de Ligt and Mainoo could be attractive for top five teams. Hard to see other attractive objects in our squad = our squad is damn average.
Is our squad average? Yes.
- Thread starter Bastian
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I’m convinced that our squad is below average PL quality, hence our position in the bottom half. Our players tend to cough up possession very cheaply, lack intensity when off the ball and go to sleep at key moments. I think our effort levels are OK but we just don’t have the necessary technical ability as a collective. I can’t think of one player in our squad who would necessarily improve any of the top 6 teams.
De Ligt was avaialble this summer and none of the top five Premier League teams wanted him.
If you offered our entire squad to City, Arsenal and Liverpool, I think the only player they'd definitely be interested in would be Mainoo.
There'd be some interest in Yoro, and possibly Hojlund and Garnacho based on their potential, but there wouldn't be interest in much else.
All the top PL clubs would want Mainoo.
With the exception of De Ligt who has just joined, everyone aged 24 or over I’d be looking to sell or let leave when their contract expires. All those players are either too old, injury prone or just not that good.
The huge wages those players earn and the large fees being amortised is massively disproportionate to what they offer on the pitch and that’s why we can’t compete. Focus on developing younger the younger players we have and bring in new players as and when we can.
The huge wages those players earn and the large fees being amortised is massively disproportionate to what they offer on the pitch and that’s why we can’t compete. Focus on developing younger the younger players we have and bring in new players as and when we can.
Onana 1000% starts for us.
I would have agreed with you six months ago but he's been anonymous when he's played this season. We've seen plenty of players come through the academy and look amazing and not been able to sustain it. Besides, I described him as 'talented but raw' - is that unfair?
And Yoro
I think we have a good squad, but we don't have a full 11 player team that can challenge for titles. We're asking teenagers to be 100% consistent, as much as I like Garnacho, Hojlund, Amad and Mainoo they are not experienced enough to win titles. The trouble is there are no senior players to cover for them. You'd think Rashford would be that player but he just isn't, which is a shame. I think apart from our LB situation our defence has good players. I think Ugarte will come good and has shown a lot of quality. But unless your strikers are scoring every game, you can't win matches.
Spot on. Our best players on paper (casemiro, Bruno and Rashford) are past their peaks and our promising young players just aren't quite there yet with the consistency which leaves us in a pretty shite spot
Still, we should be 5th in the table minimum with the squad we have at the half way point so there is serious under performing going on across the whole team
Serious question, how can we have a good squad without having a good starting XI? We have such a serious lack of quality up front, that our squad can't be called good. Only four teams have scored fewer goals than us in the league - it's no coincidence. With the exception of Amad, none of our forwards or wide players are good enough right now.
I think you have to look at the squad in terms of, if you were one of the top teams in the PL, who would you take from our squad, assuming you suddenly had a free space in your first team squad?
I look at Liverpool, Arsenal, City, Chelsea, even Villa and I can't see many players I would want if I was them. Maybe Bruno at a push, Yoro as a future prospect, Mainoo similar. I think they'd all reject the likes of Antony, Rashford, Mount, Casemiro, Eriksen, and probably Shaw even at bargain basement prices. I also don't think they would be terribly interested in Garnacho, Martinez, Zirkzee and the likes.
Maybe they'd take a look at Amad and Mazraoui.
Overall, very average squad with a couple of players who could be top club material.
I look at Liverpool, Arsenal, City, Chelsea, even Villa and I can't see many players I would want if I was them. Maybe Bruno at a push, Yoro as a future prospect, Mainoo similar. I think they'd all reject the likes of Antony, Rashford, Mount, Casemiro, Eriksen, and probably Shaw even at bargain basement prices. I also don't think they would be terribly interested in Garnacho, Martinez, Zirkzee and the likes.
Maybe they'd take a look at Amad and Mazraoui.
Overall, very average squad with a couple of players who could be top club material.
Our squad isn't average by any stretch, they just lack game smarts. The likes of Dalot trying last minute headers from about 18 yards out, or twatting shots in hope, Onana wasting a minute taking an injury time free kick to steal about 5 yards, Garnacho shooting all he time instead of looking for passes to players who are free, our lack of ability to take a fecking corner. They're not average, they're just fecking thick.
I think he probably means we have players that would be good enough as part of a better squad individually. I think many of them fall into that bucket they're not bad players they just collectively are a mismatch and quality isn't quite high enough as we lack one or two top players.
Some times it only takes a single player to lift the whole team, look at Palmer for instance. Most of that Chelsea team is very average.
If we had a Saka, Palmer, Isak in this team everyone's level would increase.
How does this make sense? Game intelligence and decision making are such important traits of player quality. If a player consistently makes the wrong decision and makes stupid mistakes, that player is average at best.
Nah, I just think that's a complete whitewashing of the squad. Almost everyone single one of our players has major issues related to their individual quality.
Players with potential that are not ready to be regular starters - Garnacho, Højlund, Mainoo
Players that are too old, which either means lack of athleticism or just no future - Eriksen, Casemiro, Evans
Players that are perpetually injured - Mount, Shaw
Players that flat out are not and will not be good enough for the required level - Antony, Malacia, Zirkzee, Dalot, Lindelof
Players with huge question marks for other reasons - Rashford, Onana
And then you have some players that are either good enough for the starting XI, good squad options or with major potential - Yoro, De Ligt, Maguire, Martinez, Mazraoui, Amad, Bruno
Now we can debate the categorization of these and move them around a bit, but the overall conclusion is that about two thirds of the squad are not fit for purpose right now. Getting one top quality forward would certainly help, but to what extent? We are currently 13th, so maybe it moves us to 8th? Great.
People need to wake up to the fact that this squad is absolutely rotten to the core. It's open heart surgery that is needed - not tinkering around the edges and better coaching from the manager.
That's a fair assessment. The only player who is good enough is Mazraoui and maybe Amad now that Bruno is out of form. Yoro will hopefully become good, maybe Mainoo, Garnacho and Höjlund as well.
We were poor in 4231 and we will be equally poor or even worse in 3421. We are on course for a finish in 10-15th spot. Too many fans think Amorim will achieve top 6 with this lot of players. Some quality signings in January might lift us to 6-8th spot though.
Worse than average.
Arsenal fan here. I think we would definitely be interested in Mainoo, Yoro and Amad. That’s based on talent and potential, though. None of them would be certain of a starting spot.
Before we bought Califiori we definitely would have wanted Licha at LB (in fact, you signing him meant we had to settle for Zinchenko).
Shaw is great when fit. Rashford is great when motivated. Unfortunately, neither of those circumstances occur nearly often enough.
Probably repeating myself but beyond ability the mentality of our team is below average
If you look at Liverpool and City at their peaks they're all like robots personality wise... Van Dijk, Salah, De Bruyne etc... as a club we seem to have this hang up about needing 'characters' and vibes.
If you look at Liverpool and City at their peaks they're all like robots personality wise... Van Dijk, Salah, De Bruyne etc... as a club we seem to have this hang up about needing 'characters' and vibes.
We have an unbelievable lack of players who can dribble a football to retain possession or make some headway out through congested areas.
It's become really apparent because with Maz coming in and being our best player, a huge part of that is he can actually beat a man.
Diallo as well is adored just now because he can actually skin players and we've been starved of that for so long.
Rashford and Garna can bolt down an empty wing with the ball really well but as soon as they are closed down they lose out and they know it, hence the number of stupid shots or attempted passes that are never making it.
I think we'd see a huge improvement with another couple of players in attack and/or midfield that could actually beat people in tight spaces. It takes opposition players out of the game and makes space for playing passes accurately.
It's become really apparent because with Maz coming in and being our best player, a huge part of that is he can actually beat a man.
Diallo as well is adored just now because he can actually skin players and we've been starved of that for so long.
Rashford and Garna can bolt down an empty wing with the ball really well but as soon as they are closed down they lose out and they know it, hence the number of stupid shots or attempted passes that are never making it.
I think we'd see a huge improvement with another couple of players in attack and/or midfield that could actually beat people in tight spaces. It takes opposition players out of the game and makes space for playing passes accurately.
I disagree with that. You can be a player, such as Garnacho, who is easily one of the best young players in the world, and he can have monumental brain farts. Dalot the worst of the lot for that, he is quite clearly an excellent footballer, and yet he';s trying headers from the edge of the box and twatting balls over the bar from 30 yards instead of playing simple passes.
I think the defence (Yoro, Martinez, De Ligt, Maguire, Mazraoui) is top four quality. Midfield (Mainoo + Ugarte) is maybe top six-ish in quality but the depth falls off pretty quick with Eriksen, Casemiro.
The attack is dogshit. I think bottom half in quality.
The attack is dogshit. I think bottom half in quality.
It is amazing how utterly bereft our attack is though. Considering we're a club that is heavily known for producing, or having, watchable and technically gifted players.
With Garnacho it makes sense, because he is young, of course. The potential is clearly there.
What you are writing about Dalot is just a massive contradiction to me. An ‘excellent footballer’ in the early part of his prime does not make the decisions Dalot does. I truly hope the club does not consider Dalot’s level to be excellent.
This squad was carried by Rashford up-front in 22/23, Case, before he getting carded twice and then lost his confidence massively, along with some good performances by Shaw (when fit), Martinez and Eriksen, before he got Andy Carrolled.
Last season we were quite frankly dreadful. Rashford was anonymous, we just had no attacking threat really and that has carried on this season with the morale disastrous and only Amad carrying us up front, with a pretty poor midfield (bar Ugarte the last few matches).
Of course this squad is mediocre, that's not even debatable.
What's debatable is if we had one or two top notch players, if that would turn this mediocre squad into a decent first XI with some of the regular first XI turned into squad players.
I am also so sick of seeing how shit our midfield has been for so long. They are hard to find but a Scholes/Kroos-like profile in terms of a controller would do a world of difference - I thought we should have been in for Enzo Fernandez before he moved to Benfica.
We are only learning our lessons now about the South American market.
Last season we were quite frankly dreadful. Rashford was anonymous, we just had no attacking threat really and that has carried on this season with the morale disastrous and only Amad carrying us up front, with a pretty poor midfield (bar Ugarte the last few matches).
Of course this squad is mediocre, that's not even debatable.
What's debatable is if we had one or two top notch players, if that would turn this mediocre squad into a decent first XI with some of the regular first XI turned into squad players.
I am also so sick of seeing how shit our midfield has been for so long. They are hard to find but a Scholes/Kroos-like profile in terms of a controller would do a world of difference - I thought we should have been in for Enzo Fernandez before he moved to Benfica.
We are only learning our lessons now about the South American market.
Depends what you consider average - there are several clubs above us on the table with weaker squads.
How can anyone look at this shit and doubt we have an average squad? Only argument against it would be that it’s actually below average.
The summer of buying and selling has left us in a place where we can no longer compete in the Premier League, let alone the lower reaches of Europe. The Ten Hag era really ruined us for the next decade.
Of course it is. The league table and underlying stats don't lie. £600m wasted on absolute dross.
Average? That’s a massive understatement, we’re fecking garbage!
I reckon priority should be to bin off every single player on high (180k+) wages. We need to get our wage bill around mid-table level to reflect the quality of it, and start from there.
It's interesting to see us against the likes of these guys, Bodo etc. because you can see the quality is there with the younger players - Hojlund, Amad for example - and it was not necessarily a great game but quite one sided. Apart from the gift of a goal, I'm struggling to remember a single other shot on target.
The step up in the PL (or CL if we ever get there) is big though, it remains to be seen if they can make it.
The step up in the PL (or CL if we ever get there) is big though, it remains to be seen if they can make it.
It's really lacking in top players. We don't need everyone to be world class to compete, but it seems we just have none.
It makes it so hard for our young players to actually reach a top level, when we're putting all our hopes on a bunch of 20 years old kids. Amad, Hojlund, Garna, and Maino should be surrounded with top players, instead, we're counting on them to lead a team of our size with all the pressure that comes with it.
We're operating like a midtable club, trying to find a good deal here and there. I'm afraid we need to spend big, otherwise Amorim will fail as others did. This isn't a CL or premier league winning group.
It makes it so hard for our young players to actually reach a top level, when we're putting all our hopes on a bunch of 20 years old kids. Amad, Hojlund, Garna, and Maino should be surrounded with top players, instead, we're counting on them to lead a team of our size with all the pressure that comes with it.
We're operating like a midtable club, trying to find a good deal here and there. I'm afraid we need to spend big, otherwise Amorim will fail as others did. This isn't a CL or premier league winning group.
Painfully average, if you have good players they can usually pull the team to good results most of the time even if the manager is average, especially against smaller opponents. This lot struggle against relegation teams in the league and nobodies in Europe, a sign that we don’t have good players. Wasted 1bn+ since Fergies retirement and haven’t managed to build a half decent squad, shocking really.
I think this one is more apt here as well.
The most obvious answer is the players. We just sign very poor players with obvious flaws and then complain about us not being technically as good as other teams. You compare our players like Zhirkee, Hojlund, Rashford, Garnacho, Bruno, Antony. All of them have obvious technical faults. They have the inability to protect the ball under pressure, first touch is poor, some slow basically technically shit. You compare us to all top teams
Arsenal have Odegaard, Saka, Haverts, Martinelli
City has Debruyne, Silva and Foden
Liverpool has Salah, Diaz, Sboz and Mac Alliaster
Chelsea has Madueke, Palmer, Nkuku and Enzo
Spurs have Son, Kulusevski
The only player who resembles close to any of these players in terms of close control and technical ability is Amad.
Look at our summer business the smart option would have been to go for Jao Pedro (Watford or then Brighton) or Cunha from Wolves and Neves from Benefica. Whereas we signed Zhirkee (earlier Hojlund) and Ugarte (whose solid but technically not at the same level). Before that we signed Antony (for 85M) when we should have signed Kudus from Ajax for 40M etc. Then we signed Mount where for 60M we could have signed Maddison who is far better player for 40M was it or even less. All players who are better technically and were signed for less amounts then we paid for.
We need fast, technically strong players who can hardworking, with good dribbling ability whereas we always end up with slow, technically deficient players who are lethargic. Its a pattern that has been going on for a while, Maz hand Yoro will be good signings for future who will improve our overall technical quality. But a lot more is required and it should start with Bruno and Rashford because they may fetch us the most amount currently.
The most obvious answer is the players. We just sign very poor players with obvious flaws and then complain about us not being technically as good as other teams. You compare our players like Zhirkee, Hojlund, Rashford, Garnacho, Bruno, Antony. All of them have obvious technical faults. They have the inability to protect the ball under pressure, first touch is poor, some slow basically technically shit. You compare us to all top teams
Arsenal have Odegaard, Saka, Haverts, Martinelli
City has Debruyne, Silva and Foden
Liverpool has Salah, Diaz, Sboz and Mac Alliaster
Chelsea has Madueke, Palmer, Nkuku and Enzo
Spurs have Son, Kulusevski
The only player who resembles close to any of these players in terms of close control and technical ability is Amad.
Look at our summer business the smart option would have been to go for Jao Pedro (Watford or then Brighton) or Cunha from Wolves and Neves from Benefica. Whereas we signed Zhirkee (earlier Hojlund) and Ugarte (whose solid but technically not at the same level). Before that we signed Antony (for 85M) when we should have signed Kudus from Ajax for 40M etc. Then we signed Mount where for 60M we could have signed Maddison who is far better player for 40M was it or even less. All players who are better technically and were signed for less amounts then we paid for.
We need fast, technically strong players who can hardworking, with good dribbling ability whereas we always end up with slow, technically deficient players who are lethargic. Its a pattern that has been going on for a while, Maz hand Yoro will be good signings for future who will improve our overall technical quality. But a lot more is required and it should start with Bruno and Rashford because they may fetch us the most amount currently.
Personally I really don’t like this current paper talk of wholesale clearouts again. I think our squad is generally ok. I don’t think we need best in class in every position and throwing an entirely new group of players together feels like the start of yet another 3 year plan.
I’ll be honest in that I don’t think I have the patience for another 3 year plan where the end point can never be guaranteed.
I think some sympathetic pruning is required, with some Amorim specific players such as wingbacks and a decent striker should be enough for him to work with.
I’ll be honest in that I don’t think I have the patience for another 3 year plan where the end point can never be guaranteed.
I think some sympathetic pruning is required, with some Amorim specific players such as wingbacks and a decent striker should be enough for him to work with.
We look shite right now because almost none of our players in midfield or attack, i.e. the ones that need to score goals and win games, are currently at the level needed. But I'm optimistic about the long-term outlook and disagree with some of the more extreme takes in this thread.
We have a core of very exciting young players in Yoro, Garnacho, Amad, Mainoo and Hojlund. We're over reliant on the latter four in particular and none of them are currently good enough to be starting for a club that wants to be in the Champions League, probably not even Europa League. But all of them have shown the potential to get there (yes, all of them - Hojlund and especially Garnacho get piled on by some of our more mental fans for being frustrating and inconsistent...like literally all 20 and 21-year-old attacking players). The hope is that they'll keep getting better, ideally reaching the level we need in another 2-3 years, by which time a good chunk of our older players (Onana, De Ligt, Martinez, Dalot, Ugarte, Mazraoui) will still be in their peak years, and we'll have signed at least a couple of others that raise the level of the starting XI and team.
Unlike the last time we made it to the CL (with a creaking midfield of two newly signed 30-year-olds who were inevitably going to lose their legs) or the time before that (with a 33-year-old leading the line and soon replaced by a 36-year-old), you can argue that this squad is being built with a long-term view.
Another thing mentioned by a few posters that I completely agree with is that adding 2 or 3 elite players to a squad makes the others around them look much better too. There are loads of recent examples in the PL: Arsenal became a top team in Arteta's third season because they gave their elite young talent in Saka and Saliba (on loan) the time to develop into world class players, and struck gold in the transfer market with Odegaard.
Those three (and Martinelli in 22/23) were the difference-making players that we currently don't have, and that makes some people think all our players are crap. The likes of Partey, Gabriel, White, Ramsdale, etc were all playing regularly in the bang-average Arsenal teams that finished 8th and 5th, and I bet some of the more impatient Arsenal fans at that time will have been saying things like "no top 6 club would look seriously at these players". (Flipside, to back up my views on our young players' potential above: Saka in 20/21 when he was 19 years old got fewer goals+assists in the league than Garnacho managed for us at the same age last season - can bet the knee-jerkers on their forums and Twitter would have been going on about him being braindead and making terrible decisions every week!).
TLDR we're a bit rubbish, but we should get much better.
We have a core of very exciting young players in Yoro, Garnacho, Amad, Mainoo and Hojlund. We're over reliant on the latter four in particular and none of them are currently good enough to be starting for a club that wants to be in the Champions League, probably not even Europa League. But all of them have shown the potential to get there (yes, all of them - Hojlund and especially Garnacho get piled on by some of our more mental fans for being frustrating and inconsistent...like literally all 20 and 21-year-old attacking players). The hope is that they'll keep getting better, ideally reaching the level we need in another 2-3 years, by which time a good chunk of our older players (Onana, De Ligt, Martinez, Dalot, Ugarte, Mazraoui) will still be in their peak years, and we'll have signed at least a couple of others that raise the level of the starting XI and team.
Unlike the last time we made it to the CL (with a creaking midfield of two newly signed 30-year-olds who were inevitably going to lose their legs) or the time before that (with a 33-year-old leading the line and soon replaced by a 36-year-old), you can argue that this squad is being built with a long-term view.
Another thing mentioned by a few posters that I completely agree with is that adding 2 or 3 elite players to a squad makes the others around them look much better too. There are loads of recent examples in the PL: Arsenal became a top team in Arteta's third season because they gave their elite young talent in Saka and Saliba (on loan) the time to develop into world class players, and struck gold in the transfer market with Odegaard.
Those three (and Martinelli in 22/23) were the difference-making players that we currently don't have, and that makes some people think all our players are crap. The likes of Partey, Gabriel, White, Ramsdale, etc were all playing regularly in the bang-average Arsenal teams that finished 8th and 5th, and I bet some of the more impatient Arsenal fans at that time will have been saying things like "no top 6 club would look seriously at these players". (Flipside, to back up my views on our young players' potential above: Saka in 20/21 when he was 19 years old got fewer goals+assists in the league than Garnacho managed for us at the same age last season - can bet the knee-jerkers on their forums and Twitter would have been going on about him being braindead and making terrible decisions every week!).
TLDR we're a bit rubbish, but we should get much better.
If it was a different competition we obviously wouldn't need the best in every position but this is PL, by far the most competitive championship on the planet so we have to be as close as possible. And yes, before you get too disappointed just try to embrace the idea that it will take an another 3 year period before we will be a serious title contenders again. Getting rid of the scrap and signing quality players to replace them sounds simple but obviously isn't. Unfortunately i don't have the privileges yet but i'd love start a thread like "Would you accept that we have to wait another three years, but then we would definitely have a chance to win the championship?" or something like that just to see what others think.