I dont think you can argue that. Barcelona considered selling Xavi to Chelsea and started van Bommel over him in a CL final. He was a good midfielder at that time but not the legendary midfielder he is consider now.But Barca pre-Pep was not that good. And Xavi arguably found a new level under Pep as he was about 28 when Pep came in.
He plays mostly on the left for City, this was his first year as a 10.There's a difference between saying he's not particularly good as a left winger and saying he's shit. Especially when England have a CF who likes to drop deep and are desperate for a flyer on the left to stretch the game.
Look at the squads and transfer funds he has had over those 16 years, winning only 3 with those teams and resources is a terrible return for a so called world class manager.Achieving a number of CL's only one manager has beaten in football history in just 16 years. Fraud. You sure proved your point.
It was the Cup Winners Cup not a European Cup (the predecessor to the CL).No he's not the greatest.
He's a great manager, I will give you that, but he's not the GOAT. For me, Fergie will always be that and not just because he's been our manager.
Fergie managed to take a shit club like Aberdeen to a European Cup.
Fergie managed to bring United up to the best club in the world when it was utter shite and getting its arse kicked by Liverpool for a decade.
Fergie never had or walked into a club that had unlimited resources and world class players. Everything he did was done from scratch.
Pep, on the other hand, has walked into top clubs from the start, Bayern, Barcelona, City, where funds and players have been there before he came.
Sure, he's done great while he's been there, but there's a world of difference between having the skills to take Aberdeen to a Euro Cup and prime Barca.
When Pep joins Kilmarnock or St. Mirror and wins a Euro cup, then I'll gladly admit he's the best. Until then, no chance.
Ah yes cause when Chelsea were spending crazy they were racking them up, same for PSG and this current £1bn United squad are rolling in them.Look at the squads and transfer funds he has had over those 16 years, winning only 3 with those teams and resources is a terrible return for a so called world class manager.
Sure, but it's a very different role than what is required for England.He plays mostly on the left for City, this was his first year as a 10.
The team that started the CL final in 2006Rejuvenating Barcelona by bringing in fresh blood and leading them to the highs they did is his greatest achievement but it's not as if they were useless, they had won the CL two years prior and reached the semi finals the year before, Spain had also won the euros that summer.
Bayern had won the treble the year he went there.
The only manager who has more CL than him won 3 with Madrid the greatest spending club of all time and 2 with heavy spending Milan the biggest spenders of the 80s 90s and early 2000sLook at the squads and transfer funds he has had over those 16 years, winning only 3 with those teams and resources is a terrible return for a so called world class manager.
And I give him credit for that.The team that started the CL final in 2006
Valdes
Oleguer Marquez Puyol VanBronckorst
VanBommel, Edmilson Deco
Guily Etoo Ronaldinho
Team that started 2009 final
Valdes
Puyol Toure Pique Sylvinho
Xavi Busquets Iniesta
Messi Etoo Henry
The bold are the only thing common in both starting 11. A completely different team
They just finished trophyless, 18points off the league winner. 12months later they won every trophy in football and were tagged the best club football side ever seenAnd I give him credit for that.
Barcelona however we're not shit either way before he came on.
Being the most spending club of all time has nothing to do with the squad a manager currently has at his disposal. Ancelotti has won his last two champions league with an excellent team, but also with a club that spent less money on transfers in the last decade than Leicester and Aston Villa, and obviously nowhere near City.The only manager who has more CL than him won 3 with Madrid the greatest spending club of all time and 2 with heavy spending Milan the biggest spenders of the 80s 90s and early 2000s
They ain't even gonna win free sex toy hand outs.They just finished trophyless, 18points off the league winner. 12months later they won every trophy in football and were tagged the best club football side ever seen
Like Enzo Maresca change Chelsea team and make them sextuple winners by next summer (Despite Chelsea winning the CL a few seasons ago)
They have spent less on transfers because of the prestige and status they hold that enables them to get the best players in the world on the cheap or at times for free, let alone the number of players who clearly show they are only going to one club. This baseline of power was built on what exactly if not being the highest spending club of all time breaking world record after world record for transfer fees? And pound for pound, the Real squad is better than the City squad, just like that legendary Milan squad in the mid '00s when you consider at the careers of those players outside Milan's eco system or the market value of the current Real players and what some of them have achieved outside their Real careers.Being the most spending club of all time has nothing to do with the squad a manager currently has at his disposal. Ancelotti has won his last two champions league with an excellent team, but also with a club that spent less money on transfers in the last decade than Leicester and Aston Villa, and obviously nowhere near City.
Xavi was great in Euro 2008 before managed by Pep.I dont think you can argue that. Barcelona considered selling Xavi to Chelsea and started van Bommel over him in a CL final. He was a good midfielder at that time but not the legendary midfielder he is consider now.
Xavi only became the great Xavi that we all remember since Pep became his manager.
That is easy when due to your prestige and power, players run down their contract to sign for you. The best player in the world Mbappe with a value of over 200m in the market for free, Sign Alaba for free, Sign Kroos for a huge discount, Get Rudiger for free, Cortouis on a huge discount while other clubs have to pay full price for similar talentsBeing the most spending club of all time has nothing to do with the squad a manager currently has at his disposal. Ancelotti has won his last two champions league with an excellent team, but also with a club that spent less money on transfers in the last decade than Leicester and Aston Villa, and obviously nowhere near City.
They have spent less on transfers because of the prestige and status they hold that enables them to get the best players in the world on the cheap or at times for free, let alone the number of players who clearly show they are only going to one club. This baseline of power was built on what exactly if not being the highest spending club of all time breaking world record after world record for transfer fees? And pound for pound, the Real squad is better than the City squad, just like that legendary Milan squad in the mid '00s when you consider at the careers of those players outside Milan's eco system or the market value of the current Real players and what some of them have achieved outside their Real careers.
I agree. Good examples, and that's without mentionning how they almost always get first dibs on the top young talents.That is easy when due to your prestige and power, players run down their contract to sign for you. The best player in the world Mbappe with a value of over 200m in the market for free, Sign Alaba for free, Sign Kroos for a huge discount, Get Rudiger for free, Cortouis on a huge discount while other clubs have to pay full price for similar talents
They have spent less on transfers because of the prestige and status they hold that enables them to get the best players in the world on the cheap or at times for free, let alone the number of players who clearly show they are only going to one club.
Not sure this holds up.That is easy when due to your prestige and power, players run down their contract to sign for you. The best player in the world Mbappe with a value of over 200m in the market for free, Sign Alaba for free, Sign Kroos for a huge discount, Get Rudiger for free, Cortouis on a huge discount while other clubs have to pay full price for similar talents
So still a European trophy. Picking straws here mate, blimy.It was the Cup Winners Cup not a European Cup (the predecessor to the CL).
He inherited one of the best squads in Europe at Barca with a spine of world class players in their prime like Messi, Iniesta, and Xavi then spend a whole load of money buying players like Dani Alves to stengthen them even more.They just finished trophyless, 18points off the league winner. 12months later they won every trophy in football and were tagged the best club football side ever seen
Like Enzo Maresca change Chelsea team and make them sextuple winners by next summer (Despite Chelsea winning the CL a few seasons ago)
Pep obviously did a good job with Barca, and was perfect to take over that team. However, what he inherited was a unique crop of excellent players coming up through the academy and Messi who was becoming the best player in the world, at a time when the Spain NT were really cementing their place at the top of world football. He made sure the players strengths were fully utilised by emphasising the tiki-taka approach which was endemic in the academy. He didn't make those players what they were though, and Barca were nowhere near as broken as people like to suggest before he took over. Barcelona established themselves as a major power again under Rijkaard. A bit like City, they were already challenging in Europe and winning leagues before Pep arrived. But people like to suggest they were nothing before he came in and turned water into wine.Xavi was great in Euro 2008 before managed by Pep.
Just being factually accurate. When you write Euro Cup or European Cup with both words capitalized it literally refers to the European Cup, the predecessor to the CL, not any European trophy in general and not the Cup Winners Cup in particular.So still a European trophy. Picking straws here mate, blimy.
That squad only became ne of the best in hindsight, In Summer 2008 Xavi was seen as a problem, too small and being shipped awayHe inherited one of the best squads in Europe at Barca with a spine of world class players in their prime like Messi, Iniesta, and Xavi then spend a whole load of money buying players like Dani Alves to stengthen them even more.
At FC Bayern he inherited the reigning European Champions and despite again being allowed to spent he took them backwards.
At City he inherited a team that had just reached the Champions League Semi Final and an unlimited transfer budget to spend and it still took him 5 attempts to get them to the final and 7 attempts to win it.
I don't think anyone has suggested that Barcelona were "nothing" before Pep Guardiola.A bit like City, they were already challenging in Europe and winning leagues before Pep arrived. But people like to suggest they were nothing before he came in and turned water into wine.
There's plenty of those insinuations throughout this thread.I don't think anyone has suggested that Barcelona were "nothing" before Pep Guardiola.
I said a Euro cup, because A. It was in Europe and B. It was a cup.Just being factually accurate. When you write Euro Cup or European Cup with both words capitalized it literally refers to the European Cup, the predecessor to the CL, not any European trophy in general and not the Cup Winners Cup in particular.
He won a Cup Winners Cup not a Euro Cup as you wrote.I said a Euro cup, because A. It was in Europe and B. It was a cup.
It doesn't take away from the fact that the point I was making is that Fergie won a "Euro Cup" with a tinpot team like Aberdeen. That's the real point here. Pep hasn't done that, which is why, for me, he's not the greatest manager of all time.
Capital letters, don't change this FACT*
* FACT: something that's true, despite capitalisation.
Xavi and Messi didn't start the 2006 CL final because of injuries. Xavi had just come back from a knee injury after 6 months and Messi was still hadn't recovered from the muscle injury picked up against ChelseaThe team that started the CL final in 2006
Valdes
Oleguer Marquez Puyol VanBronckorst
VanBommel, Edmilson Deco
Guily Etoo Ronaldinho
Team that started 2009 final
Valdes
Puyol Toure Pique Sylvinho
Xavi Busquets Iniesta
Messi Etoo Henry
The bold are the only thing common in both starting 11. A completely different team
Ancelotti was at high spending clubs all his career baring short stints in Regianna, Napoli and Everton, and only won 6 league titles.Look at the squads and transfer funds he has had over those 16 years, winning only 3 with those teams and resources is a terrible return for a so called world class manager.
