?

Ironically the actual semites are the Arabs
 
shamans said:
Really? It is good to hear justification of killing teens and children by "why were they there"? It is good to hear "what do you want them to do, throw rocks back"? It is good to hear such an approach and mindset of killing people? They are talking about the Palestinians as some sub human pests and you think it is good to hear this.
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I meant more generally but yeah I would like to hear the attempted justifications in any such case.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Likud legitimized the radicals, Netanyahu in particular. Plus there is all the other documented facts of how Likud created and funded Hamas to disrupt the peace process and how their support currently derives from just as unreasonable people as Hamas.

The problem lies in BOTH the radicals of Israel and Palestine. BOTH are responsible for the current situation. BOTH commit and endorse atrocities that should be condemned by all reasonable people. Netanyahu IS a poisonous extremist that is proving Rabin's point from 1976. Netanyahu absolutely is partially to blame for Rabin's assassination given his position of power and legitimacy and how he legitimized and tacitly endorsed the most violent, radical policies and groups in Israel for decades.

Its pretty easy to imagine a far more peaceful, calm and reasonable Israel if it was the radical, unreasonable and violent Netayahoo who was assassinated instead of the rational and reasonable Rabin.
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My basic, limited point was that Goldstein and Amir had nothing to do with Likud - they were inspired by the outlawed Kach (who I'd regard as a more appropriate movement to compare to Hamas than the Likud) and the teaching of Meir Kahane. Sure, Likud rhetoric may have helped enflame the atmosphere in the mid-90s, I'm perfectly willing to accept that. And I'd agree that the Likud's approach to the conflict reflects part of the broader problems preventing its resolution. But there's no evidence to show that the two murderers had any links or involvement with the Likud which, after all, is/was a mainstream Israeli political party which they would have abhorred.
 
Chairman Woodie said:
You need to do some serious reading on Israel if you think the Israelis are committing genocide. Or perhaps you just don't fully what genocide entails.
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Genocide is intentional action to destroy a people (usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group) in whole or in part.
 
When you are actually on the fence, this thread is fascinating. You basically can't imagine leaving the aforementioned fence..
 
2cents said:
My basic, limited point was that Goldstein and Amir had nothing to do with Likud - they were inspired by the outlawed Kach (who I'd regard as a more appropriate movement to compare to Hamas than the Likud) and the teaching of Meir Kahane. Sure, Likud rhetoric may have helped enflame the atmosphere in the mid-90s, I'm perfectly willing to accept that. And I'd agree that the Likud's approach to the conflict reflects part of the broader problems preventing its resolution. But there's no evidence to show that the two murderers had any links or involvement with the Likud which, after all, is/was a mainstream Israeli political party which they would have abhorred.
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Hamas moved from “armed struggle” against Israeli military targets to the more extreme violence in 1994 after a Likud-inspired supporter and settler fanatic, Baruch Goldstein, walked past Israeli guards into the Hebron Mosque and gunned down 29 Muslims as they were praying. Goldstein took a page out of the Likud ideology and hoped the massacre would derail the peace process with Arafat. In retaliation in April 1994, a Hamas bomber rammed an explosive laden car into a civilian bus in the Israeli city of Afula, killing eight and wounding 50 people. Less than one year later, another Likud settler fanatic inspired by Likud rhetoric and policies assassinated Rabin. The murder undermined the Labor Party’s future and sabotaged the Israeli-Palestinian peace process pushing all sides back to violence.
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Based on the example listed by Rabinovich of Netanyahu at the death to Rabin rally as a power leader of Likudn legitimizing the entire radicals, the article's phrasing sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Plus my overall point could not be more clear - the problem is the radicals of both Palestine and Israel which Hamas and Likud both represent their respective legitimized power structures in the past 20 years. Likud's hardcore support of the extremist settler movement is a massive part of the problem along with plenty of their policies and rhetoric from individual members.

Both the radicals of Israel and Palestine are responsible for this and other atrocities.
Both Likud and Hamas are detrimental groups to a peaceful middle east.
Both Israel and Palestine suffer from their radical, sociopathic wings gaining control of their states.

People playing the blame game constantly of "oh no but Palestinians are a little worse than Israelis" -"no, the Israelis are a little worse than the Palestinians" are also part of the problem.
The world needs to start condemning both the violent radicals of Israel and the violent radicals of Palestine.
 
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