I think City would be disappointed not to have won more.
But it's unusual for any 'top side' to win more than 1 CL. In the 21st century it's only been done by Guardiola's Barcelona, Ancelotti's Milan, and Zidane's Real Madrid.
Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?
- Thread starter Irrational.
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I think City would be disappointed not to have won more.
But it's unusual for any 'top side' to win more than 1 CL. In the 21st century it's only been done by Guardiola's Barcelona, Ancelotti's Milan, and Zidane's Real Madrid.
That's the type of comment one makes when he has zero knowledge on the context. Pep was extremely unlucky with Bayern in the UCL.
2014-15 UCL semi-final against Barca
Robben, Ribery, Alaba all missed both legs, while Lewandowski played with a mask after breaking his jaw.
2015-16 UCL semi-final against Atletico
lost out on away goals to Atletico Madrid in the semi-finals after Thomas Muller's penalty miss and his team had 35 shots, 12 on target.
You know players also matter (just a little bit) along with the manager when teams win trophies.
It didn't take long to show that this was more indicative of the growing gulf between the biggest clubs and the rest though.
He’s the best I’ve ever seen for sure. I think quite simply, it’s ‘harder’ to dominate football in his way than almost all others. Most top teams set about trying to neutralise Barcelona with physical assets. Nobody could go toe-to-toe with the ball. In the PL, the initial perception was that the PL was too physical to succeed as he likes to play. He did. He won the league with Silva and De Bruyne in central midfield, without the left-back, whose absence Ten Hag has bemoaned all season and record numbers of points and goals.
The PL has always relied upon physical gaps to bridge technical shortfalls. It was probably thought that in football, you could never get the proportioning of technical to physical that he achieved with Barcelona. The team were all relatively short, with the exception of Busquets, not the most muscular, and none would win a straight line race with many of the top players elsewhere. If I’d never have seen Barcelona, I’d never have thought that to be possible. To be so much better than everyone else without this reliance on pace and strength.
He has adapted the City team to include a few security guards for his smaller guys over the years, but overall, I’d say he’s attained levels of play that other coaches of even top teams who spend huge money would have thought impossible, without the need for the pragmatic addition of players like Essien, Casemiro, Diarra, Gattuso and more that were seen to have been necessities to add balance by everyone other successful coach.
My honest view is that I’m grateful his time in the PL was post Fergie, as I doubt the great Fergie story ever gets written in this era of City. The small overlap they had on the continent prevented the perfect closing chapter for Fergie’s story as it is, stopping the CL dominance that would have probably unanimously cemented Fergie as the best ever. He ran into Guardiola’s machine from 09-11 and there was no solution to it. The thing is, I doubt he could have even spent his way to parity against that team either. The difference was a coaching one more than anything. We had Ronaldo, Rooney, Rio, Vidic, Tevez in their primes - even if we added any other players on the market, we wouldn’t have gotten close to that team.
The PL has always relied upon physical gaps to bridge technical shortfalls. It was probably thought that in football, you could never get the proportioning of technical to physical that he achieved with Barcelona. The team were all relatively short, with the exception of Busquets, not the most muscular, and none would win a straight line race with many of the top players elsewhere. If I’d never have seen Barcelona, I’d never have thought that to be possible. To be so much better than everyone else without this reliance on pace and strength.
He has adapted the City team to include a few security guards for his smaller guys over the years, but overall, I’d say he’s attained levels of play that other coaches of even top teams who spend huge money would have thought impossible, without the need for the pragmatic addition of players like Essien, Casemiro, Diarra, Gattuso and more that were seen to have been necessities to add balance by everyone other successful coach.
My honest view is that I’m grateful his time in the PL was post Fergie, as I doubt the great Fergie story ever gets written in this era of City. The small overlap they had on the continent prevented the perfect closing chapter for Fergie’s story as it is, stopping the CL dominance that would have probably unanimously cemented Fergie as the best ever. He ran into Guardiola’s machine from 09-11 and there was no solution to it. The thing is, I doubt he could have even spent his way to parity against that team either. The difference was a coaching one more than anything. We had Ronaldo, Rooney, Rio, Vidic, Tevez in their primes - even if we added any other players on the market, we wouldn’t have gotten close to that team.
No, and it's not even close.
Sir Alex won the treble with a largely homegrown squad while beating top class opposition along the way, both in the league and in Europe. Most importantly, he also did it without 115 charges of financial irregularity hanging over his head. If UEFA had any balls, Abu Dhabi FC shouldn't have even been in the competition the year they won their asterisk treble.
Sir Alex also beat Real Madrid in a European final with Aberdeen. If Lord Guardiola was in that position, he'd whine that he needs £500 million, Messi and a couple of offshore bank accounts for himself before he could win anything. Not that this would ever happen as we all know Saint Pep, savior and inventor of football, would never even consider a job like that in the first place.
Pep also said he'd leave City if the allegations were true - yet he's now changed his tune and said he would remain as manager no matter what. So, he's a liar. Shady allegations have followed him everywhere he goes (except Bayern) and not nearly enough is made of it in the media. Can you imagine the uproar if Sir Alex had serious accusations of bribing referees and financial doping leveled against him?
Pep is a slimy, cheating little weasel who isn't fit to lace Sir Alex's boots.
Sir Alex won the treble with a largely homegrown squad while beating top class opposition along the way, both in the league and in Europe. Most importantly, he also did it without 115 charges of financial irregularity hanging over his head. If UEFA had any balls, Abu Dhabi FC shouldn't have even been in the competition the year they won their asterisk treble.
Sir Alex also beat Real Madrid in a European final with Aberdeen. If Lord Guardiola was in that position, he'd whine that he needs £500 million, Messi and a couple of offshore bank accounts for himself before he could win anything. Not that this would ever happen as we all know Saint Pep, savior and inventor of football, would never even consider a job like that in the first place.
Pep also said he'd leave City if the allegations were true - yet he's now changed his tune and said he would remain as manager no matter what. So, he's a liar. Shady allegations have followed him everywhere he goes (except Bayern) and not nearly enough is made of it in the media. Can you imagine the uproar if Sir Alex had serious accusations of bribing referees and financial doping leveled against him?
Pep is a slimy, cheating little weasel who isn't fit to lace Sir Alex's boots.
Carlo just answered the question in the thread title by doing something Pep will never do.
3 more than SAF, does this make SAF half the manager Ancelotti is?
Most successful individual is not the right term... most successful manager, yes. Most successful individual is probably one of those players with six medals, or perhaps some director or whatever with multiple medals.
Ronaldo and Tevez weren't in their primes with us.
Ancelotti has 7 once you include his medals won as a player.
Good spot, they should put that in the caption.
Update: Perez now has seven medals as Real Madrid President.
Side note: Shouldn't Franco get a medal for all these wins?
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Ronaldo literally won the Ballon’Dor with United. 2x PL Player of the Year in a row. Record PL goalscoring season. I would say that counts. And Tevez was also starting his prime years.
He did, but he's got 5 seasons at Real at least where he was clearly better.
And Tevez was clearly better after he left United too.
He wasn’t clearly better at all. He was arguably better. His 46 goal season at United can be put alongside any, and to exclude a season where he was crowned the best player in the world from his peak years is a but ridiculous too.
And Tevez went to teams where he had a more important role than he had at United, but he was already at the peak of his powers here. City were not as good, and he went there and became the central figure and elevated them immediately (because he arrived at the peak of his powers). Juventus were also not the same force. The only difference was that he had Rooney and Ronaldo (and record signing Berbatov) to share the light with at United, but again, in 2008, he formed part of one of the best trios the PL has ever seen.
He was getting to his prime and left right before the bulk of his prime years. Also had that injury in his last season with United and missed a couple months, never really kicked off that final season. By time he got to Real he was at the top of his game or right on the cusp.
I think his prime clearly started 2 years before he joined Madrid. He was already established in a battle with Messi to be the best player in the world at that point, had won the Ballon D’Or and even in the last year you speak of, he won the PL Player of the Year. Because he scored 6 more pens or whatever in any given season at Madrid doesn’t mean he was on a different level for me.
He had a long run where he was one of the top two players in world football, and that started at United. I think it’s fair to call that his prime years. People can then split hairs and argue whether any particular season within that period was better than another - but they were all seasons where he had arrived as a proper world class player, not a potential one. I personally put his 07/08 season here as his best ever anyway.
I get where you are coming from. I'm from the mindset that a player can be the BPITW and not yet in his prime, example Ronaldo Luiz in 96 and 97 who never really reached that prime era due to injuries but was probably right there on the cusp around 98. But for me the prime years are in that 23-29 range, at least for most. So, yeah you could be right in that Ronaldo by 2007-08 was in just beginning his prime around 22/23 but I feel his prime was was ridiculous and lengthy that he hit like 2-3 additional prime levels.
You can't be serious.
You don't think Ronaldo improved as a player when he went to Madrid?
I notice that none of the players you mention are midfielders, which is where those finals were really won and lost.
If the referee had done his job in the semis then it would have been Chelsea we faced in 09 instead and they were hardly blown away by Barca considering they squeaked through on away goals with a last minute screamer from their first shot on target.
That Barca side was also a horrible bunch of cheats, up there with Mourinho's Porto and Simeone's Atletico in terms of antics and histrionics without even mentioning paying referees and a potential doping cover up. A truly detestable bunch(despite all that talent) that make the subsequent Madrid teams and fans seem genuinely likable in comparison.
Is this how you deal with losses against them?
No he's not the greatest.
He's a great manager, I will give you that, but he's not the GOAT. For me, Fergie will always be that and not just because he's been our manager.
Fergie managed to take a shit club like Aberdeen to a European Cup.
Fergie managed to bring United up to the best club in the world when it was utter shite and getting its arse kicked by Liverpool for a decade.
Fergie never had or walked into a club that had unlimited resources and world class players. Everything he did was done from scratch.
Pep, on the other hand, has walked into top clubs from the start, Bayern, Barcelona, City, where funds and players have been there before he came.
Sure, he's done great while he's been there, but there's a world of difference between having the skills to take Aberdeen to a Euro Cup and prime Barca.
When Pep joins Kilmarnock or St. Mirror and wins a Euro cup, then I'll gladly admit he's the best. Until then, no chance.
He's a great manager, I will give you that, but he's not the GOAT. For me, Fergie will always be that and not just because he's been our manager.
Fergie managed to take a shit club like Aberdeen to a European Cup.
Fergie managed to bring United up to the best club in the world when it was utter shite and getting its arse kicked by Liverpool for a decade.
Fergie never had or walked into a club that had unlimited resources and world class players. Everything he did was done from scratch.
Pep, on the other hand, has walked into top clubs from the start, Bayern, Barcelona, City, where funds and players have been there before he came.
Sure, he's done great while he's been there, but there's a world of difference between having the skills to take Aberdeen to a Euro Cup and prime Barca.
When Pep joins Kilmarnock or St. Mirror and wins a Euro cup, then I'll gladly admit he's the best. Until then, no chance.
Seeing how underwhelming City players in general are with their NT, does this reflect positively on Guardiola?
Not necessarily. If you want to be critical of him you can argue that he sets roles so tight and detailed for his players that they lack the flexibility to operate in different setups.
That's not his problem, but problem of his players.
This is a Manchester United forum so i get that praising Pep or City players is not done on here. But one thing is quite funny.
One of the things said about Pep is that he only picks clubs with the best players and that is why he wins.
Then when City players who have been very special in the league (Foden and Bernardo) dont even look 10% of the player they are at City. Those players are 'overrated', not actually that good and cant function without Pep.
It works because that way Pep and City players can both be called shit
One of the things said about Pep is that he only picks clubs with the best players and that is why he wins.
Then when City players who have been very special in the league (Foden and Bernardo) dont even look 10% of the player they are at City. Those players are 'overrated', not actually that good and cant function without Pep.
It works because that way Pep and City players can both be called shit
This only applies to His city team، His barca and Bayern teams were full of international stats.This is a Manchester United forum so i get that praising Pep or City players is not done on here. But one thing is quite funny.
One of the things said about Pep is that he only picks clubs with the best players and that is why he wins.
Then when City players who have been very special in the league (Foden and Bernardo) dont even look 10% of the player they are at City. Those players are 'overrated', not actually that good and cant function without Pep.
It works because that way Pep and City players can both be called shit
But Barca pre-Pep was not that good. And Xavi arguably found a new level under Pep as he was about 28 when Pep came in.
Wonder how many Pep will have by the time he’s 65
Probably as many as he has now unless he can find another club that will give him a top quality squad, an unlimited budget to buy more players, and 7 goes at it like he had at City.
Probably 6 then
This is a Manchester United forum so i get that praising Pep or City players is not done on here. But one thing is quite funny.
One of the things said about Pep is that he only picks clubs with the best players and that is why he wins.
Then when City players who have been very special in the league (Foden and Bernardo) dont even look 10% of the player they are at City. Those players are 'overrated', not actually that good and cant function without Pep.
It works because that way Pep and City players can both be called shit
It’s probably a shock to the system for the players when they’re not in a cherry-picked star studded squad, and have to think for themselves for a change.
He has won 3 in 16 years
During the season: All he does is buy stars, any coach can do the same with these players
After season : These players are useless without Pep, Pep is making them better than they are
After season : These players are useless without Pep, Pep is making them better than they are
This is a Manchester United forum so i get that praising Pep or City players is not done on here. But one thing is quite funny.
One of the things said about Pep is that he only picks clubs with the best players and that is why he wins.
Then when City players who have been very special in the league (Foden and Bernardo) dont even look 10% of the player they are at City. Those players are 'overrated', not actually that good and cant function without Pep.
It works because that way Pep and City players can both be called shit
Who calls city's players shit? They have 20 of the best players in the league.
A lot of them perform shit for their countries at the moment. Not all of them but still a lot.
Foden during the England game. Overrated and only looks good because of City system according to some.
Rejuvenating Barcelona by bringing in fresh blood and leading them to the highs they did is his greatest achievement but it's not as if they were useless, they had won the CL two years prior and reached the semi finals the year before, Spain had also won the euros that summer.
Bayern had won the treble the year he went there.
Achieving a number of CL's only one manager has beaten in football history in just 16 years. Fraud. You sure proved your point.
There's a difference between saying he's not particularly good as a left winger and saying he's shit. Especially when England have a CF who likes to drop deep and are desperate for a flyer on the left to stretch the game.