Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

antihenry said:
Would this region be any more peaceful if there was no Israel state to begin with? Somehow I doubt it. Middle East has been a hotbed of conflict throughout the history of humankind.

But that doesn't justify the massacre. The whole thing, from Trump's announcement to the mass murder is just crazy. It's absolute insanity.
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So I'll ask you the same question:

Hamas is the first government in history to deliberately lure it's enemies to kill it's own population.

Right or wrong?
 
Fearless said:
Read the question again.
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You read mine again. This thread is about discussing the violence yesterday against protesters by the Israeli force and you just respond "Hamas" for everything.

If you want to discuss the atrotices of Hamas, Start a different thread and lets discuss over there.

Just by responding "But Hamas do as well", is just pure deflection and a logically flawed argument as I previously said.
 
Denis79 said:
The sentiment might be shared across US politics but until now the leaders of the country have chosen not to implement the act because they knew what repercussions it would have.

I honestly think it was completely unnecessary to add fuel to a fire by moving the embassy and declaring Jerusalem the capital of Israel openly. Even someone with very little knowledge about the issues like me knew something bad was going to happen.

Edit: I'm neither for or against Israel or Palestine because I really don't know enough about the subject but I feel Trump was an idiot for doing what he did and I partly hold him responsible for violence brewing now.
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Did you know that even if the Embassy hadn’t been moved on the 15th, there was likely going to be protests/riots due to Nabka day?
The blame should be elsewhere.
 
Honest John said:
It is difficult to know what the Israelis soldiers could do. They were there to protect the border. The border was being breached by a violent mob. There was a clear threat that, unchecked, the mob would maraud into Israeli civilian areas possible killing people. Were the soldiers supposed to make an assessment on the ground that most of the protesters only had slings, stones and burning tyres. Therefore we need not shoot. How were they to know that among them there were not others with knives or other deadly weapons? I read that petrol bombs were used. That said the response did seem over-the-top. But what other response was realistically available to them which would not have resulted in danger to themselves or the people they were protecting? Do people think that if the Israeli Army had just backed away the Palestinians would have stopped somewhere short of invading Israeli civilian areas? How would they be able to be so sure? And what were kids and babies doing there? For all the sympathy that I have for the Palestinian cause it is sometimes difficult to believe that Hamas are not firing up and using their own people to cynically bolster public support. I mean they must know by now that the Israelis do not take any chances or do anything by halves. So sending people to protest using that level of aggression would only really result one response.
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Israel breaches the border of Palestine every single day, the hypocrisy is total
 
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Revan said:
And lost terribly.

You can also consider the other site, for example after the peace talks, Yaser Arafat compared that peace to Mohamed's peace with his tribe (when he was in Medina). Aka, a temporary solution until we become stronger to defeat the Jews.

No-one is interested in a compromise. And with the Israel holding all the cards, it means that only Palestinians will suffer. They can continue like this forever, or prepare for extreme compromises including the entire Jerusalem as capital of Israel. The alternative is to continue dying or expect for an extreme change of powers (essentially a new world war with US losing it, and some Arabian ally winning it). Chances for that are extremely unlikely.

On the other hand, Israel holds all the cards, being military more powerful than all Arabian countries (+ Iran) combined, their citizens having comfortable lives, US backing them and EU accepting what they do. They need to gain a lot in order to show even the smallest of compromises.
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'The sun will never set on the British empire'
 
bleedred said:
You read mine again. This thread is about discussing the violence yesterday against protesters by the Israeli force and you just respond "Hamas" for everything.

If you want to discuss the atrotices of Hamas, Start a different thread and lets discuss over there.

Just by responding "But Hamas do as well", is just pure deflection and a logically flawed argument as I previously said.
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Now your deflecting. If you really can't see how Hamas are involved then discussion with you is pointless.
 
Achilles McCool said:
Did you know that even if the Embassy hadn’t been moved on the 15th, there was likely going to be protests/riots due to Nabka day?
The blame should be elsewhere.
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Maybe the outcome would have been the same, maybe not. But in my opinion it didn't help an already tense situation.
 
Fearless said:
So I'll ask you the same question:

Hamas is the first government in history to deliberately lure it's enemies to kill it's own population.

Right or wrong?
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You've proved your love for Israel is above justice and any empathy to the suffering of others. Justice should always trump regardless of caste, colour, faith or love of your country.
 
Sultan said:
You've proved your love for Israel is above justice and any empathy to the suffering of others. Justice should always trump regardless of caste, colour, faith or love of your country.
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Sults, its like he is typing on a broken keyboard, which wont type nothing but "Hamas". There is no point.
 
bleedred said:
You read mine again. This thread is about discussing the violence yesterday against protesters by the Israeli force and you just respond "Hamas" for everything.

If you want to discuss the atrotices of Hamas, Start a different thread and lets discuss over there.

Just by responding "But Hamas do as well", is just pure deflection and a logically flawed argument as I previously said.
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If you can’t tell that Hamas is the big Elephant in the room and is orchestrating these protests, then the flaw is with your denial.
 
Fearless said:
I have zero sympathy for their Jihadist cause built on their self admitted failed attempts to kill Jews.
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How m.ny have they actually killed compared to the Palestinians that Isreal have? Not an attack, I'm genuinely curious.
 
Mozza said:
So there aren't any tunnels? Or there are? You need to keep your story straight when trying to justify Israel's murdering Palestinians
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What @Fearless is saying is that, yes there are tunnels, but the only reason they aren’t being used is because they’ve been decimated by security forces.

Mozza said:
If Hamas have hundreds of attack tunnels why aren't they using them?
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they’ve been destroyed. Better question would be “why hasn’t Hamas used that money to help build/repair homes and infrastructure?

Mozza said:
No. But unlike Israeli sniper rifles they aren't being used
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because they’ve been destroyed

Mozza said:
Because they are not interested in attacking Israel currently
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Wrong. Then why did they build the tunnels in the first place? If they were still operational, I would bet that Hamas would have some of their “protestors” going through the tunnels instead of trying to go through the fences.
 
mu4c_20le said:
This wasn't your usual protest or demonstration though. They (israel) were facing tens of thousands of angry rioters who were also egged on by many clerics to encroach the fence. They were unarmed but I doubt they were there to take the israelis out to afternoon tea. It is unfortunate that the israelis had to open fire but with the huge crowds being whipped into a frenzy I feel like they had to defend themselves and their people. I just think it's not as one sided as the media seem to be portraying it.
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55 Palestinian deaths to 0 Israeli deaths is pretty one sided from where I'm sitting.
 
Kaos said:
This is what I find truly bizarre. For starters the countries that attacked Israel all those decades ago are either on friendly terms with them now and/or couldn’t give two shits about the Palestinians. A little bizarre to punish the Palestinians for it, almost none of which were alive during the time. It would be abit like collectively punishing Germans today for the Pearl Harbour attack.

And let’s be honest, this has nothing to do with 1947, it’s just a convenience excuse the hardliners clutch on to to validate any excessive show of force or lack of diplomatic initiative. But even if it was a genuine reason, when does it stop? Are the Palestinians to be indefinitely deprived of any form of just statehood because of events that happened 70 years ago? I mean give it another 70 years - will the hardliners still point to events 140 years ago?

And before anyone gives me the whole ‘survival’ and ‘never again’ schtick- give me a break. A nuclear state with the most powerful military in the region and the most powerful nation on earth as its guardian isn’t going to get near to having its survival compromised. Not when the very people you claim are a threat have no resources or diplomatic protection to boast of.
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'1947' sounds a lot like the treaty Ireland was offered after in 1921. You'll have a 'sovereign state' but not really. Also it's hard to trust your long term oppressors at a meeting table. I hope for everyone involved that they can find the type of solution that we and England found but it seems even more complicated than that even.
 
kidbob said:
'1947' sounds a lot like the treaty Ireland was offered after in 1921. You'll have a 'sovereign state' but not really. Also it's hard to trust your long term oppressors at a meeting table. I hope for everyone involved that they can find the type of solution that we and England found but it seems even more complicated than that even.
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Ireland didn't want to wipe the UK off the map, so yeah, different scale.
 
Fearless said:
Ireland didn't want to wipe the UK off the map, so yeah, different scale.
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Sorry mate but damn right we did. We knew we weren't capable of it but a lot of the population would have been happy to massacre the English at that time.
 
Hamas came into being in 1987. Came to power in 2006. Israel has been killing innocent and suppressing and caging Palestinians for decades. Narratives and excuses keep changing.
 
Nikhil said:
No, that is what the West are doing to the Kurds. They have been complicit in this regard. They stand by and watch as Kurds are oppressed and brutalised.

But look at the selective outrage. That's what irks me. Arabs and the world media kick up a huge fuss when Israel responds to Hamas protests. But the Kurds have been brutalised by Arabs and Turks in Iraq, Turkey, and Syria. They want a sovereign state in their homeland. They have been persecuted since ages now. The international media have no interest in the plight of the Kurds. Arabs couldn't care less about the Kurds. Scum Erdogan would gladly butcher Kurds. Saddam has already carried out a genocide against them by using chemical weapons to ethnically cleanse them.

Arabs and Turkey are quick to attack Israel for not being willing to give the Palestinians a state, but they are doing the same thing to the Kurds. Hypocrisy!
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I will agree that what is happening to the Kurdish people is intolerable and should be highlighted at every turn. That doesn't make what is happening in the West Bank and Gaza Strip any more palatable.
 
Why do I read these fecking threads. I just want some different perspectives/information on the conflict and it's always the same old:

"Let me ask you a question."
"OK but here's another question."
"That doesn't answer my question though."
"NO, you answer MINE"

@oates you look like you had some interesting stuff. If you've any links you'd recommend I'd appreciate a DM. If not no worries, I can always google.

Also as an aside-if a tunnel is destroyed does it cease to be a tunnel? Or a tunnel in a state of destruction... or is part of it now a tunnel up to the destroyed/collapsed point.
 
If anything, Israel is actually carrying out the deed of trying to wipe out the Palestinians.
 
Charlie Foley said:
I just want some different perspectives/information on the conflict
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There's some good debate in the Middle East Politics thread and in some of the older threads relating to the conflict. A reactive thread like this probably isn't the best place to actually learn anything. Would you like some recommended books/articles or stuff like that?
 
Achilles McCool said:
What @Fearless is saying is that, yes there are tunnels, but the only reason they aren’t being used is because they’ve been decimated by security forces.

they’ve been destroyed. Better question would be “why hasn’t Hamas used that money to help build/repair homes and infrastructure?

because they’ve been destroyed

Wrong. Then why did they build the tunnels in the first place? If they were still operational, I would bet that Hamas would have some of their “protestors” going through the tunnels instead of trying to go through the fences.
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Hamas have rockets, machine guns and all sorts if other gear. Why has none of that been used?

Screaming Hamas doesn't excuse Israel of its murdering
 
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