No, because Gerard Pique is a part of history.
Is Ramos the most overrated CB in history?
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How does that sound for a striker not being part of an all time great attack in terms of numbers scored?
He does cost his team occasionally (I think a lot of people are over-stating how often it happens), but there's no doubt the positives massively outweigh the negatives.
It's hard to know how to rate him when compared to other central defensive greats. He's obviously not as consistently great as they are defensively (key word there is 'consistently' - he actually can be just as good but it doesn't happen as often as they did), but he brings more to the midfield and attack than they did. So the question simply is whether what he brings on the ball and on set pieces outweighs what they bought defensively? I honestly don't know where I stand on that question.
It's hard to know how to rate him when compared to other central defensive greats. He's obviously not as consistently great as they are defensively (key word there is 'consistently' - he actually can be just as good but it doesn't happen as often as they did), but he brings more to the midfield and attack than they did. So the question simply is whether what he brings on the ball and on set pieces outweighs what they bought defensively? I honestly don't know where I stand on that question.
Do they? And so what if they do? I'm not saying he's crap. But Maldini, Nesta, Cannavaro he isn't...
Ramos is a big game player.
People don't rate him high defensively - because Real plays with very high defensive line and with very attacking minded full backs. It is easy to get caught when you are covering half the field and sometimes the zones of 2 or 3 of your teammates. It is a completely different story when you are defending deep and attackers have no space at all.
Second reason is the number of stupid mistakes he has made during the years. But this was usually in la liga matches against mid table teams and for me seems to be no longer the case.
As I started - he is a big game player not only for his winner mentality but also for his physical attributes and skills. Just watch him closely and check how many times he disposes the opponents even before they get their first touch on the ball.
Most important player in the squad right now. Replacing him will be almost as tough as replacing Ronaldo.
People don't rate him high defensively - because Real plays with very high defensive line and with very attacking minded full backs. It is easy to get caught when you are covering half the field and sometimes the zones of 2 or 3 of your teammates. It is a completely different story when you are defending deep and attackers have no space at all.
Second reason is the number of stupid mistakes he has made during the years. But this was usually in la liga matches against mid table teams and for me seems to be no longer the case.
As I started - he is a big game player not only for his winner mentality but also for his physical attributes and skills. Just watch him closely and check how many times he disposes the opponents even before they get their first touch on the ball.
Most important player in the squad right now. Replacing him will be almost as tough as replacing Ronaldo.
The shit Ramos and Pique take is unreal.
I mean just 1 World Cup, Two European Championships, 8 Champions Leagues(counting Pique at United), 12 La Liga's, 10 Copa's, 7 club world titles and 1 EPL champions medal between them.
How anyone can call either of them overrated is insane.
No, he’s really good.
Most overrated CB in the 21st century is John Stones.
Most overrated CB in the 21st century is John Stones.
Does anyone even rate him?
Lots of people think he’s class yes
It's funny that you mention Cannavaro because he didn't succeed as a CB at Real Madrid. Neither did Walter Samuel, who was known as "Il Muro" (The Wall) in Italy. Why? Because being a CB in Madrid demands a set of qualities very few defenders have, for the reasons some people have described in this thread so far.
He hasn’t been rated since he was at Everton and even then he wasn’t rated.
I’m not sure where you getting that from to be honest mate.
Ramos at his peak was class. What brings him down a peg or two is that he’s a sniveling shitbag.
Great career and trophies galore. I’m sure he won’t take his critics on this thread seriously.
Great career and trophies galore. I’m sure he won’t take his critics on this thread seriously.
He is dirty alright but does the dirty work you need sometimes. What he did to Salah in the Cup final was dirty but brilliant for Madrid. I hated him and still do but he will always be one of the best CBs in football.
Yes.
No, VVD is.
Bear in mind that Cannavaro was well into his 30s when he had his spell in Madrid. It's not as if they signed him at 27.
Cannavaro was excellent in his first 2 years at Madrid, and that was when he was nearing the end of his career. He was nearly 33 when he went to Real.
He had transferred to Madrid aged 33, got into FIFPro XI in both 2006 (largely on the back of the World Cup) and 2007 & when Marca had a vote on Madrid's best foreign XI, he got in. Around 2008-2009 he had struggled with pace (especially against Messi), but he was already what, 35 at the time? And it's not like Ramos has a stellar record against him anyway.
I actually rate Ramos and I agree with some of your arguments, but he was never as good as peak Cannavaro. Very few were, to be fair.
That was when he was named best player in the world
Also, Ramos is in his 30s btw, not that the guy you are responding to will care though.
What does that have to do with anything? We've watched him now for well over a decade - or is this thread only about this season?
In his 20s Ramos made stupid decisions, bad tackles and lacked discipline. Over the course of his career he has not been as good as Maldini, Nesta or Cannavaro. It was then pointed out that Cannavaro wasn't brilliant at Madrid so I made the point that he was well into his 30s at that stage (33 - 36).
It doesn't matter at what point in Sergio Ramos' career you pick, his tendency to attract cards more than the average centre back was apparent. I'm not quite sure what his age right now has to do with anything (perhaps I'm missing something, I'm very open to hear/read).
Again, I'm not saying he's crap but he's certainly- in my opinion- overrated.
It's not my intention to compare Ramos and Cannavaro because they are very different players. I just wanted to point out at a practical case of a legendary CB like Cannavaro not being comfortable in a team where defenders were more exposed than usual. And this is a team that had Diarra and Emerson in front of the back line, and Capello as coach. Still far from some of the crazy attacked minded sides Ramos took part in the 2010s, where the Marcelo-Ronaldo duo simply and literally refused to defend at times. It's no surprise Casemiro had such a good welcome in 2016.
And Walter Samuel was a key piece in the Inter side that won the CL. A monster of a defender... in a team that suits his strengths.
By the way, just as an anecdote, the best XI in 2006/07 according to Don Balon, the most prestigious one in Spain back then, had Sergio Ramos in it.
Glad you mentioned this especially as being an Inter fan, Samuel is my all time favorite centre back.
Ramos gets a lot of flack unfairly imo and he's an absolute legend as it's not easy playing next to Marcelo for so many years.
I think he's actually underrated. Most people point to the odd mistake or the rash tackle, but he really doesn't do it as often as people think. He's good on the ball and good at set pieces. Throughout his career he's been in teams that don't have proper defensive cover from the midfield and often the fullbacks are quite attacking.
Cannavaro was very good in his season with us and still good in the second before hitting a cliff in 2008
Still not as good as he was for juventus or parma, because he far more exposed with us. Even under Capello. Same story at inter, where he flopped in part for the same reasons(and in part because he deliberately played poorly so they'd ship him off to juventus. Because the thing with calciopoli that doesn't get much attention is the fact that juventus controlled, through the agent company GEA which belonged to the son of Moggi and employed the son of Lippi, something like 70% of all players in Italy)
And playing better than ever
I think he’s a poor defender who is good at making recovery tackles. However no denying he has big moments in games and is a proper leader of men. Think of all the headers and stuff he scores in important moments.
Things like that cover up for how average he is as a defender in my opinion.
Things like that cover up for how average he is as a defender in my opinion.
No, he's great. As a CB, as good as Piqué, but far more consistent, and also great at scoring dramatic goals (usually headers) and good mentality/belief/captain skills.
His main flaw is that he's dirty/messy with tackles (hence the multiple yellow/red cards since 2003).
His main flaw is that he's dirty/messy with tackles (hence the multiple yellow/red cards since 2003).
Pique was the more consistent of the two throughout their careers, though i agree right now Sergio might be the more consistent of the two(then again Sergio is playing at the most consistent level of his career as a defender. Easily the best defender in the world with VVD this season)
Much better leader of course and his ability to start attacks and come up with big attacking contributions in times of need is still unmatched among defenders
Btw Pique is still a great defender. What you're seeing right now from him is basically what Sergio had to deal with most seasons, and people are criticizing him for being unable to be barcelona's defence by himself...
Much better leader of course and his ability to start attacks and come up with big attacking contributions in times of need is still unmatched among defenders
Btw Pique is still a great defender. What you're seeing right now from him is basically what Sergio had to deal with most seasons, and people are criticizing him for being unable to be barcelona's defence by himself...
Ramos is underrated.
I think even Chiellini acknowledged how brilliant that was.
2 Euro's, 1 World Cup, 4 CL's, multiple league titles. Seriously, what a career.
Your post is very interesting. Let me share some data before Ramos joined Madrid so we can see what the defense was like back then:
1997-98: 45 (wins CL)
1998-99: 62
1999-00: 48 (wins CL)
2000-01: 40 (wins the league)
2001-02: 44 (wins CL)
2002-03: 42 (wins the league)
2003-04: 54
Except for the odd season, that was a top flight team. Please, feel free to add as many exclamation marks as you consider per season
Your post is very interesting. Let me share some data before Ramos joined Madrid so we can see what the defense was like back then:
1997-98: 45 (wins CL)
1998-99: 62
1999-00: 48 (wins CL)
2000-01: 40 (wins the league)
2001-02: 44 (wins CL)
2002-03: 42 (wins the league)
2003-04: 54
Except for the odd season, that was a top flight team. Please, feel free to add as many exclamation marks as you consider per season
Seems to me you’ve had far more All time great midfielders and forwards than defenders, no surprise.
Your post is very interesting. Let me share some data before Ramos joined Madrid so we can see what the defense was like back then:
1997-98: 45 (wins CL)
1998-99: 62
1999-00: 48 (wins CL)
2000-01: 40 (wins the league)
2001-02: 44 (wins CL)
2002-03: 42 (wins the league)
2003-04: 54
Except for the odd season, that was a top flight team. Please, feel free to add as many exclamation marks as you consider per season
Well, I mean, as far I as I know Real weren't really known for having an amazing defense in those years. They had a very young Casillas in goal, Hierro and Helguera (not a world class combination by any means) and Salgado-Carlos on the wings.
Carlos was also not known to be great defensively. Comparing Ramos to them and saying that's reason his defending is world class doesn't prove a point.
Your post is very interesting. Let me share some data before Ramos joined Madrid so we can see what the defense was like back then:
1997-98: 45 (wins CL)
1998-99: 62
1999-00: 48 (wins CL)
2000-01: 40 (wins the league)
2001-02: 44 (wins CL)
2002-03: 42 (wins the league)
2003-04: 54
Except for the odd season, that was a top flight team. Please, feel free to add as many exclamation marks as you consider per season
I don't have enough symbols to annotate this with
Who was the main defender during this era? Was it Hierro? How would you compare him against Ramos (both obviously being Real Madrid legends)
Also, when did the Galatico era start?
Van Dijk is the most overrated CB in history?
I'd be interested to see you expand on this point.
Hierro, who was a converted DM. Galactico era started with Florentino Perez(2000) though it wasn't named such until 2003 iirc?
I don't have enough symbols to annotate this with
Who was the main defender during this era? Was it Hierro? How would you compare him against Ramos (both obviously being Real Madrid legends)
Also, when did the Galatico era start?
Sergio Ramos > Hierro
Btw Mourinho era:
2011 - 33
2012 - 32
2013 - 42
CL
2011- 6
2012 - 9
2013 - 18
Now, some of those teams mentioned by yourself and @GatoLoco were just poor sides, and some were really weird, but those that weren't have one thing in common: the attacks were exceptional by league standards
Rather than using the numbers to prove Ramos defending is this or that level (I don't think I did that), I just wanted to give some context to @adexkola 's post, showing some of the stats before the player joined the team. If anything my point is that in a typical Real Madrid enviroment, conceding a fair share is the norm rather than the exception, so it just doesn't make sense to draw conclusions out of each individual of a Madrid backline based on the numbers.
For instance, in 1996-97 Madrid conceded very few goals for a league with 22 teams in it. Does that mean the defenders were far more talented than the ones in the 1997-98 side? I don't think so, they were the same individuals. I'd rather say Capello was the coach in 96-97 and some players thought the team played 'catenaccio' by their own standards. That's logical if you think about the culture Capello imported that year and compare the big differences in style between Spain and Italy, the first one, more individual and attacking minded, the second one with more discipline, tactics and collective effort.
It is very interesting that you share Mourinho's era numbers too. If I recall correctly, under Mourinho the backline was characterized by the following things:
- Arbeloa, who was very defensive minded, would play many minutes as RB.
- Coentrao and Marcelo would share many minutes at LB.
- Marcelo wasn't allowed to attack as freely as we have seen last seasons.
People who say Ramos is an "average" defender or "overrated" are straight up delusional and bitter.
By looking at a lot of these comments, I'd say the Spaniard is actually underrated. He also still seems very up to playing at the highest level, so who knows how much more he can add to his CV.
By looking at a lot of these comments, I'd say the Spaniard is actually underrated. He also still seems very up to playing at the highest level, so who knows how much more he can add to his CV.
Madrid going from 2008 to 2020 conceding more goals than Barcelona in every single league season is definitely a bad look even taking into account how attacking they were.
How do people rate Pepe by the way? I think at his best he was better than Varane and there were quite a few seasons where he outperformed Ramos but it feels like he won't remembered anywhere near as much. He was the starter for both the 2014 and 2016 Champions Leagues while Varane was the starter for 2017 and 2018.
How do people rate Pepe by the way? I think at his best he was better than Varane and there were quite a few seasons where he outperformed Ramos but it feels like he won't remembered anywhere near as much. He was the starter for both the 2014 and 2016 Champions Leagues while Varane was the starter for 2017 and 2018.