Is our squad average?

[Hammondo]

No. Still have a few players that need offloading asap, but by and large we've a squad that should be comfortably 4th.

I think that's head in the clouds thinking. I don't see how you can claim that tbh.

 

[Shark]

I think that's head in the clouds thinking. I don't see how you can claim that tbh.

Our form since ETH has been relieved of his duties is more in line with what we should see long term. Despite being absolutely gash previously we're a mere 4 points away. Not an outlandish claim. I'll retract the "comfortably" part, but we should be making a really good stab at it.

 

[Hammondo]

Our form since ETH has been relieved of his duties is more in line with what we should see long term. Despite being absolutely gash we're a mere 4 points away. Not an outlandish claim. I'll retract the "comfortably" part, but we should be making a really good stab at it.

We have not played well though, we beat 2 poor teams, without playing well in any match, and we drew against Chelsea who played better than us.

And you think that shows top 4? Looking at the table I would say that shows top 10.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Our form since ETH has been relieved of his duties is more in line with what we should see long term. Despite being absolutely gash previously we're a mere 4 points away. Not an outlandish claim. I'll retract the "comfortably" part, but we should be making a really good stab at it.

I’m really not sure. We’ve not played particularly well. Underlying stats for these games gives me little hope we can push into the top four and opposition has been average in 3/4 games.

 

[redzombie]

we have a good squad, just completely bereft of confidence

 

[NZT-One]

We have not played well though, we beat 2 poor teams, without playing well in any match, and we drew against Chelsea who played better than us.

And you think that shows top 4? Looking at the table I would say that shows top 10.

I agree here. At this point, I really think different people have vastly different understandings of the terms "form", "quality", "standard", "result" and "performance". Because from my point of view, we haven't seen anything different in the last few games - the same football but with Casemiro AND Ugarte in there and with better results.

 

[Malons]

I agree here. At this point, I really think different people have vastly different understandings of the terms "form", "quality", "standard", "result" and "performance". Because from my point of view, we haven't seen anything different in the last few games - the same football but with Casemiro AND Ugarte in there and with better results.

Yeah but who knew having a midfield was important?

 

[NZT-One]

Yeah but who knew having a midfield was important?

Well I am fairly sure many people know but there are enough teams out there who do quite fine without two players like Casemiro and Ugarte in their midfield. It is fine as a first bandaid but it also isn't going to cut it moving forward. At least if we really attempt to get back to the first row.

 

[Flying high]

I thought at the start of the season we'd be comfortably top 4. Even with all our forwards being really poor so far, I still think we should be 4th by the end of the season. Our defence is good with deep cover. Our Midfield has some really good options, even if finding a balance has taken too long. I thought Hojlund would kick on this year but the lack of service is only half the problem there.

When I look at our squad I no longer see loads of players that aren't good enough. We have some coming to the end of their careers, and some younger players who may never reach the heights required for this club. But all are worth their place in the squad for now. Rashford being the clear exception. A player who should be in his prime but simply not delivering for far too long. So a new forward is essential. A quick one. Preferably can play centrally and wide.

So I am optomistic about the squad. I think it does have some decent depth and balance about it. Add some quality up front and replace Eriksen and Casemiro well and we could be challenging again in the next year or two.

 

[Shark]

I agree here. At this point, I really think different people have vastly different understandings of the terms "form", "quality", "standard", "result" and "performance". Because from my point of view, we haven't seen anything different in the last few games - the same football but with Casemiro AND Ugarte in there and with better results.

So it's different, but you're saying it's pretty much the same. How does that work out? It's a results business and we're actually getting them now, as opposed to sticking with a manger who was substantially holding us back from getting results. The standards have been so damningly low that I think a lot of fans are being overly critical of what this squad could be capable of.

 

[demetre]

Average, nothing else. While hard to define what "average" in this sense but i think teams which are just good enough to finish between 7-14th places are average.

1. Goalkeepers. Onana is good, but... Fantastic saves and silly mistakes. Unreliable. The rest, i don't know.
2. Defenders. Bang average. We've got de Ligt who failed in Turin, failed in Munich, his value and performance is in constant decline since the age of 20. He isn't aggressive enough, slow, nowhere near as good as the top defenders in the PL. Martinez could be good, but very injury prone. Mazraoui and Dalot are okay, but wouldn't be a starter in a top3 team in any of the top competitions in Europe. Maybe in France, but i never considered Ligue 1 as a top competition. Yoro, we'll see. Tells a lot about the strength of our defense that sometimes Evans is the best of them. And of course we've got the mighty Maguire. Awful. Shaw, Malacia, Lindelöf. I don't even want to mention them. Unnecessary.
3. Midfield. Casemiro is well over his prime, so is Eriksen. Ugarte is good in defensive play but has no idea about forward passes, no creativity. There's a reason why he couldn't get enough playtime in Paris. Bruno. I think he is the only player in the squad who could be a starter in almost all of the top teams. By far our best player, but seems tired of fighing in an average squad under clueless managers. Still, under Amorim he could be our talisman. Mainoo... Pains me to say but seems like the magic is over, after a bright start now he became an average midfielder, i hope Amorim will revive his career. Mount, hard to judge as he is way too injury prone. Average midfield.
4. Attackers. By far the worst part of our squad. Antony is the worst joke in PL history. Rashford is a spoilt brat, a mental wreck, unreliable, mediocre at best, should go. Garnacho... He has potential but i'm not sure if he is top team material. Maybe Newcastle, Aston Villa level. Zirkzee... One of the worst, totally pointless signings. That guy couldn't hit the ocean from a boat, slow, bad in one on one situations. Just bad. Diallo is our best at the moment but that tells a lot. He has his moments but definitely not top club material. A perfect backup winger for 20-25 minutes. Hojlund. He's got serious potential. Fast, strong, tall, and has skills too. Unfortunately he has zero support, literally. So our attackers are way below average, hance the ridiculous 9 goals we scored.

And the worst thing is, our squad worth -on paper- is around 850 million. The real value could be less than half of this i guess.

I swear there's some anti-de Ligt propaganda going on. I hear this nonsense from so many people. At least you didn’t add the part about him being "benched by Dier."

1. He was absolutely fine at Juve, which is why he moved to a better team, Bayern Munich, who paid 70 million for his services.
2. He was Bayern's best defender over his two years there and even made the Bundesliga Team of the Season. Fans were even signing petitions for him to stay.

Any negativity towards him can be explained by the extraordinarily high expectations he didn’t quite meet, I understand that. But he’s still a great defender and is showing it here, too.

Oh and labeling Mainoo as an average midfielder after, what, five games into his sophomore year? Come on man

 

[NZT-One]

So it's different, but you're saying it's pretty much the same. How does that work out?

It is the same football. Just with slightly different players. We haven't improved anything, we still offer chances to the opponents and we still are fairly bad in generating ones for us. This isn't even criticism, Ruud didn't have the time to change things. I just find it odd that people talk about us turning form. FFS, look at todays "result" - our goals were an own goal and two efforts with a combined xG of 0.06. There wasn't much to be really happy about because if that game is played again, the odds might change considerable.

It's a results business and we're actually getting them now, as opposed to sticking with a manger who was substantially holding us back from getting results. The standards have been so damningly low that I think a lot of fans are being overly critical of what this squad could be capable of.

Not sure what we are getting at here. I agree with you, the manager was a problem from a certain point onwards. But the players are a problem just as well. Plus as I have alluded to, some fans differentiate between result and performance. If that doesn't apply to you, thats fine, nothing wrong with that either. But in a low scoring game like football, results aren't giving you all too much in terms of insight, performance can provide with more. Pretty sure thats nothing you would argue against, wouldn't you?

 

[Shark]

It is the same football. Just with slightly different players. We haven't improved anything, we still offer chances to the opponents and we still are fairly bad in generating ones for us. This isn't even criticism, Ruud didn't have the time to change things. I just find it odd that people talk about us turning form. FFS, look at todays "result" - our goals were an own goal and two efforts with a combined xG of 0.06. There wasn't much to be really happy about because if that game is played again, the odds might change considerable.

Not sure what we are getting at here. I agree with you, the manager was a problem from a certain point onwards. But the players are a problem just as well. Plus as I have alluded to, some fans differentiate between result and performance. If that doesn't apply to you, thats fine, nothing wrong with that either. But in a low scoring game like football, results aren't giving you all too much in terms of insight, performance can provide with more. Pretty sure thats nothing you would argue against, wouldn't you?

This bolded part is just rubbish, really. You honestly think Leicester might get a result of the match is played again? Obviously performances have improved. Our star DM signing in the summer Ugarte had the most interceptions of a United player in God knows how long. Bruno is looking like a player again. Amad is thriving from not having a manager with embarrassing judgement. There's a host of improvements which are leading to positive results. Just because the club has been dragged through the mud the past year and a half doesn't mean this squad isn't capable of a top four finish.

 

[NZT-One]

This bolded part is just rubbish, really. You honestly think Leicester might get a result of the match is played again?

Well I didn't say it was a close game or a fifty fifty. But if we play that match 10 times, there is a good chance that it ends with goalless draws more often than not.

Obviously performances have improved. Our star DM signing in the summer Ugarte had the most interceptions of a United player in God knows how long.

Great. That is awesome. Just fyi - thats us catching up with the other teams in the league. Not us getting the upper hand.

Bruno is looking like a player again. Amad is thriving from not having a manager with embarrassing judgement. There's a host of improvements which are leading to positive results.

I guess that stuff is subjective but I don't know what you are talking about. Feels like people were so adamant about ETH, that they are now so desperate to see change that they do. Wouldn't be the first time, was the same with Ole. Through 3 years... And it was the same in ETHs first season.

Just because the club has been dragged through the mud the past year and a half doesn't mean this squad isn't capable of a top four finish.

Honestly mate... Just watch different teams from time to time. I watched Brighton against City yesterday, this looks almost like a different sport. Even the Pool game yesterday was different - the intensity that is there on display would have you guys creaming for half a week. I am happy that you are hopeful and optimistic, why not, great attitude. But there is just nothing to suggest, that this team is capable of top four - look at what people are fawning over: Shaw from 3 years ago, Rashford from 2 years ago. Bruno from 3 years ago. Martinez best ball playing CB in the league (better not watch Konsa or van Hecke), Dalot best RB in the league... It is fine to be hopeful but lets not act as if thats the only and therefor the right way to see things.

The tactics we deployed surely made us look worse than we are. And maybe different tactics fall into place and it clicks really fast. But that isn't something we should expect out of thin air.

 

[Glorio]

No - we just have a very young and thus inconsistent attack. The rest of the squad stacks up really well against most teams. Unfortunately the only senior attacker we have has mentally checked out for years for whatever reason.

 

[e.cantona]

This squad should be fighting for top four. Third spot should be the aim. Get a left back, midfielder and attacker in before next season and we should start thinking of top spot. Still hard to make up an opinion on Onana.

 

[Rooney25]

Squad is not good enough for top 4

We need a quality striker and a proper left back

 

[RedFanaticTattooist]

1. He was absolutely fine at Juve, which is why he moved to a better team, Bayern Munich, who paid 70 million for his services.
2. He was Bayern's best defender over his two years there and even made the Bundesliga Team of the Season. Fans were even signing petitions for him to stay.

He wasn't fine in Turin, not even close. He was slow, made silly mistakes, couldn't keep his concentration for 90 minutes. I know, i watched several Juve matches. That's why Juve sold him 20 million euro cheaper than the sum they bought him for. In Munich he had a decent season before he failed again and was being sold for more than 20 million euros cheaper than they bought him for. A the age of 20 he was the world's most expensive centre back, at the age of 25 he has average value. Juve paid 85 million for him and three years later sold him for 67 million. Three years. Do you think they decide to loose 18 million and get rid if him just because de Ligt was good? Nonsense. Bayern paid 67 million for him, and TWO years later they sold him 22 million euro cheaper. Do you think they decide to loose 22 million and get rid if him just because de Ligt was good? Nonsense. His first season was okay but the second was bad. So, in 5 years his value went down from 85 to 45 euros. You probably did not read the news, interviews but Max Eberl, the sport director of Bayern Munich stated in an interview that they were actually HAPPY to sell him as he isn't aggressive enough on the pitch, fell down in the pecking order as they prefer Kim and Upamecano instead. And you probably did not read what Rio Ferdinand said about him. He wasn't happy about de Ligt for exactly the same reason, the guy's value and performance is in constant decline since the age of 20. A classy player's value between 20-25 years should increase constantly, not decrease. Maybe not the best exapmle, but for instance Vini jr's value was 50 million at the age of 20, four years later it's 200 million. Well, he is definitely better than Lindelöf or Maguire so in this sense he was a good singing but still not a top team level. At least not yet, i hope ha's gonna improve under Amorim. Let's see.

 

[Nogbadthebad]

We don't have enough goals for a top 4 team, but the squad is better than average other than that.

Having a quality, proven striker is essential right now, not just to give a chance to get that top 4, but because if we do not, we will destroy rasmus's career before it gets going.

He has potential, but the worst thing for him is starting every week when he is out of his depth. He deserves better, and so do we.

 

[Krakenzero]

Top 6 GK
Top 4 defensive line
Top half, maybe top 8 midfield
Bottom half, maybe bottom 6 attacking line

If United get a good LB they'll have more of less settled 7-8 main squad players in order to fight for top 4, with the 3 guys up front being the biggest issue.

 

[demetre]

He wasn't fine in Turin, not even close. He was slow, made silly mistakes, couldn't keep his concentration for 90 minutes. I know, i watched several Juve matches. That's why Juve sold him 20 million euro cheaper than the sum they bought him for. In Munich he had a decent season before he failed again and was being sold for more than 20 million euros cheaper than they bought him for. A the age of 20 he was the world's most expensive centre back, at the age of 25 he has average value. Juve paid 85 million for him and three years later sold him for 67 million. Three years. Do you think they decide to loose 18 million and get rid if him just because de Ligt was good? Nonsense. Bayern paid 67 million for him, and TWO years later they sold him 22 million euro cheaper. Do you think they decide to loose 22 million and get rid if him just because de Ligt was good? Nonsense. His first season was okay but the second was bad. So, in 5 years his value went down from 85 to 45 euros. You probably did not read the news, interviews but Max Eberl, the sport director of Bayern Munich stated in an interview that they were actually HAPPY to sell him as he isn't aggressive enough on the pitch, fell down in the pecking order as they prefer Kim and Upamecano instead. And you probably did not read what Rio Ferdinand said about him. He wasn't happy about de Ligt for exactly the same reason, the guy's value and performance is in constant decline since the age of 20. A classy player's value between 20-25 years should increase constantly, not decrease. Maybe not the best exapmle, but for instance Vini jr's value was 50 million at the age of 20, four years later it's 200 million. Well, he is definitely better than Lindelöf or Maguire so in this sense he was a good singing but still not a top team level. At least not yet, i hope ha's gonna improve under Amorim. Let's see.

You’re confusing unfulfilled potential with not being good enough.

Juve paid an insane amount for his potential and gave him a hefty contract. That investment only makes sense if he becomes one of the best defenders in the world -- which he hasn’t. He's not the new Beckenbauer or anything like that. Still he was good enough to attract Bayern’s interest, who paid a lot for him. Would they have paid €67 million for a failure? And his second season was not bad, he was just injured a lot. When he was fit he started almost every game.

I had to make this decision because we also had to sell players. We felt more comfortable with Upamecano and Kim because they can defend higher up the pitch. And then an offer came in for de Ligt

These are the words of Bayern’s sporting director, I assume?

So they sold him because:
1) they had to sell someone to balance the books
2) They felt Upamecano and Kim better suit the new manager
3) There was an offer for de Ligt unlike the other two

Nothing from that make him a failure or not good enough. It's an open question, if the other two are better than de Ligt. I don't think so. We're not the only club who make wrong decisions, but time will tell.

 

[Bruno8]

Its not clear whether its the players or coaches or pressure to paly for United but our general play is way below average. We are hardly entertaining save for a few moments of individual brilliance.

If you watch Brighton /Brentford/Southampton they play some very good football for long periods of their games despite eventually losing their games

 

[JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo]

We have a great squad, but lack of experience in the forward line. Don't press together, dont track back, don't find the passes, shoot when the shot isn't on, make a run at the wrong time, unable to hold up the ball etc

the lack of accountability under Ten Hag has stifled a lot of their growth. I hope Amorim can rectify that because if the attack fires we will be in the top 4 by end of season.

 

[RedFanaticTattooist]

Nothing from that make him a failure or not good enough. It's an open question, if the other two are better than de Ligt. I don't think so. We're not the only club who make wrong decisions, but time will tell.

You wrote a whole novel about a simple situation. He wasn't good enough that's it. Do you know what happens when a player is good enough? His club will not sell him after 2-3 years but will offer him a contract extension. This happened to many players, also at Bayern and Juve.

"1) they had to sell someone to balance the books". Of course, and why did they sell him? Because he was actually expendable, they did not need him. They could've sold other players too but they haven't.
"2)They felt Upamecano and Kim better suit the new manager.". Well, it shows how limited de Ligt's capabilities are. He simly cannot play the modern centre back's role.
"3) There was an offer for de Ligt unlike the other two.". Wrong. They stated in Munich that they are willing to sell de Ligt but not the other two and Bayern is in a really good financial situation so they don't have to sell anyone if they don't want to. That's why he ended up in Manchester, and the truth is (if the news are right) that no other club wanted to sign de Ligt. Or at least not for 45 million. Which is scary to say the least.

 

[Bastian]

I've seen a lot of this take since Amorim was appointed: we've got a really good squad just need proper coaching and we'll easily be top 4 (or challenging).

I think we're far from that. Even with a top coach. Midfield is the same concern it has always been, bar maybe that brief early spell under Ole with Matic, Pogba and Herrera. We've got one reliable quality full back. 3 prospects up front and nothing else to write home about.

If I could have written the script for this season it would be Ruud staying in situ until June, with Amorim finishing the season with Sporting. Finishing outside the European places and going into next season with a much thinner squad, clearing out all the high earners and the non-performers.

It'll be more difficult to make the required changes if we're in the Europa next season. If we're in the CL (which would be some feat) I'll have no complaints, but it'll still likely be a slower building process.

 

[Godfather]

We have assembled a distinctly average squad with an enormous amount of money. Doesn't mean EtH shouldn't have done way better than he has but feck me we have some crap in the squad and everytime we manage to get rid off one or two we somehow manage to replace them with even worse (see Zirkzee)

 

[Overhaul FC]

So it was the players attitude and lack of ability after all.... And not Ten Hag, or Rangnick, or Ole, or Jose....

 

[Chip]

Yes. It’s an incredible feat to spend as much money and end up with a squad as average as ours.

Especially the lack of goal threat and creatively from our attackers is baffling. Bar Bruno Fernandes we have no reliable output - and even he does not produce what did a while back.

 

[TheRedHearted]

I think we're far from that. Even with a top coach. Midfield is the same concern it has always been, bar maybe that brief early spell under Ole with Matic, Pogba and Herrera. We've got one reliable quality full back. 3 prospects up front and nothing else to write home about.



It'll be more difficult to make the required changes if we're in the Europa next season. If we're in the CL (which would be some feat) I'll have no complaints, but it'll still likely be a slower building process.

our midfield is very underwhelming, and for years it’s been way too slow. With Mainoo and Ugarte we have some promise, but Casemiro, Eriksen will be off, Casemiro if he continues his better form we can definitely sell him off. and Bruno- still has these incredible numbers over all that maybe he can be useful right under the two.

The midfield signings are so important as all moving forward.

I think if we get into CL it’ll be about our players playing fantastic and we can sell a decent amount of them while attracting younger better options

We have assembled a distinctly average squad with an enormous amount of money. Doesn't mean EtH shouldn't have done way better than he has but feck me we have some crap in the squad and everytime we manage to get rid off one or two we somehow manage to replace them with even worse (see Zirkzee)

Ineos have to step up and we have to stop making stop gap and decent signings.

 

[Adisa]

How come other teams can buy good players but we can’t?

 

[NZT-One]

I've seen a lot of this take since Amorim was appointed: we've got a really good squad just need proper coaching and we'll easily be top 4 (or challenging).

I think we're far from that. Even with a top coach. Midfield is the same concern it has always been, bar maybe that brief early spell under Ole with Matic, Pogba and Herrera. We've got one reliable quality full back. 3 prospects up front and nothing else to write home about.

If I could have written the script for this season it would be Ruud staying in situ until June, with Amorim finishing the season with Sporting. Finishing outside the European places and going into next season with a much thinner squad, clearing out all the high earners and the non-performers.

It'll be more difficult to make the required changes if we're in the Europa next season. If we're in the CL (which would be some feat) I'll have no complaints, but it'll still likely be a slower building process.

While understandable, I think the worst thing we can do is to overestimate the performance today, probably even the 3 next ones as well. Amorim decided to change things up, which is something I respect a lot (if he fails, he at least fails with his plan A), so the players, on top of all the aspects in term of what they can do and what not, now also have to come up with playing a different system. Same as Dortmunds or Brightons systems have made their players look better than they are, I think our players might suffer from the opposite. Don't get me wrong, we have shared opinions on this questions and I am critical since ages, even towards some of fan favorites around here. Lets give them time to understand their roles, give Amorim the chance to figure our, how to adapt and which players can give him what capability. It is safe to say that there is noone in the squad, who shouldn't be questioned to varying degrees. None of them, maybe bar Mainoo and Garnacho is above all questions on whether they should be part of Uniteds future.

So it was the players attitude and lack of ability after all.... And not Ten Hag, or Rangnick, or Ole, or Jose....

Thats just wrong. How on earth do you come up with the idea that we have an either-or-situation here?

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Average to poor.

 

[NZT-One]

How come other teams can buy good players but we can’t?

I think, a major part in this plays the idea that players should be merely measured in a scale of good and bad. Other teams look for skillsets and choose players whose skillsets fit a certain role description. Its a damn shame, that United didn't seem to get this memo for last like 15 years but hopefully, we'll turn a corner with more competent people running the show now.