Is Ramos the most overrated CB in history?

adexkola said:
So what is he responsible for on the field, if a direct metric related to how good of a job you're doing as a defender, can't be put on him?

I'm sure there are other metrics (number of errors leading to a goal conceded, yellow/red cards, etc that can be used).

I mean, maybe it's my fault watching too much English football. Chelsea set the record for goals conceded under Mourinho and that translated into how we looked at Terry/Carvalho. United set the record a while ago for consecutive goals without conceded and that reflected positively on Vidic/Rio. So I don't know. Godin actually defends but apparently you can't credit him with this because of the system Atletico play. It's all confusing with Ramos
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Is it confusing or you just want to think it's confusing? Defensive minded Spain or defensive minded Real Madrid (last season) teams conceded very few goals.

A cattenaccio Atletico de Madrid team with Simeone as coach concedes very few goals. A team with Cech, Gallas, Terry, Carvalho, Ferreira, Makelele... and Mouriho as coach, will tend to concede few goals. The philosophy of those teams was to concede very few goals and use of their quality upfront to make the difference as often as possible.

A team that plays a high line with your left back (Marcelo) not tracking back and Ronaldo not defending will be way more exposed than those. The philosophy of 2014-2018 Madrid teams was to demolish rivals with the much superior offensive talent. If you score 1, we'll score 3, if you score 2, we'll score 5. And it worked.

The example of Cannavaro has been mentioned countless times.

It's so incredibly simple I just cannot understand what's so confusing here.




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adexkola said:
The correlation is much smaller than you're giving it credit for. Club appearances are all well and good, but the quality of performances over those appearances matter most. Trophy count is all good but those are team achievements.

Again, someone look at Pique's resume and tell me why he's not ranked higher than Ramos, if we are speaking about trophy count. Do I really need to compare Gerrard and O'Shea here?
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Disagree, to the contrary, especially in this case, the correlation is much closer. He's the captain of his club and country ffs. He's not some bit-part player, and never has been, who's just a passenger in the team reaping the rewards.

He's played almost every game for club and country, as one of the very first names on the team sheet since what 2005? Incredible player, regardless of these facts just by watching him regularly during that time he's consistently been amongst the best around.

Like every player he has the odd error in him, yellow cards, but absolutely nothing that remotely outweighs what he's brought to those teams. I'm sure 99% of Real Madrid fans would tell you the same.
 
GatoLoco said:
Is it confusing or you just want to think it's confusing? Defensive minded Spain or defensive minded Real Madrid (last season) teams conceded very few goals.

A cattenaccio Atletico de Madrid team with Simeone as coach concedes very few goals. A team with Cech, Gallas, Terry, Carvalho, Ferreira, Makelele... and Mouriho as coach, will tend to concede few goals. The philosophy of those teams was to concede very few goals and use of their quality upfront to make the difference as often as possible.

A team that plays a high line with your left back (Marcelo) not tracking back and Ronaldo not defending will be way more exposed than those. The philosophy of 2014-2018 Madrid teams was to demolish rivals with the much superior offensive talent. If you score 1, we'll score 3, if you score 2, we'll score 5. And it worked.

The example of Cannavaro has been mentioned countless times.

It's so incredibly simple I just cannot understand what's so confusing here.




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So in conclusion, there is no way to evaluate defenders based on their ability to defend because the primary factor is the team setup?

RUCK4444 said:
Disagree, to the contrary, especially in this case, the correlation is much closer. He's the captain of his club and country ffs. He's not some bit-part player, and never has been, who's just a passenger in the team reaping the rewards.

He's played almost every game for club and country, as one of the very first names on the team sheet since what 2005? Incredible player, regardless of these facts just by watching him regularly during that time he's consistently been amongst the best around.

Like every player he has the odd error in him, yellow cards, but absolutely nothing that remotely outweighs what he's brought to those teams. I'm sure 99% of Real Madrid fans would tell you the same.
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I'm not arguing he's not a great player (which is proof of me being open minded, ask any Real Madrid fan on here with a good memory)!

Reason why I don't think your reasoning is as strong: bar a couple of La Ligas in 2007/08, Real Madrid were not really a good team from Ramos joining them, up until about... 2011 under Mourinho when they made the CL semi-final (still only won the CDR, suffered the 5-0 humiliation). Up until then they perfected the art of exiting the CL stage at the last 16 (paved the way for Arsenal if you think about it). And they were little better in the league either, which was a bit removed back from the PL in terms of quality.

Kudos to Madrid and Ramos, since 2012 (with the La Liga title) and 2014 (La Decima) they kicked on and had amazing success. And yes he has had a long career, but given the fortunes of Madrid in that period, you see why I'm a bit more reluctant to accept that as a reason for his greatness? His goals scored and beard is reason enough
 
adexkola said:
I'm not arguing he's not a great player (which is proof of me being open minded, ask any Real Madrid fan on here with a good memory)!

Reason why I don't think your reasoning is as strong: bar a couple of La Ligas in 2007/08, Real Madrid were not really a good team from Ramos joining them, up until about... 2011 under Mourinho when they made the CL semi-final (still only won the CDR, suffered the 5-0 humiliation). Up until then they perfected the art of exiting the CL stage at the last 16 (paved the way for Arsenal if you think about it). And they were little better in the league either, which was a bit removed back from the PL in terms of quality.

Kudos to Madrid and Ramos, since 2012 (with the La Liga title) and 2014 (La Decima) they kicked on and had amazing success. And yes he has had a long career, but given the fortunes of Madrid in that period, you see why I'm a bit more reluctant to accept that as a reason for his greatness? His goals scored and beard is reason enough
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Yeah I'm all for debate and people view players differently at the end of the day. I just think in this instance it's hard to call the player overrated based on his achievements for club and country, the fact he's had multiple managers and they've all seen him for the player and leader he is within those sides.

He's been quite a unique player in my opinion, one that divides opinion, it's easy to hate him and that can sometimes cloud peoples judgement on him I feel. Personally I would have absolutely loved to have him at United, he brings such character and leadership which is something we've lacked for a long while and I believe is a major factor in our inconsistency.
 
adexkola said:
So in conclusion, there is no way to evaluate defenders based on their ability to defend because the primary factor is the team setup?
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I don't think that's my conclusion.

Maybe it's the same kind of conclusion happening when someone points out at some performances in a bunch of very highly competitive games, and someone else says the debate is being reduced to amount of silverware won :D
 
adexkola said:
So in conclusion, there is no way to evaluate defenders based on their ability to defend because the primary factor is the team setup?
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I think the conclusion is there's no way to evaluate a defender without looking at the team setup, and the specific challenges that come with it.

Part of it is not only looking at Ramos' errors and flaws, but also acknowledging how much he brought to a high-risk setup as a defender for many years, something his detractors rarely do. All the heroism/match-winning stuff then comes on top of that.
 
The fact this debate is still going on shows that, while he might not be over rated, he certainly divides opinion.

If you want someone who COULD win you a match then sure he will most likely be one of your first picks BUT his disciplinary issues and sometimes erratic decisions will certainly leave doubt in people.
 
Anyway, contract renewal-time.

Will he renew, and stay for the reminder of his career at RM, or will he take the higher offer that presumably PSG is willing to give him?
 


Nice Video.

I really like this guys videos. Keeps it short and simple, interesting but entertaining.
 
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