Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[shamans]

I wonder if Raoul has ever banned/punished anyone on the caf for misbehaving towards another member or he normally asks them to negotiate something they're both happy with so we can have peace on the caf.

Or more appropriately, assume an admin here bans someone unjustly and then we have to them "negotiate" between each other rather than escalate to a more senior admin.

It's just another way of controlling public sentiment.

 

[Raoul]

I wonder if Raoul has ever banned/punished anyone on the caf for misbehaving towards another member or he normally asks them to negotiate something they're both happy with so we can have peace on the caf.

Not the best comparison given that users agree to terms of service when they sign up and can be removed.

 

[Raoul]

Why must we argue what is viable and not what is right? That's not how I live my life and not how most people do.

Regardless, my whole point is you are asking for a victim and an oppressor to "negotiate" between themselves. Same as Russia and Ukraine, Russia holds all the cards with military might and power. Why on earth would the world let them "negotiate" with ukraine?

Because right and wrong are subjective based on who you ask, and when you interject an unbalanced power dynamic into the equation (Israelis hold all the power) then like in a vast majority of conflicts, the only way out is through a negotiated settlement involving some concessions. There is a pretty good plan that has been written by a mix of Israelis and Palestinians that if people would spend less time insisting negotiations are bad, may actually offer an appropriate path forward.

https://www.monmouth.edu/news/docum...tator-for-the-two-state-solution-english.pdf/

 

[maniak]

Not the best comparison given that users agree to terms of service when they sign up and can be removed.

I think it's the best comparison to show how nonsensical your "they need to negotiate" stance in this thread. The UN doesn't allow apartheid either, Israel is a member and doesn't care. Perhaps a UN mod should ban them.

 

[Raoul]

I think it's the best comparison to show how nonsensical your "they need to negotiate" stance in this thread. The UN doesn't allow apartheid either, Israel is a member and doesn't care. Perhaps a UN mod should ban them.

Except there's no such thing as a UN mod. The UN is generally feckless on most issues and all prominent international organizations are little more than ways for larger member states to advance their agendas by making them appear as though an international body is advancing it. This is why most international organizations and concepts like international law are set up to only benefit the powerful states who comprise and fund the organization. There is no such thing as global democracy or enforceable international law.

 

[maniak]

Except there's no such thing as a UN mod. The UN is generally feckless on most issues and all prominent international organizations are little more than ways for larger member states to advance their agendas by making them appear as though an international body is advancing it. This is why most international organizations and concepts like international law are set up to only benefit the powerful states who comprise and fund the organization. There is no such thing as global democracy or enforceable international law.

Bingo! So what motivation does Israel have to negotiate when they can do whatever they want without any consequences? They can bully, make lives miserable, kill, imprison, create an apartheid state and nothing happens. Why on earth would they negotiate? They're doing what they want without consequences, so suggestion negotiations are the way to go is basically saying you want things to stay the same.

Change only happens when the aggressor is forced to stop. By public pressure, economic pressure, sanctions, embargoes, and ultimately military action. This has been pretty obvious throughout history and you're a smart guy, it puzzles me how you can't see it in this case.

 

[Raoul]

Bingo! So what motivation does Israel have to negotiate when they can do whatever they want without any consequences? They can bully, make lives miserable, kill, imprison, create an apartheid state and nothing happens. Why on earth would they negotiate? They're doing what they want without consequences, so suggestion negotiations are the way to go is basically saying you want things to stay the same.

Change only happens when the aggressor is forced to stop. By public pressure, economic pressure, sanctions, embargoes, and ultimately military action. This has been pretty obvious throughout history and you're a smart guy, it puzzles me how you can't see it in this case.

The UN wouldn't be a part of the process. It would be direct between the two sides with one or two broker nations (probably the US and Egypt).

 

[maniak]

The UN wouldn't be a part of the process. It would be direct between the two sides with one or two broker nations (probably the US and Egypt).

Which isn't going to happen because Israel is happy with the status quo. Knowing this, what do you suggest?

 

[Raoul]

Which isn't going to happen because Israel is happy with the status quo. Knowing this, what do you suggest?

The same thing I've suggested for the past two pages. Both sides need to moderate and negotiate (such as in the proposal i posted above). The Israelis are going to have to reign in their extremist elements and Hamas is going to have to make a public statement that Israel has the right to exist, instead of saying stuff like this. Once that happens, the status quo will change.

 

[maniak]

The same thing I've suggested for the past two pages. Both sides need to moderate and negotiate (such as in the proposal i posted above). The Israelis are going to have to reign in their extremist elements and Hamas is going to have to make a public statement that Israel has the right to exist, instead of saying stuff like this. Once that happens, the status quo will change.

In other words, nothing will change.

And to be honest, the expression "both sides" is so ridiculous when you have such a one-sided situation. It's baffling they (Israeli gov and hamas) continue to be put on the same level when it comes to responsibility for the situation. Hamas is a desperate terrorist group, Israel is one of the most advanced nations on earth. Israel could alleviate human suffering on a large scale if they wanted, hamas as nowhere near that power.

I guess Russia and Ukraine are both responsible for the war, using this logic.

 

[Raoul]

In other words, nothing will change.

And to be honest, the expression "both sides" is so ridiculous when you have such a one-sided situation. It's baffling they (Israeli gov and hamas) continue to be put on the same level when it comes to responsibility for the situation. Hamas is a desperate terrorist group, Israel is one of the most advanced nations on earth. Israel could alleviate human suffering on a large scale if they wanted, hamas as nowhere near that power.

I guess Russia and Ukraine are both responsible for the war, using this logic.

There's no "using this logic" since the dynamic between Russia and Ukraine is completely different. The same can be said of most wars.

 

[Pintu]

 

[UweBein]

You can see it also as a war on a the dimension of sympathy. Rightly or wrongly the Palestinians can not demand much with Hamas on their side of the negotiation table - at least from a western perspective.

But I agree, the current situation is not too bad for Israel since they can still dictate what happens in the palestinian area. And the people in Israel seem to be supporting rather the right than the left.

Ideally, only a left wing government in Israel could broker a deal - but that would need to coincide with a left leaning swing in Palestine. Under such circumstances, they might be able to strike a deal which would anger both sides, which could be a possible first step towards improving relations.

 

[Pintu]

You can see it also as a war on a the dimension of sympathy. Rightly or wrongly the Palestinians can not demand much with Hamas on their side of the negotiation table - at least from a western perspective.

Hamas barely exists in the Westbank and that’s where the colonialism is expanding indefinitely. The US is not siding with the apartheid regime in Israel because of Hamas. The US is siding with the Apartheid because it was determined that Israel (despite the apartheid and the colonialism) serves some strategic interests of the US.

 

[Raoul]

Hamas barely exists in the Westbank and that’s where the colonialism is expanding indefinitely. The US is not siding with the apartheid regime in Israel because of Hamas. The US is siding with the Apartheid because it was determined that Israel (despite the apartheid and the colonialism) serves some strategic interests of the US.

There is no strategic interest on Israel. It simply comes down to the fact that there are a lot of messianic fanatics (on all sides), but particularly among evangelicals and Republicans, as well as among secular Jews who are mostly Democratic, who support Israel. This makes it one of the few issues where there is bipartisan agreement in the US.

 

[VidaRed]

The same energy that is going Russia's way needs to go to Israel.

Boycott all of their products...complain to stores that stock them too.

Don't be delusional. Geopolitics doesn't work like that.

Nation states do what is in there self interest, it in the self interest of europe and usa to have a weakened russia, hence the mass energy directed at them, whatever israel does or doesn't do doesn't harm europe or usa so nothing will happen. This is how the world works, get used to it. Morality isn't the decisive factor here.

 

[UweBein]

Hamas barely exists in the Westbank and that’s where the colonialism is expanding indefinitely. The US is not siding with the apartheid regime in Israel because of Hamas. The US is siding with the Apartheid because it was determined that Israel (despite the apartheid and the colonialism) serves some strategic interests of the US.

There is not one US or one EU. There are many factions within these entities.
Those that support Palestine are finding it hard to get there message across - Hamas is one of the reasons for that.
Whether Hamas is in West Bank or not is irrelevant, almost. I am talking about sympathy and perception is crucial.
You might underestimate how much credit Palestinians lost in the western world when Hamas rose to power in Gaza?

 

[Pintu]

There is no strategic interest on Israel. It simply comes down to the fact that there are a lot of messianic fanatics (on all sides), but particularly among evangelicals and Republicans, as well as among secular Jews who are mostly Democratic, who support Israel. This makes it one of the few issues where there is bipartisan agreement in the US.

I believe there is a concern that without regimes totally loyal to the US in Israel and in the Gulf states, the US interests in the region can be severely damaged.


Agree about the evangelicals, we have the same here and throughout "protestant Europe" many such lobbies pushing that Armageddon agenda. But according to the polls I've seen we are mostly ignorant and indifferent to what seems to be a very complex issue.

 

[Pintu]

There is not one US or one EU. There are many factions within these entities.
Those that support Palestine are finding it hard to get there message across - Hamas is one of the reasons for that.
Whether Hamas is in West Bank or not is irrelevant, almost. I am talking about sympathy and perception is crucial.
You might underestimate how much credit Palestinians lost in the western world when Hamas rose to power in Gaza?

Hamas "rose to power" via a coup d'Etat in Gaza after numerous conflicts between the Hamas government and the "Fath" President in what was supposedly a semi-presidential & semi-parliamentary system. I don't believe the Palestinians lost credit then, they only lost it where they never had any genuine credit. If that were the case, they should have had our support to get their "democracy" back from Hamas. Even if we'd keep denying them support in the fight for their freedom from the Apartheid imposed on them by the colonial state we support in many ways.

 

[Tibs]

Don't be delusional. Geopolitics doesn't work like that.

Nation states do what is in there self interest, it in the self interest of europe and usa to have a weakened russia, hence the mass energy directed at them, whatever israel does or doesn't do doesn't harm europe or usa so nothing will happen. This is how the world works, get used to it. Morality isn't the decisive factor here.

Obviously.

But, small actions multiplied can make a change...even if a small one.

Also, you're right about this is how the world works, and in the not too distant future it could feck us all up.

 

[The Corinthian]

^ thread.

 

[The Corinthian]

The Ukraine situation isn't applicable to the topic we're discussing in this thread given that the US (along with much of the developed world) currently view Hamas as a terrorist organization. That includes the European Union as well. Therefore this idea that Israel are going to be sanctioned in any meaningful way that would resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is pure fantasy. You make progress by moderating and bringing the debate back to the center, at which point you create the conditions for progress.

No, try again.

Mandela was considered a terrorist. Hamas were only added to the UK terrorist list in 2021, and that’s because the UK Home Secretary is a feckheaded bitch. It wasn’t too long ago she was having secret meetings with Bibi.

You keep on parroting this same nonsense as if you’re making some intellectual point, but the reality is you’re living in a fantasy land, and just making empty banal comments. When you have one group who are by all accounts depriving another group of basic human rights and living under an apartheid regime, you apply international pressure, just as is being done elsewhere right now in the world and was done in the past to South Africa.

 

[Raoul]

No, try again.

Mandela was considered a terrorist. Hamas were only added to the UK terrorist list in 2021, and that’s because the UK Home Secretary is a feckheaded bitch. It wasn’t too long ago she was having secret meetings with Bibi.

You keep on parroting this same nonsense as if you’re making some intellectual point, but the reality is you’re living in a fantasy land, and just making empty banal comments. When you have one group who are by all accounts depriving another group of basic human rights and living under an apartheid regime, you apply international pressure, just as is being done elsewhere right now in the world and was done in the past to South Africa.

Again, zero solutions but plenty of nonsensical comparisons to justify preserving the status quo.

Do you actually have a solution to offer that is realistically going to resolve the issue in a way that both sides ?

 

[The Corinthian]

Again, zero solutions but plenty of nonsensical comparisons to justify preserving the status quo.

Do you actually have a solution to offer that is realistically going to resolve the issue in a way that both sides ?

Did you actually read my posts? Which part of international pressure (ie sanctions) do you not understand?

 

[Raoul]

Did you actually read my posts? Which part of international pressure (ie sanctions) do you not understand?

That’s not a realistic prescription. If you read the earlier posts, Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by the US and EU, which means it is perceived as being committed against the Israelis (i.e., they are the victims of terrorism). So why then would nations that support Israel sanction them when these same nations regard Hamas policy as the actual problem?

 

[maniak]

There's no "using this logic" since the dynamic between Russia and Ukraine is completely different. The same can be said of most wars.

Three paragraphs and you only responded to the one that was obviously less serious. I have to assume you know your suggestion does nothing but keep the status quo.

 

[Raoul]

Three paragraphs and you only responded to the one that was obviously less serious. I have to assume you know your suggestion does nothing but keep the status quo.

There were two. I suspect that some make a tidy living off preserving the status quo, which is only prolonging the misery of those affected.

 

[Sultan]

The USA's approach to supporting Israel’s expansionist ambitions and murderous approach to reaching those goals needs a narrative and terrorism/Hamas are exactly the ideal tools and bogeymen to keep the status quo. If a long-lasting peace was something Israel and its friends really wanted Hamas would be history. No one can convince me Israel and USA with their powerful machinations cannot obliterate Hamas in an instant.

 

[2cents]

No one can convince me Israel and USA with their powerful machinations cannot obliterate Hamas in an instant.

I think that might seem to be the case if we accept the caricature of Hamas as “nothing more than a terrorist group”, and consider it something distinct from Palestinian society as a whole. However, if we view Hamas as a legitimate, authentic expression of the Palestinian resistance - not the only one but perhaps the dominant one today - then it becomes a lot harder to imagine ways to “obliterate” it without obliterating the Palestinians as a whole, to an extent the Israelis have been unwilling to do up to this point. Particularly so as, whatever disagreements ordinary Palestinians and other Palestinian political factions might have with Hamas’ social and political program, when it comes to resistance they tend to stand in full solidarity, much as Israeli society tends to overcome its many divisions in times of war.

 

[2cents]

 

[The Corinthian]

 

[lefty_jakobz]

https://electronicintifada.net/blog...thM060IV3B8rbQ0d3dV1E0db7YecKqQp8Ss3JM9vBcTM8

 

[Raoul]

The USA's approach to supporting Israel’s expansionist ambitions and murderous approach to reaching those goals needs a narrative and terrorism/Hamas are exactly the ideal tools and bogeymen to keep the status quo. If a long-lasting peace was something Israel and its friends really wanted Hamas would be history. No one can convince me Israel and USA with their powerful machinations cannot obliterate Hamas in an instant.

You forgot the EU, UK, Japan, Australia, Canada. All of these also list Hamas as such. Nations that are supportive include Iran and Syria. Much of the rest of the middle east including Egypt, Saudi, and Jordan have either banned or outlawed them from operating within their borders.

 

[2mufc0]

I'm not sure what Israel's end game is really, the policy and behaviours is not sustainable in the long run.

World power dynamics change, it may not happen in our lifetimes or even the next generations, but the tables will eventually turn. If they continue on this path it will be catastrophic for the whole region in the long term.

 

[VorZakone]

I'm not sure what Israel's end game is really, the policy and behaviours is not sustainable in the long run.

World power dynamics change, it may not happen in our lifetimes or even the next generations, but the tables will eventually turn. If they continue on this path it will be catastrophic for the whole region in the long term.

Sometimes I wonder if they even have an end game. They're also slowly losing the PR war which they could traditionally depend on due to Western sympathy. But even that Western sympathy is definitely not the same as it used to be.

 

[carvajal]

I'm not sure what Israel's end game is really, the policy and behaviours is not sustainable in the long run.

World power dynamics change, it may not happen in our lifetimes or even the next generations, but the tables will eventually turn. If they continue on this path it will be catastrophic for the whole region in the long term.

Seeing the population density, it seems obvious that the final plan is to occupy the entire region harassing the population and eating piece by piece until the locals are isolated.
Assuming that they cannot develop or create communities that live in peace in neighboring countries

 

[Pintu]

 

[lefty_jakobz]

Tough man beating kids up with a baton.

 

[Pintu]

Tough man beating kids up with a baton.

The so called democratic regime in Israel has a well documented tradition of torturing children. History will not be kind to the enablers in the West..

 

[Denis79]

The so called democratic regime in Israel has a well documented tradition of torturing children. History will not be kind to the enablers in the West..

Just be friends with the West and you can do anything without repercussions. Look at Yemen as well.