haha here we go. You sound like you're talking to naughty children. Bit patronising. Run along now, can't remember visiting the germany thread to tell german fans how they should feel about their managers.
Is Gareth Southgate a shiite England manager?
- Thread starter VP89
- Start date
You are free to do as you like regarding your managers. I'm simply stating that as a neutral I believe Southgate has done very well both in terms of performances and in terms of enhancing Englands reputation in all of Europe. I've never heard people speak as highly before about the English team, not even when you had Beckham, Lampard, Gerrard and so on. But in the end the choice is yours, not anyone elses.
You are also welcome to discuss what you feel about German football or the managers. It helps broaden the perspective.
France sat back and sat on their lead. They allowed England to have the ball knowing we could barely create anything from open play. They were never in danger of losing the tie... you make it sound like we were trashing France and they lucked out, when that was simply not the case.
Opponent | Games | Win % | W | D | L | GF | GA | GD |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
France | 2 | 0% | - | - | 2 | 3 | 5 | -2 |
Italy | 4 | 0% | - | 2 | 2 | 4 | 6 | -2 |
Brazil | 1 | 0% | - | 1 | - | 0 | 0 | 0 |
Germany | 5 | 20% | 1 | 3 | 1 | 6 | 5 | 1 |
Belgium | 4 | 25% | 1 | - | 3 | 2 | 6 | -4 |
Hungary | 4 | 25% | 1 | 1 | 2 | 5 | 6 | -1 |
Denmark | 3 | 33% | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 0 |
Spain | 3 | 33% | 1 | 1 | 1 | 6 | 6 | 0 |
Scotland | 3 | 33% | 1 | 2 | - | 5 | 2 | 3 |
Netherlands | 2 | 50% | 1 | - | 1 | 2 | 3 | -1 |
Croatia | 4 | 50% | 2 | 1 | 1 | 4 | 3 | 1 |
Poland | 2 | 50% | 1 | 1 | - | 3 | 2 | 1 |
Slovenia | 2 | 50% | 1 | 1 | - | 1 | 0 | 1 |
USA | 2 | 50% | 1 | 1 | - | 3 | 0 | 3 |
Czechia | 3 | 67% | 2 | - | 1 | 7 | 2 | 5 |
Clearly he's a great Manager taking England places with this data... as I said before. As soon as we meet an organised, tactical opponent we struggle massively. That isn't the skillset for a Manager when the nations ambition is to win a trophy and not just have vibes and give it "a good go". The expectation for England is to win, not just turn up and participate. You can't scrape through an entire Tournament playing mediocre teams, theres comes a point when the draw spits out a tough opponent and when that happens under Southgate we tend to not win.
This is ultimately where Southgates cup record should be somewhat ignored. World Cup 2018 we played: Tunisia (won), Panama (won), Belgium (lost). We then had a round 16 against Colombia (won), beat Sweden in the quarters and then lost to Croatia in the semis. Other than Belgium, would you say that Tunisia, Panama, Colombia or Sweden are tricky, organised opponents? Would you expect Spain to lose against any of those four? We then lost to Belgium in the 3rd place playoff. It was an easy draw for us and we still managed to lose three times.
Roll on to the euros. A better tournament for us, probably the best under Southgate, better than the World Cups. But dear god did he bottle the final. We beat Croatia, Germany and Denmark to reach the final. No real complaints for me here, although I was deeply angry at the final as it seemed like we reverted back to our usual performance and bottled it. Both the players and Southgate was at fault for that game, but Southgates reluctance to use subs and go for the win cost us the Tournament. Again, a match which relied on the Manager to make good calls and he fecked it.
This tournament we were mediocre, didn't really have a tough game until we met France and then ballsed it up. Again, I repeat my previous points, we are a team under Southgate that can beat the easier/medium difficulty fixtures with consistency but fail big time against the harder and more organised opposition. That is generally the typical England performance for us in the past 30 years (with the exception of Steve McClaren).
Side note, we've played 13 games in 2022 and won 5.
Didn't you just say that in international football there's no time to do any coaching? I'm confused now, what you are saying appears to be self contradictory
I'm pretty sure you can do all that without the 'I hope the naughty england fans get their sweeties taken away for being so ungrateful' really... Anyway I think you should stick with Hansi Flick who is clearly an outstanding coach. You guys got truly sucker punched by Japan and I do think the failure to emerge from the group was more unfortunate than coaching lapses. You might have got out of the group with Southgate in charge, but I would not expect much progress after that. Whereas with Flick, his merits I feel would have shone more in later stages.
I'm not going to comment on the 'golden generation' any more, i get a bit sick of hearing about it. For such an apparently talented team the amount of utterly dire performances they racked up was incredible. They weren't capable of playing as a unit and somehow the masterminds in charge couldn't work out that out of all of them the one that was probably undroppable was Carrick, who somehow never made the squads.
It's an absurd argument, kudos to you for taking the time to discuss it with people on here but anyone who truly believes it's mostly about vibes is massively minimizing international football. Argentina, Morocco, these teams absolutely did have a true tactical identity - it's less so the case for France in this tournament who are all over the place if truth be told, for various reasons, but of course there's more than enough time to implement some clear tactics. It's obviously a very different job from club football and day to day coaching, but if it were only about vibes and game management, no way a manager like Pep would be interested in international football. You could just get in someone like James Corden to manage the team throughout a tournament.
It's a seriously absurd argument whichever way you look at it. Creating a positive atmosphere and environment is a very important aspect of the job, one Southgate has indeed excelled at, but it's because there's more to the job that he hasn't won anything and that a lot of people want to see him gone.
Why does having a penalty to equalize and likely push it into ET suddenly doesn't matter?
No, i said you only have time to work on a macro level. As in coaching strategy, a broad frame of work in terms of playing style, and minor adjustments between games. What you don't have the time for is to get your defence to gel and work seemlessly as a unit, install a sophisticated pressing scheme, and work on automated build-up/attacking sequences
He has good bits (very good team atmosphere, man manager, has worked with the younger generation in the under 21s), and bad bits (average tactician, very bad in game management / subs, questionable first XIs, very poor record against the traditional big European sides).
I think though above all by far the biggest quantifiable difference from now and the previous generations, is just the wealth of attacking talent available. For example in that generation you listed, where we had great defense and midfield, but our attack was not as good. In 2006, we had Lennon, Cole and an injured Rooney. In the 2006 - 2016 era, we had some shocking lineups, with the likes of Welbeck, Walcott, Sturridge even Heskey getting regular starts.
Now we have so many attacking options that can't even get into the squad, that are equal or better than the ones above that started previously (e.g. Toney). The question is then, do you take the gamble on someone who'll use those attacking options? Or persist with Southgate's good atmosphere, but potentially waste the best attacking group of players (as a whole) in 30+ years? The tactical options he made both against Italy and France, were very poor. Personally for me I don't see him suddenly knowing how to attack teams or making use of the attacking ability we have, when his default setting is to start Sterling and Mount whenever they're fit. He's not going to get sacked until we fail again at the Euros against any good side we come up against.
The German team has been a mess ever since 2014 really. Lahm was smart and got out in time. Schweinsteiger overstayed his welcome and got out 2016. Kroos saw what was happening and retired relatively young from the national team.
Flicks main problem is what Southgate has excelled at: team cohesiveness. The team is in disarray for political reasons. That and some perceived darlings (Bayern block) getting preferential treatment. You could also add the regrowth has been less than satisfactory.
Flick is an excellent coach but right now he might not be the best fit simply because of his connection to a lot of the players. I'm willing to see him continue and I hope he can find it in him to wield the axe no matter how fond he is of some players. Müller, Neuer, Götze and some others are not getting younger. Do it like in 2006 - kick out the old guys and start a new with fresh faces. Well, a bit like todays England actually.
You know a lot of what you highlighted (average tactician, bad in game management, questionable XI) is extremely easy to solve. It's usually what Southgate is good at that is the tough part. It's very common the manager is not the tactical genius but rather the charismatic leader. You simply need to find a great tactical partner for Southgate as long as he excels in the rest. You could call it tactical/charismatic tandem
Löw/Klinsmann
Buvac/Klopp
Quieroz/Ferguson
Lagerbäck/Söderberg
Ten Cate/Rijkaard
Regarding your attacking options I've always wondered why two of your best strikers, Kevin Philips and Jamie Vardy, hardly played for the national team. I have not seen Toney but I've read a lot about him and am looking forward to see what all the hype is about. Right now I have a mental image of Toney being the new Defoe, a good striker albeit not world class, but I don't have a clue really.
I'm not having a go at you here at all .. but are we really calling Southgate a charismatic leader?
I honestly don't see any charisma whatsoever?
Would be interesting to see if such a dynamic would work at international level, I think it's an idea worth exploring, Southgate and a good tactical person could be the answer
Yeah that made me tick too
He's instilled a good atmosphere and created a positive environment, and I'm sure that did require a lot of work, but he's not a charismatic leader in the mould of Zidane or Pep or others. Which shouldn't necessarily be held against him, if he ticked most of the boxes and had deputies to lead on the field.Haha, no worries. Perhaps charismatic was the wrong word. How about decent? As in a decent man. What I was getting at is that he seems to have united the dressing room and that is a leadership skill in itself no matter if we call it charismatic or being decent or even likeable or trustworthy.
It has worked very well before at international level
Löw/Klinsmann (Germany 06), Lagerbäck/Söderberg (Sweden 02/04)
I'm sure there are many other examples out there.
Yeah I'm not having a go at him or something but calling him charismatic isn't doing him any favors.
@1:25 in this video for example
Even if you subscribe to the nonsensical "national team coaching is all about vibes" argument, then you'd have to admit that Southgate's ability to increase the vibes to a trophy winning level isn't enough. Therefore, the conclusion should be that he needs to be moved on for not bringing enough vibes to the team.
Unless those people think that Southgate has another vibe level that he just hasn't decided to bring out yet, that is.. Posts that feel sexual material right here...
Unless those people think that Southgate has another vibe level that he just hasn't decided to bring out yet, that is.. Posts that feel sexual material right here...
Just can't ever imagine the FA demanding anything from him,give the impression of wet lettuces when it comes to that
In that case there's no other option than him finally working on his micro decisions during key matches, six to eight years is fair amount of time to do something about it without repeating history. With Bellingham and Foden developing further perhaps it will be easier, but he needs to also make that step forward himself.
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I wouldn't necessarily agree, I think tactics and game management and player selections in knockout football is most important above all else.
It's not like club football where you have to manage more things like transfers, building and keeping a squad happy etc.
A most recent comparison would be Ole - very nice guy, liked by everyone in the team. Okay tactically at times, especially when playing counter attacking football. But despite having some good tactical coaches on his staff, he never figured out how to dominate games. Worse, he was distinctly mediocre in the transfer market.
International football isn't as diverse as that, where for example you can mask some tactical deficiencies with excellency in the transfer market (e.g. Moyes). When you have already have a great generation of players, the strength of the coach tactically, choosing the right starting XI and the right subs is absolutely crucial. You can be a nice guy but being nice won't make you win anything.
Source: Telegraph
This says everything you need to know about Southgate. The guy he took to the World Cup, returns so out of shape and overweight that Pep won’t even let him train with the team
I think it says more about Phillips to be honest. The team looked fit, or at least it didn't let England down this time.
Fact is Phillips has sat around all season not playing any football, on the treatment bench, goes to the WC, probably hopeful of a few minutes and all he got was a meaningless sub appearence. Probably at a bit of a low ebb in his career and lacking some motivation.
Fact is Phillips has sat around all season not playing any football, on the treatment bench, goes to the WC, probably hopeful of a few minutes and all he got was a meaningless sub appearence. Probably at a bit of a low ebb in his career and lacking some motivation.
And Rashford gets snubbed in favour of an out-of-form player who’d only just returned to the country the day before. Joke manager.
Oh, it definitely says A LOT about Phillips, no doubt about that. But it certainly says quite a few about Southgate, as well.
Southgate came in at the right time where England have a very talented group. And people thought that Southgate is a very good manager.
They were knocked out of every major tournament because of Souhtgate's negative football and not capable of managing well in the in games changes.
I really think England can do much better with a more proven manager.
Southgate style of play is already obselete. No EPL will take him as manager as more and more teams are now playing attacking high intensity pressing football rather than Southgate's defensive side ways passing football.
They were knocked out of every major tournament because of Souhtgate's negative football and not capable of managing well in the in games changes.
I really think England can do much better with a more proven manager.
Southgate style of play is already obselete. No EPL will take him as manager as more and more teams are now playing attacking high intensity pressing football rather than Southgate's defensive side ways passing football.
The team will have to carry Southgate and win something despite him. Southgate did not make any correct moves either in the Euros final or in the World Cup finals. Games were there to be won but he opted for cautious pragmatism, relying on Individual Brilliance to win the day. A more astute manager would have made bolder attacking plans, capitalized on opponent weaknesses, selected a faster starting side that would take the game to their opponents, and brought on fresh legs when momentum shifted or energy waned.
He did not. He lost a final against an utterly spent Italian side. He lost to a France team that was about equal man for man, (I’d say France was a lot better team and English stars just didn’t turn up) but whose manager got the big calls right. Southgate can manage a team to beat a lesser opponent - anyone can fecking do that - but he never has a clue when the opponent is even slightly better. He tried, he failed. Get someone else if you want to beat teams better than England.
He did not. He lost a final against an utterly spent Italian side. He lost to a France team that was about equal man for man, (I’d say France was a lot better team and English stars just didn’t turn up) but whose manager got the big calls right. Southgate can manage a team to beat a lesser opponent - anyone can fecking do that - but he never has a clue when the opponent is even slightly better. He tried, he failed. Get someone else if you want to beat teams better than England.
Just look at this quote.
Mate, when you had him you barely played him.
You would rather play an out of form, out of practice Sterling than give your tournament top scorer a chance to run at the French fullback for more than 5 minutes.
Honestly, Southgate just rubs me up the wrong way. Constantly searching for excuses. Backs his favourites to the hilt but has no time for anyone else.
The answer is still a resounding yes.
He’s an absolute Cnut. Rashford put off having an op to be available for England, only to spend the entire tournament on the bench, then thrown out to the wolves in the final. Not trusted to play a minute but you can take a penalty? Then Southgate came out and defended ONE of the three penalty takers against an expected racial backlash....justifying racism against the other two.
Feck him Marcus. He’s a self-obsessed wanker.
Rashford should retire from international duty until Southgate leaves.
Southgate is basically just Hodgson and Allerdyce, he picks the same players no matter what
Southgate is basically just Hodgson and Allerdyce, he picks the same players no matter what
How does he play Kalvin Phillips and Maguire after they hardly have played this season
First win in Italy for 40 years or something and he gets zero credit as usual.
Is this a joke? This Italian team is probably the worst it’s ever been and we scrape a win. What shall we do? Get the bus parade out?
I don’t agree with the Maguire selection but at least he has featured in some games. Phillips just played more minutes against France than he has done in the PL all season.
Southgate is awful, Rashford comments sum up how much of a useless cnut he is.
Agreed. He should dip into that absolutely incredible pool of world class players we have in both positions instead
Oh but remember Italy are rubbish though.
Same reasoning for us getting to the Euro final, everyone else is rubbish.
And we have possibly the biggest set of world class talents ever assembled.
Or something.
Exactly! I do wonder about some people.Agreed. He should dip into that absolutely incredible pool of world class players we have in both positions instead
We’ve all worked with or under a middle manager that tries to maintain the veneer of having an ounce of intelligence ability via passive aggression and subtle interferences that the people working with and under them aren’t quite good enough for them to achieve their targets.
Southgate is exactly that person.
Wasn’t there once a rumour about Southgate being linked to us, or have I imagined it
Not great from Southgate, he isn't that simple to not expect his words to be dissected and twisted by the media.
But he only has one tournament left so best to stick with Maguire and Phillips and hurry the process along to the day he is sacked.
But he only has one tournament left so best to stick with Maguire and Phillips and hurry the process along to the day he is sacked.
Southgate seems to be a meticulous planner, but rubbish at reacting to changes on the pitch in game time.
Mancini had made 5 subs by the time Southgate made his first one, a similar miscalculation he made in the previous Euro's final. Kevin Phillips played more minutes in this one international game than he had for his Club since his return from injury, and was clearly 'blowing'.
Remarks about Rashford uncalled for, after Marcus had risked his career to be available for England last time, but never really got used properly. International managers have to expect from time to time top players, especially towards the end of a season, will not want to take risks. Harland not turning out for Norway!!
Mancini had made 5 subs by the time Southgate made his first one, a similar miscalculation he made in the previous Euro's final. Kevin Phillips played more minutes in this one international game than he had for his Club since his return from injury, and was clearly 'blowing'.
Remarks about Rashford uncalled for, after Marcus had risked his career to be available for England last time, but never really got used properly. International managers have to expect from time to time top players, especially towards the end of a season, will not want to take risks. Harland not turning out for Norway!!