Hummels never played under Guardiola, Martinez also barely played for an extended period under Guardiola as he was injured most of the time
According to transfermarkt Martinez played 64 games in DM at Bilbao and 45 in CB
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Is Ramos the most overrated CB in history?
- Thread starter deafepl
- Start date
According to transfermarkt Martinez played 64 games in DM at Bilbao and 45 in CB
Read carefully again, i acknowledged that he didn't play under Guardiola and i said "mostly" not "exclusively"as a DMF.
So based on that definition, and taking Ramos and his CB position as references, if you change the system to a way more conservative one (i.e. by putting a defensive full back besides the CB, using a winger that tracks back in that wing, switching to 4-4-2 and employing a more cautious style which is reflected on a not such a high defensive line), you will rate that CB much more, because he will more likely than not prevent goals his team was conceding up to that point.
I would say, a defender, which ultimately is an abstraction for football player, has to be rated based on what he provides to the team under determined circumstances, same as any other player in any other position by the way.
There are plenty of offensive minded teams that have good defensive records. Ramos is a hell of a football player. He's just playing in the wrong position in my opinion. He should be a midfielder. He makes too many costly mistakes to be the last man. Would we excuse Phil Jones if he scored a bunch of goals? Of course not. Meanwhile Ramos likely has just as many, if not more mistakes to his name than Jones yet he's celebrated as being on of the greats. Doesn't make sense to me one bit...
I know you acknowledged that Ramos is a good football player, but come on, did you really try to compare Phil Jones to him?
If you just say no, we can move on, and be done with it.
I know what I said, and you're right. That isn't fair to Phil. I would have went with the "Spanish David Luiz" but the Arsenal man has had enough abuse lately
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Just like with Benzema, you don't play so long for a crazy club like Real Madrid if you're not one of the best in the world
Ramos is the most iconic defender of the last decade in my opinion.
This
I had to go and check this as I didn't believe it, but there you go. He actually didn't spend that long at Bayern really, only 3 years, which just doesn't sound right. I think in my head I've muddled him into all the other Dortmund players who have ended up at Bayern.
Regarding Ramos, I think he's a good defender, but not as good as he thinks he is in either box. He's also probably my least favourite footballer of the modern era, so that could be colouring my opinion.
You are smart enough to know what he was trying to say
Fixed it
If by achievement/trophies alone, Pique should be AT LEAST equal to Ramos, no? Maybe even greater.
This is silly. Ramos is one of the very best in his position as a defender ( first and foremost) even before we consider the other qualities he brings to the team in the opposition’s box. There’s a reason the likes of Chiellini rate him extremely highly (often calling him the best). His problem is that he’s too volatile and can be antagonised easily while having a tendency to lose concentration in lesser games. However when it comes to the grandest stage, there’s not many better. From record; he’s rarely cost Madrid on such occasions and is in fact one of their biggest assets. He was one of the primary reasons they won La Decima with stellar performances in the semi-final and final. He was also imperious throughout their other games en-route to the 3-peat. The one crucial game he missed in that period was the return leg against Juve in 2018 where the Italians almost made a miraculous comeback from a 3-0 deficit. Ramos’ leadership and commanding presence at the back was severely missed that day. I think it comes down to this; if any other defender of the last 10 years was to play in his position at Real Madrid instead of him, would the club have been as successful as they were? I think it’s highly unlikely - especially for those CL triumphs. Not to mention, they have the best defensive record in the league this season in which he’s played a vital part of achieving. Phil Jones analogies is just nonsensical.
Imagine starting out as a pro and being told you will achieve what this guy has...and still have people trying to play down how good you are.
He is rash and he constantly plays on the edge, but what a personality, what a player and what a career.
He is rash and he constantly plays on the edge, but what a personality, what a player and what a career.
Say what you want. I will never be convinced. One thing I know for sure is nobody ever questioned whether or not Maldini was over rated. Or Nesta. Stam, Cannavaro, Vidic, etc. Has to make one wonder. If Ramos truly is a world class player and one of the best of all time, then why do so many people question him. Nobody questioned the true greats that I just listed...hmmm
People question him because of their subjective opinions about his character not because they’re objectively analysing his game. He’s a polarising figure - so tends to rub people the wrong way. The guys you mentioned were generally, universally loved.
It’s the same reason some people still question players like Ronaldo till this day who should be unquestionable.
Could also have something to do with the fact that he's an accident waiting to happen...the man has received something like 26 red cards and 170 yellow cards during his career. He is caught out of position way too much, lunges in way too much, and tries to make tackles he shouldn't try way too often...
Ramos is a clutch player, no doubt about it. But him strictly as a defender, he was never the best in the world. He is a great player, I mean so many crucial goals, that can't be coincidence, but as a defender strictly he doesn't belong to the top tier.
And like I said, it’s usually never in situations that end up costing his team in the long run. I agree, it’s a black mark for him to have such a bad disciplinary but the fact that he’s always risen to the occasion for club and country and rarely ever has those kind of matches in the biggest games negates that for me. He’s as reliable as it gets in his club and country’s biggest matches. And for his other traits, its like Zidane who didn’t always perform over the course of a season but was always one of the best players when it counted most (although I’d say Ramos is pretty consistent these days).
If he is so good in the big matches, then how come in 32 La Liga matches vs Barcelona, their record is 8 wins, 7 ties and 17 losses. Also, during those matches he's had 15 yellow cards and been sent off 4 times. If I look at all competitions, Ramos has faced Barca 46 times. Their record is 14 wins, 10 ties and 22 losses and he's had 19 yellow card and sent off 5 times. It's not secret that La Liga is usually a two horse race, and seeing as LaLiga does tie breakers based on head to head record before of +/- it is safe to say that makes El Classico the most important match of the year. And seeing as there really isn't much between these two teams most years, El Classico can determine who wins the league each year. So if he "usually shows up in the big games" then how come his record here doesn't show that???
https://www.transfermarkt.com/sergio-ramos/bilanzdetails/spieler/25557/plus/1/gegner/131
Oh, and to give a little perspective on a real world class defender, Rio Ferdinand only had 1 red card his entire EPL career and 36 yellows. He only had 70 fouls called against him. Ramos has more than 2 times the amount of yellow cards as Rio had fouls. Do you know why? Because Rio Ferdinand was a world class defender. Ramos is not and never will be...
https://www.premierleague.com/players/1111/Rio-Ferdinand/stats
Completely agree. This is why I think he should have been a midfielder...
Luiz is indeed an appropriate analogy. Poor positioning, awareness, decision making and rash challenges.I know what I said, and you're right. That isn't fair to Phil. I would have went with the "Spanish David Luiz" but the Arsenal man has had enough abuse lately
Dumb argument
Good point: the answer is, yes he's had trouble against barcelona. We did in general. For most of the last 20 years they've been better than us, at times shamefully so, and that generated a inferiority complex that has lead to us often playing on edge against them. The way the rivalry escalated with Mourinho has left scars.
But it's a good point, he has often struggled to keep him emotions in check against them
Dumb argument again. Cristiano's record against barcelona: 10W 8D 14L
Does that mean Cristiano was poor in big games? (Rhetorical question btw)
Yes. Because Rio spent his whole career in England
Guy is clearly a great footballer with an elite mentality but he’s not and never will be a great defender. I think he would have been exposed badly if he ever came to the Prem in a less dominant team than Madrid’s. You simply don’t get 25 red cards if you know how to defend.
Does anyone know how was he named best defender of La Liga in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2017 not being a great defender? I really try my best to understand this, but I don't really get it. But again, this is a place where I saw Ramos getting criticized for his performance in a game vs Bayern where he was colossal, so it's not completely illogical.
i mean, there are some fair points against him, such as his disciplinary reccord, which is unquestionably poor for a defender of his stature, or that strictly in defensive terms he's not on the level of greats such as nesta, stam or rio, he's simply never been as consistent as those guys, but yeah the idea that he isn't a great defender is bonkers and some of the arguments are raised are frankly too dumb to take seriously
to be clear, sergio ramos is very much recognized as one of the best defenders of his generation and an all time great by pretty much every current and former player, manager or pundit, and the vast majority of football fans worldwide. Generally you don't get that kind of recognition by not being freaking great at what you do
He really has been one of the best defenders in recent history in my opinion, so no, I don’t think he is overrated.
It's not a dumb argument. He said that despite his disciplinary record, it's usually in meaningless games but he always shows up in the big games. Well it doesn't get any bigger than Barcelona...Also, CR7 has absolutely nothing to do with this argument. Nobody is saying he's over rated and doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. Ramos on the other hand? Horrible defender. As for Rio, is that suggesting that they don't give out yellow cards in England? Well he only had 11 yellow cards over his career in Europe. Why? Because he was a fantastic defender who had great positioning and was a fantastic defender. Ramos? Not even close...
I would say it doesn't get any bigger than Champions League and World Cup and I think I am being objective here. Well, unless people give more importance today to things such as head to head records between Real Madrid and Barcelona in the 50s rather than European Cup trophies. In that case I would have to agree with you. But I doubt many people in this forum are aware of that head to head stat.
If we rate defenders based on records vs certain teams at their peaks, (and I say this because Barcelona have been in pretty good shape for most of past seasons since Ramos is a professional footballer), I think nobody is going to look particularly well at the end of the day. Did Manchester with Rio do particularly well stats-wise when Barcelona was in good shape? Well, 3-1 and 2-0 defeats suggest that's not the case.
Now, the question is, has Ramos been good in big games overall in his professional career? Absolutely not. He's been magnificent. I mean if we really made an effort to show every big game with Ramos being stellar we would really be flooding this thread, and users like @adexkola would increment his hate towards him even more. And I don't think that's necessary at this point in time
I don't rate Rio that high. Vidic covered for Rio a lot. Ramos is definitely better than Rio as a defender
Not really, Rio was the more accomplished defender in my opinion you could catch Vidic out with pace, not Rio.
I would say it doesn't get any bigger than Champions League and World Cup and I think I am being objective here. Well, unless people give more importance today to things such as head to head records between Real Madrid and Barcelona in the 50s rather than European Cup trophies. In that case I would have to agree with you. But I doubt many people in this forum are aware of that head to head stat.
If we rate defenders based on records vs certain teams at their peaks, (and I say this because Barcelona have been in pretty good shape for most of past seasons since Ramos is a professional footballer), I think nobody is going to look particularly well at the end of the day. Did Manchester with Rio do particularly well stats-wise when Barcelona was in good shape? Well, 3-1 and 2-0 defeats suggest that's not the case.
Now, the question is, has Ramos been good in big games overall in his professional career? Absolutely not. He's been magnificent. I mean if we really made an effort to show every big game with Ramos being stellar we would really be flooding this thread, and users like @adexkola would increment his hate towards him even more. And I don't think that's necessary at this point in time
Champions League and World Cup are huge games. No doubt. But our biggest game of the year is vs Liverpool and Real Madrid's biggest game of the year is vs Barca. You've heard of El Classico right?
Well, those who are actually participating in the game certainly dont.
You know, legendary players and managers, all of them rates Ramos highly.
Rashford nicking his penalty technique?
His one today was a carbon copy of Ramos's against Getafe.
His one today was a carbon copy of Ramos's against Getafe.
What do you define as "led"? Because in their last CL winning campaign, Ronaldo's last goal was in the quarter finals. He did not score in the semi or final. If you're defining "led" as come up in important moments and save/win games, then S. Ramos definitely led them. He scored the only goal in the 1-1 CL final against Atletico, so without that goal, they lost. Similarly, to their first triumph, Ramos al
By that same logic, there are many fans who consider C Ronaldo as well as Messi overrated, so should they also be questioned? On the other hand, not many fans considered the Brazilian Ronaldo overrated.
I think this has to do more with the era we live in with social media and fans focusing on calling out player as soon as he has a bad game. C. Ronaldo had 2 bad games after the season resumed this year and fans were already calling him done etc. Fans also do the same with Messi.
Your example of Maldini: Maldini's best years were in the 90s, and maybe early 2000s. How many people would have posted online and critiqued him after a bad performance. Maldini is a legend but had bad games too.
As for Cannavaro, I'm pretty sure he was generally critiqued when he went to R. Madrid as his performances were nowhere near as good as at the World Cup or back in Serie A. Difference was that in Italy he played in a more defensive set up, while in R. Madrid he was exposed.
Also, I think Ramos has.it harder than most central defenders as he's playing alongside Marcelo , who imo is the worst defender I have ever seen.
What are you talking about? There will always be some idiots, but most people will say that ROnaldo and Messi are two of the best players ever with maybe some debate that includes Maradonna and Pele, but that's about it. Ramos on the other hand has a large amount of doubters. Don't believe me? Just look at this post. As for him playing alongside Marcelo (which doesn't happen often anymore), that should give him even more reason to be positionally sound and not looking to score goals while in possession. But there he is, going on runs while Marcelo is already down at the corner flag. And BTW....if these were reasons for me to say that he's "had it hard" you would see me putting down Varane...
But no one rates Varane at Ramos' level. Also Varane plays next to Carvajal who is much better defensively than Marcelo. Varane is clueless without Ramos in big games. You remember Juventus' almost comeback scoring 3 goals at the Bernabeu? Ramos was missing that match and Varane had to 'lead' the defence and we saw what happened.
Messi has many doubters saying he only looks good in Barca's system and doesnt perform well for Argentina. Sure people rate them but there are many who also find them overrated.
But let's stick to your example of defenders. Cannavaro got a lot of stick for his defending at Real Madrid, and he was a joke when he returned to Italy later also, he was considered overrated during his time at Inter where he really wasn't at the same level as Parma and later Juventus.
What I'm saying is that "not being rated" is more relevant today due to online forums and social media.
If it was as popular in 2002 I could see the Maldini being overrated posts after he got outjumped by a guy half his size in the 2002 world cup to get Italy knocked out.
There are even people calling Van Dijk overrated on this forum despite his excellence over the last few years.