Is our squad average?

[Alex99]

We will continue to disagree.

You feel the players are the problem and I think the system is the bigger problem.

We can have xG wars all we like, Bruno was actually very prolific, a few season ago, along with Rashford. So you feel they have forgotten to finish.

We dont create enough chances for our players on a consistent basis. I think with a better coached system, we score alot more goals, I know you disagree with this but that is my opinion.

The players are clearly part of the problem. Rashford's best goal return is 17 goals, which isn't really that impressive. The rest of our attackers have never even hit double figures. Fernandes' numbers have always been boosted by penalties. Scoring 18 goals four seasons ago is neither here nor there for me. Charlie Austin once scored 18 for a QPR side that finished bottom of the table.

None of this to say that I don't also think a better system will help, because obviously it will, but based on what we've seen so far from the players at our disposal, a better system is only going to get us so far without the players also stepping up.

Again, I also literally just pointed out that bottom half teams do have players capable of scoring 10+ goals.

 

[lex talionis]

Average compared to the other 19 PL clubs? This United side is certainly better than at least 10 of the other PL clubs. On a man for man basis I would rate it 5 or 6th best at worst with City, Liverpool and Arsenal better than United on a man for man basis. Villa, Chelsea, Spurs, Newcastle maybe right there with us.

But if there is a club anywhere in Europe that gets less out of its players that it has than United I would like to know the name of this club.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Average squads can win the league though. If they are coached well and, crucially, put together according to a plan. MUFC has not recruited according to a playing style. Even the purchase of Ugarte was contrary to ETH's preferred style and in retrospect was a clear indicator that he was already for the chop.

They can, but they also need a wide player with tremendous ability in isolation plays and a striker with a killer's instinct. Plus, a manager able to get the momentum going while keeping it simple. Mahrez/Vardy under Ranieri or Hazard/Costa in Conte's first season. We lack either of them.

 

[Alex99]

Average compared to the other 19 PL clubs? This United side is certainly better than at least 10 of the other PL clubs. On a man for man basis I would rate it 5 or 6th best at worst with City, Liverpool and Arsenal better than United on a man for man basis. Villa, Chelsea, Spurs, Newcastle maybe right there with us.

But if there is a club anywhere in Europe that gets less out of its players that it has than United I would like to know the name of this club.

"5th or 6th at worst"

"here's 3 clubs with squads definitely better than ours, and 4 more similar in quality to us"

Would that not make us 8th "at worst"?

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Who says Amorim can't develop them?

Maybe he can, who knows? But, historically, about half of the transfers in football are successful and very few youngsters mature to become world-class players. Believing that you have the next class of 92 in your hands or thinking that the manager's job is to turn every youngster into a top performer is just setting up Amorim for failure.

 

[Lentwood]

Sir Alex didn’t do the coaching though. He left it to McClaren, Phelan, Meulensteen and Quieroz etc…. So really the question of coaching is are LVG/Jose/Ole etc better than those coaches?
There again, did Moyes, LVG, Jose, Ole and ETH do training themselves or did they delegate to their assistants and coaching staff? Should we really be questioning Giggs, P Neville, Rui Faria, Carrick and McKenna etc? The later two have been debated to death and largely proved everyone wrong when they’ve stepped away from United and gone out on their own.
Let’s be fair here, Moyes was a relative success at Everton before and I would argue a roaring success at WH since (he won a European competition - look where they are now they have a ‘better’ head coach in Lopetegui) I think you can argue he is a good coach. In different circumstances he could have been a good coach for United, had he not made a handful of fatal mistakes.
LVG being near retirement is neither here or there really. He held a very impressive CV, had a wealth of experience and knowledge, and he is one of the games most decorated coaches. He knew what he was doing, but still came up short.
I also don’t think coaching was Jose’s downfall. His issue has always been man management, rubbing people up the wrong way and demotivating players. He likes to foster a siege mentality which is a somewhat antiquated approach, and when Faria left and he was unchecked he seemed to have that siege mentality himself against those around him at the club. He isolated key players and filled the dressing room with a toxic negativity.
I could go on about Ole and Erik too, but I’m wary of tl;dr-ing this post. It’s a long assed way of explaining I think that coaching hasn’t been the problem per se, and that a player must be receptive to that coaching for it to be successful. If our players don’t or can’t carry out their instructions as coached it really doesn’t matter who the coach is.

I'm talking about whether those coaches could coach modern tactics and systems into our players though.

Jose is a legend, one of the best coaches of all-time...but he last had a new idea in about 2004!

LVG likewise...fantastic, innovate coach in his time...which was about 20 years ago!

For me, you can go round and round in this debate...but when you can't do the absolute basics right, like rest defence shape, where the defensive line is held, set pieces, pressing triggers etc...that's on the coach for me, not the players.

 

[Valuedrug]

On form it certainly is. If not below average even.

There is a core of young, talented players to build on in my opinion, even if I can see how others might disagree with that. I personally rate a player like Højlund for instance, and I expect him to flourish in Amorims system. If we don't have any backups to take some of the pressure off him and avoid more injuries though, maybe he doesn't. Like all of our other prospects there are basically as many question marks about him as there are certainties.

Can Garnacho develop the passing and decision making to be a top player?

Will Kobbie develop physically and can he contribute enough progression to warrant being a starter for an elite side?

Is Yoro actually the level of talent we paid for and how will he respond to the pressure once he is fit?

At the moment we don't have any outstanding players at all I think, and none of the known quantities in the squad feels likely to assume that role either. Consistent, high performing players with a real ceiling to their game, the type of player the others can look to for on-pitch leadership in a tough spot. Bruno is probably the best bet here, but I think his profile is just too limited. I want to say Rashford still, but it feels more like a prayer than a prospect by now. And we have a lot of mediocrity on form as well as talent for me. Like oodles of it.

We have to hope that Amorim can be a proper game changer in terms of collective belief and that form will flow from it. If that happens, we could maybe squeeze into the top six and be a cup challenger on the current talent pool. I want to put the potential higher than that, but it just seems like the other contenders have developed their squads by a larger margin than us over the last 2-3 seasons. With teams like Chelsea, Spurs and Villa it does feel like there is room for a lot of variation in outcomes, but we would have to quickly find form with Amorim for that to happen in my opinion.

Then again, when I look up Liverpools squad in the season that Klopp took over it doesn't look too exciting either. He started building belief and a promising playstyle quickly though in tandem with a solid recruitment strategy from the club. And all the right metrics start rising. Still, it's not until three years later that they're neck and neck with City.

Perhaps it really will all come together in time for the anniversary!

 

[devilish]

Its funny right. Blame the manager, want him sacked.. gets sacked then the same people will say the players are not good enough.

It cant be both, if the manager was so bad, means he didnt coach well or the players were so bad he couldnt get them to play,.

Either way, you cant want to call for a managers head if you feel the squad is that bad.

Personally, I think our squad is more than good enough to get top 4.

Both things can be true (average manager and average players), especially since the former had signed a big chunk of the latter

 

[tomaldinho1]

Maybe he can, who knows? But, historically, about half of the transfers in football are successful and very few youngsters mature to become world-class players. Believing that you have the next class of 92 in your hands or thinking that the manager's job is to turn every youngster into a top performer is just setting up Amorim for failure.

Who has said we have a class of 92 on our hands? What is undeniable is we have a large % of promising youngsters, and much more reliance on younger attackers than almost all other teams. Some of them or all of them won't make it if we get back to being one of the best teams around, but all of them should improve to some degree through playing and with a half decent coach. Even under ETH a lot of younger players kicked on in my opinion.

Sir Alex didn’t do the coaching though. He left it to McClaren, Phelan, Meulensteen and Quieroz etc…. So really the question of coaching is are LVG/Jose/Ole etc better than those coaches?
There again, did Moyes, LVG, Jose, Ole and ETH do training themselves or did they delegate to their assistants and coaching staff? Should we really be questioning Giggs, P Neville, Rui Faria, Carrick and McKenna etc? The later two have been debated to death and largely proved everyone wrong when they’ve stepped away from United and gone out on their own.
Let’s be fair here, Moyes was a relative success at Everton before and I would argue a roaring success at WH since (he won a European competition - look where they are now they have a ‘better’ head coach in Lopetegui) I think you can argue he is a good coach. In different circumstances he could have been a good coach for United, had he not made a handful of fatal mistakes.
LVG being near retirement is neither here or there really. He held a very impressive CV, had a wealth of experience and knowledge, and he is one of the games most decorated coaches. He knew what he was doing, but still came up short.
I also don’t think coaching was Jose’s downfall. His issue has always been man management, rubbing people up the wrong way and demotivating players. He likes to foster a siege mentality which is a somewhat antiquated approach, and when Faria left and he was unchecked he seemed to have that siege mentality himself against those around him at the club. He isolated key players and filled the dressing room with a toxic negativity.
I could go on about Ole and Erik too, but I’m wary of tl;dr-ing this post. It’s a long assed way of explaining I think that coaching hasn’t been the problem per se, and that a player must be receptive to that coaching for it to be successful. If our players don’t or can’t carry out their instructions as coached it really doesn’t matter who the coach is.

SAF did coach but he evolved over time, by the end he just watched over everything like big brother. That's where he is great in my opinion, because he buried his ego to keep evolving tactically.

By the by I agree though, it is so easy to say we have not hired a 'good' coach before but they have all been 'good' maybe bar Ole/Ragnick by most quantifiable means. What I think we can say is fair is we have not hired up and coming coaches (much like with many of our player transfers), there was definitely some thought process with Woodward that United needed big established names i.e. look at us, we signed LVG and Mourinho, CL winning coaches. ETH was the first I would say that was seen as a real prospect, Amorim is the second. Younger coaches bring new ideas and unless you want to bankroll one of the older guys it's just not worth trying to outspend City, because Arteta and Klopp, and Conte to a point, have shown City are very assailable - but you will have to spend big and continuously spend big for multiple seasons. Arteta probably should have a PL winners medal right now had Oliver not ref'd all City's title rival games (without exaggerating) and I doubt many people are arguing he's some all time great manager. He's clearly 'good' but, more importantly, he's a bit younger and had some new ideas that have worked well in the PL and has spent shit loads of money.

 

[romufc]

Both things can be true (average manager and average players), especially since the former had signed a big chunk of the latter

My point is if you believe the manager and players are average, why are you moaning that we are mid/lower table? What more can you expect from average players / manager?

In theory, if you feel we have average everything, why would anyone call last season an underachievement?

I would say someone like someone like Brentford have a good manager / average squad - if they finished mid table and won FA cup, they would be excited and say overachieved.

How can an average manager / squad win 2 trophies and still say its underachieving.

Clearly something is not right then?

 

[simonhch]

Not so much about individuals, but as a collective and how they fit together, I think we have a top 4 to 6 midfield and defence. Dalot, Mazroui, De Ligt, Martínez, Yoro, Shaw, Ugarte, Mainoo, Bruno, Mount, and Casemiro are all high quality players. The attack, however, is far too immature in their development. Garnacho, Amad, Hojlund, Zirkzee, the oldest is 23. Antony is a bust, and Rashford is our only mature forward at 27 and going through a prolonged poor spell.

A chance in system to Amorim’s preferred 3-4-3 would likely see Bruno and Mount behind Hojlund, bringing in more prime level talent in favoured positions and hopefully better outcomes. It’s terrible planning to be relying on a cadre of such young forwards. Ineos will need 2-3 more windows to put that right.

 

[Giggsy13]

The squad’s overall mentality is below average. I believe based on talent we’re a top 5 squad.

 

[harms]

Players themselves are slightly above average, probably 6th or 7th in the league. The squad is such a mishmash of different players with non-complimentary strengths and weaknesses though that it brings us even further down in the estimation.

 

[Mainoonited]

Been one of the standout GK's this season.

Barthez and Bosnich were good for a bit too. They weren't a patch on the likes of Schmeichel, VDS or DDG. He'll do for now because we have much more urgent problems to address.

I hope he grows into the role and becomes a great keeper, but last season he was horrendous.

 

[harms]

MF: Currently top 6-8 in the league quality, many players with potential to make it top 4

I assume that Ugarte will improve somewhat, Mainoo goes without saying but the rest of our scarce midfield is over the hill (some almost comically so, like Eriksen & Casemiro, some surprisingly so, given their age like Mount), who are these “many players with potential”?

 

[glazed]

They can, but they also need a wide player with tremendous ability in isolation plays and a striker with a killer's instinct. Plus, a manager able to get the momentum going while keeping it simple. Mahrez/Vardy under Ranieri or Hazard/Costa in Conte's first season. We lack either of them.

That would certainly help. I'm not thinking about titles right now, just getting the pattern of play to work.

 

[antsmithmk]

Agreed with what everyone has said about the prospects in the forward line. I don't see much in the way of potential nor do I see much in the way of what Zirkzee and Hojland are supposed to be good at. We should have got Toney in the summer.

 

[romufc]

Agreed with what everyone has said about the prospects in the forward line. I don't see much in the way of potential nor do I see much in the way of what Zirkzee and Hojland are supposed to be good at. We should have got Toney in the summer.

Interesting you dont see what Hojlund is good at. He runs channels and when he gets chances, he does finish them. Whilst you look at how Amorim plays, its a perfect style for Hojlund.

Toney would have cost £50m for someone who is 28 and is not interesting in football rather money. Exactly the player we needed at United... Not.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

That would certainly help. I'm not thinking about titles right now, just getting the pattern of play to work.

Fully agree. Amorim's task - the main thing he should be judged on - should be to raise the team's floor level. The rest will follow. And the new hierarchy must make sure that he won't have to sacrifice most of his core values and principles just to get short-term results (top-four).

 

[Offside]

It's hard to tell how good Hojlund, Garnacho and Amad are. I don't see a very high ceiling but a new manager could transform them. There's definitely been glimpses of real quality from all of them.

 

[Gabb]

This utd team lacks magic . We don't play with the swagger of old . Most of the players
are just mercenaries who play for remuneration while 70 odd thousand would give anything
Just to spend 30 seconds on the pitch. . It is a privledge to wear the united shirt and most of
Our squad take zero pride in wearing it.

 

[Hammondo]

Agreed with what everyone has said about the prospects in the forward line. I don't see much in the way of potential nor do I see much in the way of what Zirkzee and Hojland are supposed to be good at. We should have got Toney in the summer.

Why would you want Toney?

 

[GueRed]

Hojland, Yoro, Garnacho, and Mainoo I like. they're young and talented but need time to develop. They wouldn't be relied upon guaranteed starters at other top clubs. Hopefully if they have the right mentality they will develop and improve over time.

Rashford and Bruno have carried the team in seasons gone past but gone off the boil recently..

The rest? most of them are decent but overrated by the fanbase.

 

[romufc]

Why would you want Toney?

Because he doesn't play for us.. united fans tend to overrate players that dont play for us.

I seen posts say we should have got Solanke instead and we miss player like him.

I am glad we didnt get Toney, was only looking for money, nothing to do with football. He also seems to have an attitude problem, few issues were brewing with Frank and there is a reason why clubs didnt go for him whilst needing a ST. Arsenal, Spurs, etc..

 

[glazed]

It's hard to tell how good Hojlund, Garnacho and Amad are. I don't see a very high ceiling but a new manager could transform them. There's definitely been glimpses of real quality from all of them.

How many super promising teens turn into world class players? One in a hundred?

 

[bigeyedfish21]

Just look at our bench compared to Chelsea's on Sunday, it was pathetic. Our squad just isn't good enough.

 

[devilish]

I don't believe we are average. GK and defence certainly isn't.

My point is if you believe the manager and players are average, why are you moaning that we are mid/lower table? What more can you expect from average players / manager?

In theory, if you feel we have average everything, why would anyone call last season an underachievement?

I would say someone like someone like Brentford have a good manager / average squad - if they finished mid table and won FA cup, they would be excited and say overachieved.

How can an average manager / squad win 2 trophies and still say its underachieving.

Clearly something is not right then?

Nielsen won the Euro with Denmark, Di Matteo won the CL with Chelsea while Rehhagel won the Euro with Greece. These are all serious cups far more then the FA cup yet none of those managers are anywhere near to manage Manchester United

There are other metrics that managers are judged upon. Fir example they have to be excellent communicators. If tactics aren't working then they need to switch things around on the fly. Think about the CL final against Bayern for example. They need to spot talent from miles away and they need to be able to build successful sides. Eth falls flat on all of them. He couldn't go past his eredivisie bias, his tactics were very much 1 dimension, his training was criticised for being too extreme and causing injuries + his man management was flat . On top of that his signings weren't that great (Mount, Anthony, Zirkzee, Casemiro, Malacia)

Saf used to say that the league table doesn't lie. That metric damns ETH

Was ETH a shit manager? Not really. He got rid of deadwood and he implemented some discipline which was non existent during the smiling era. That deserves respect and elevates him to well average . There's no shame with that either. We are essentially a 2 men manager club (Busby and SAF). That doesn't mean he's good enough either

Regarding the squad it has it's strong points and it's glaring flaws. Defence/GK is great but we lack a LB. CM is decent but no 8 needs improvement. Mainoo has potential but he's too young, Eriksen & Casemiro lack legs and Mount is a new Shaw. We have a huge problem on the flanks. None of them are first team level which is a problem considering the salaries being paid there. Hojlund will improve in time but he's not really there yet

Looking forward i am glad that we had moved to a head coach system. It's not perfect but it limits players bias and it's puts the responsibility on the specialist laps. You don't want the manager to sign players as much as you don't want a sporting director to decide tactics or train players. It's fascinating to notice how many managers hate that. Surely they must know by now that meddling into areas they have zero expertise in is a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[thegregster]

Agreed with what everyone has said about the prospects in the forward line. I don't see much in the way of potential nor do I see much in the way of what Zirkzee and Hojland are supposed to be good at. We should have got Toney in the summer.

I don't know if he was the answer. But Villa getting 4th last season,Newcastle getting 4th in 22/23 and us getting 4th in 22/23 was largely down to Watkins,Calum Wilson and Rashford all having 17-18 goal seasons.

 

[RedRover]

Absolutely. It's weird how more people didn't see that. Goes to show how blind we can be when watching our own players, and especially players that we like.

Indeed. I do like Hojlund - he's a real tryer, and he's got a lot of potential but he just looks raw. A good coach get's more out of him so let's hope Amorim can do the business.

 

[GazTheLegend]

It's better than where it is on the table. As for its potential, that's very difficult to gauge but when you see squads like Newcastle and Villa finishing 4th recently, I wouldn't be surprised if under different circumstances, it can finish that high.

Same but worse squad finished 3rd so definitely

 

[GazTheLegend]

Just look at our bench compared to Chelsea's on Sunday, it was pathetic. Our squad just isn't good enough.

It's better than people give it credit for. It's just the front 3 that are questionable, really, but there's just no confidence at the minute. If that gets flowing it's my strong belief we can put a run together, but the players visibly gave up under Ten Hag.

 

[greater wall]

Just look at our bench compared to Chelsea's on Sunday, it was pathetic. Our squad just isn't good enough.

It's this really. The squad needs building and it's going to be another couple of summers but this season we can get to the top 5th-6th positions.

 

[George The Best]

The first team need a LB. Mid Playmaker and Goal scorer. Beyond that we also need to add depth to the squad for rotation and to cover injuries. Amorim has a big job on his hands. Will take a few windows - IF we have the money. He will do well to get us to 6th this season imo.

 

[lex talionis]

"5th or 6th at worst"

"here's 3 clubs with squads definitely better than ours, and 4 more similar in quality to us"

Would that not make us 8th "at worst"?

No, it wouldn't, unless you sincerely believe that all of Villa, Chelsea, Newcastle and Spurs actually do have better squads than United -- then we would be "8th at worst". It happens that I don't believe that, but I do believe that none of those squads are somewhat close to us in terms of talent, man for man.

Of those four clubs the one player I would definitely want to steal is Cole Palmer. The others, which I'll name below, are close calls. A case could be made for one player from each club that would substantially improve us.

Some might want Martinez (Villa) over Onana, and if you asked me that last season I would agree. Not now. Onana has been excellent this season, a vast improvement over last season and he's settled in for what I believe will be a nice 4-5 season run at Old Trafford. There's no one else at Villa I would consider as an upgrade on how we have. Chelsea, just Cole Palmer...but what an upgrade he would be! Newcastle, on his day Guimaraes but I'm not sold on the idea that he would be an upgrade on Bruno or Mainoo but I imagine for some he would be a massive upgrade for us. Fine, Guimaraes. Spurs, well, Son would be an upgrade on either Rashford or Garnacho. There's no one else with Spurs I'd say I have to have some of that.

But man for man up and down the squad I don't see any of those four clubs having a better squad than ours, but it is as clear as can be that they have been better managed than United were managed during ETH's tenure and accordingly have been superior to us for the most part, during that time.

 

[Red Star One]

I assume that Ugarte will improve somewhat, Mainoo goes without saying but the rest of our scarce midfield is over the hill (some almost comically so, like Eriksen & Casemiro, some surprisingly so, given their age like Mount), who are these “many players with potential”?

As you said yourself, Mainoo has a great potential and yes I expect Ugarte to come good under Amorim. I also think Mount has a potential to be an important part of our second line. We obviously need to strengthen our midfield, but we’re not so bad there, even short term I think Bruno will have a good time in upcoming months.

 

[Alex99]

No, it wouldn't, unless you sincerely believe that all of Villa, Chelsea, Newcastle and Spurs actually do have better squads than United -- then we would be "8th at worst". It happens that I don't believe that, but I do believe that none of those squads are somewhat close to us in terms of talent, man for man.

Of those four clubs the one player I would definitely want to steal is Cole Palmer. The others, which I'll name below, are close calls. A case could be made for one player from each club that would substantially improve us.

Some might want Martinez (Villa) over Onana, and if you asked me that last season I would agree. Not now. Onana has been excellent this season, a vast improvement over last season and he's settled in for what I believe will be a nice 4-5 season run at Old Trafford. There's no one else at Villa I would consider as an upgrade on how we have. Chelsea, just Cole Palmer...but what an upgrade he would be! Newcastle, on his day Guimaraes but I'm not sold on the idea that he would be an upgrade on Bruno or Mainoo but I imagine for some he would be a massive upgrade for us. Fine, Guimaraes. Spurs, well, Son would be an upgrade on either Rashford or Garnacho. There's no one else with Spurs I'd say I have to have some of that.

But man for man up and down the squad I don't see any of those four clubs having a better squad than ours, but it is as clear as can be that they have been better managed than United were managed during ETH's tenure and accordingly have been superior to us for the most part, during that time.

If you've (correctly) marked City, Arsenal and Liverpool as better than us, and then said Villa, Chelsea, Spurs and Newcastle are "right there with us", then there's a chance we finish below all of them, hence "8th at worst". If we're clearly better than any of Villa, Chelsea, Spurs and Newcastle, then the teams we're better than are, by default, not "right there with us".

Off the top of my head, I actually think Villa probably have the weakest squad of the group, but I'd take Watkins in a heartbeat. From Spurs, Son is obvious, there's a decent argument for Solanke too, and given our issues at left-back, I'd also take Udogie. Newcastle I'd be taking Isak, possibly Gordon and Guimaraes, and for the same reason as Udogie, I'd be interested in Hall. From Chelsea, Palmer and a fit Reece James are the obvious choices.

It's not just about being better though. There are a lot of players there that you could swap out and, while they might not be obvious improvements, they're not obvious downgrades either. I think the problem with going through "man for man" comparisons is that fans of those clubs would be saying the exact same about how none of our players would get into their teams.

 

[Josep Dowling]

The front 3 is the main issue.

Hojlund can’t stay fit and when he does it takes him a run of games to hit form. He also doesn’t have the best positioning or first touch.

Our only other striker is Zirkzee who arguably isn’t a CF. He doesn’t look good enough for the Premier League and think he’ll be gone pretty quickly. Terrible signing and ultimately shows recruitment is still so bad. He doesn’t fit any criteria for being signed other than age.

For the wings our recruitment is arguably worse. Costly transfers in Antony, Sancho and Diallo. Mount could fit into that category as well. None of them were good enough to be signed for the fees we paid, even when they had potential.

Rashford has been atrocious for too long now that he’s not going to recover.

We need a 20 goal a season striker that would bail us out over a season. Thought Ollie Watkins was a good option to go for previously. We are likely to go after the Swedish Sporting striker now.

 

[lex talionis]

If you've (correctly) marked City, Arsenal and Liverpool as better than us, and then said Villa, Chelsea, Spurs and Newcastle are "right there with us", then there's a chance we finish below all of them, hence "8th at worst". If we're clearly better than any of Villa, Chelsea, Spurs and Newcastle, then the teams we're better than are, by default, not "right there with us".

Off the top of my head, I actually think Villa probably have the weakest squad of the group, but I'd take Watkins in a heartbeat. From Spurs, Son is obvious, there's a decent argument for Solanke too, and given our issues at left-back, I'd also take Udogie. Newcastle I'd be taking Isak, possibly Gordon and Guimaraes, and for the same reason as Udogie, I'd be interested in Hall. From Chelsea, Palmer and a fit Reece James are the obvious choices.

It's not just about being better though. There are a lot of players there that you could swap out and, while they might not be obvious improvements, they're not obvious downgrades either. I think the problem with going through "man for man" comparisons is that fans of those clubs would be saying the exact same about how none of our players would get into their teams.

Yes I do agree that there's a chance that we will finish below all of VIlla, Chelsea, Newcastle and Spurs, but the point we're discussing here is the strength of the squad of these five clubs, not what order in the PL table we'll finish at. It's universally accepted that we were badly managed, thus here we are. The open question is whether we have a midtable -- say 8th to 12th -- squad or whether we have a stronger squad than one would expect of whoever lands 8-12.

We are currently 13th and we have sacked the manager who should have been sacked in June. And the transfer activity over the summer, with the exception of Zirkzee, put us in a stronger position than where we were at the end of last season, although right now we have no idea what we have in Yoro.

All opinions so all good, but you've named one or two players from each of these clubs whereas I've named one player from each of those four clubs. And I do agree that other club supporters might look at us and take a pass on most of our players, but in all seriousness the one player from these clubs I would absolutely take is Cole Palmer. I'd probably add Son as well, but only probably. The best days of his arc may be behind him now and we all saw yesterday how much better Spurs were without him than with him. But you are correct to remind me of Reese James, although I have to say Mazraoui has been outstanding for us and I don't remember James having much of an impact yesterday whereas Mazraoui was everywhere doing more than what was reasonably expected.

The real gap between United and these other four clubs is the manager -- I guess "head coach" now -- and we shall we see whether Amorim can extract from this squad the talent that is there, and whether we and executive management can quickly address the core deficiencies -- striker and left back.

 

[Jacob]

Defense is decent, midfield OK and attack poor.

Overall average is a fair assessment.

 

[Telsim]

Keeper: Good.
Defense: Good.
Full back: Terrible. There's two of them.
Midfield: Average.
Attack: Terrible.

So, overall average, yeah. If everyone is fit, it should be enough for Top 5 under a good coach. But that's never going to happen. A squad that finishes between 8th and 10th.