Is Gareth Southgate a shiite England manager?

Theonas said:
I think international management is just a different animal. Look at the past WC winners from Scaloni, Deschamps, Löw, Del Bosque, Lippi, Scolari or Jacquet. How many of them had the bolded part before taking on their national teams. Maybe only Del Bosque and Lippi. Scolari had a decent career at club level and Deschamps did well with Monaco but apart from that, hardly anything stands out really. Southgate should not be judged on whether he's as good as the likes of Pep when it comes to pedigree and tactics as there is less of that on the international stage and more of the abstract qualities like squad harmony, setup, chemistry, managing the media and journalists, understanding the local culture, etc... Of course you still want a tactically competent manager as there will be games when that comes in handy but out of all the qualities required, it is less on the forefront than it would have been at club management. It's just two very different jobs.
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Completely agree with this. System managers don't tend to fare well in international football, you only have to look to Spain and Germany's efforts in the world cup to see it may not be successful at international level. The manager doesn't get enough time with the players to implement a different style and get everyone singing from the same hymn sheet. Squad Harmony and a pragmatic style seems to be a recipe for success at international level and they are 2 things which Southgate seems to really excel at, which probably goes some way to why he's England's second best manager off records. Mourinho to me would be an ideal international manager, short tournament cycle so he wouldn't get the usual fall out after 2 years, great in game management and tactically astute to send a team out to mitigate against the other sides weapons, if I was portugal i'd be going all out to make this happen.

Southgate needs to improve his in-game tactics, no doubt, but I have no issue seeing him carry on post-world cup. Who else would we replace him with? I'm of the opinion that we should be looking at Englishmen for the role and there's not very many about. Howe would be an ideal choice, but he's not going to leave one of the most exciting jobs in club football. Potter is at Chelsea and i'm not sure he's an ideal candidate anyway. Maybe Michael Beale as an outside choice depending how he gets on with Rangers? What you're left with after those are failures and cast-offs, so in my opinion we're better off with the devil you know, until someone who would be an upgrade becomes available.
 
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Lee565 said:
He was at fault for France first goal, it's small margins like this that make the difference to losing and winning, if he was a top keeper he would have takers from top clubs but nobody seems interested in him
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That is incredibly harsh and in the same game Englands only world class player missed a penalty!
 
SilentWitness said:
That is incredibly harsh and in the same game Englands only world class player missed a penalty!
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Goal shouldn’t have stood anyway, given the very obvious foul on Saka at the start of the move but, even aside from that, I don’t recall thinking at the time that it was one Pickford should have saved. Didn’t it go through a defender’s legs as well?
 
Doracle said:
Goal shouldn’t have stood anyway, given the very obvious foul on Saka at the start of the move but, even aside from that, I don’t recall thinking at the time that it was one Pickford should have saved. Didn’t it go through a defender’s legs as well?
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Armchair goalkeeping
 
GazTheLegend said:
I did see he'd saved a LOT of shots, but the stats I was looking at both those keepers had better save %. I didn't see the xG one unfortunately but that's quite interesting. Kind of damning of the Everton defence of course ...


This is unironically exactly how I felt about Solskjaer though. He finished 2nd and 3rd. So he did well but he was still etc etc
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Imagine if he had actually won anything.
 
Southgate’s biggest achievement is building a team rather than a collection of individuals. That may not sound like much but no England manager since Venables nearly 30 years ago has achieved the same level of cohesion. His biggest weakness is in-game management but that makes him flawed rather than “shite”.
 
Should've gone in 2018. Definitely after 2021.

The next Euros will be the same as Euro 2020 and the 2022 World Cup. We have the squad to win, but zero chance with this manager.
 
Yep, he ain't winning you squat. And with the kind of talent he has it's laughable that he's still in the role.
 
balaks said:
That is so wrong I can hardly understand how you would think that. The overall standard of teams in international football is so much higher today than it was even 10 years ago - you only need to look at the performances of some of the smaller nations in the recent world cup and so on to see the development.
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Sorry, cannot agree with this. Germany, Spain, Italy, Netherlands... all are going through periods of transition... none of these footballing powerhouses are close to where they were a decade ago. I'd add Romania, Czech Republic to that list...

England have never had a better opportunity to clean up with some big trophies. Southgate is now on tournament campaign number four.....
 
Jeffthered said:
Sorry, cannot agree with this. Germany, Spain, Italy, Netherlands... all are going through periods of transition... none of these footballing powerhouses are close to where they were a decade ago. I'd add Romania, Czech Republic to that list...

England have never had a better opportunity to clean up with some big trophies. Southgate is now on tournament campaign number four.....
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Absolutely agree. Spain and Germany dominated international football for 2 decades. They are not bad sides but they are no where near the peaks. Germany has Havertz and Werner up front ffs and Gnabry is overrated. If we are to assume our squad is a challenger then we shouldn’t see them as a threat, theoretically speaking and with all due respect to them. Spain.. lost to fecking Scotland. Netherlands haven’t been strong in 10? Years. Belgium are declining. You have to say the top 3 are France, Brazil (at least talent wise) and Argentina. There’s no reason we can’t challenge them but we won’t.
 
Southgate is in my opinion a very limited manager. What he excels at is being able to bring individuals together to form a cohesive squad and he has a reasonable plan A. He however, as a very limited understanding of how to change tactics away from his Plan A. This for me is why he'll always have England getting through the qualifiers and past teams he/we should beat in the tournaments. However, when he is required to change a game from the bench, he gets lost.
 
Dave Smith said:
Southgate is in my opinion a very limited manager. What he excels at is being able to bring individuals together to form a cohesive squad and he has a reasonable plan A. He however, as a very limited understanding of how to change tactics away from his Plan A. This for me is why he'll always have England getting through the qualifiers and past teams he/we should beat in the tournaments. However, when he is required to change a game from the bench, he gets lost.
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Agreed. Southgate has command of the basics and has done a nice job of cultivating the British media, but he's not the kind of manager who makes the whole greater than the sum of the parts, nor does he have any demonstrable ability to overcome superior opposition.
 
Jeffthered said:
Sorry, cannot agree with this. Germany, Spain, Italy, Netherlands... all are going through periods of transition... none of these footballing powerhouses are close to where they were a decade ago. I'd add Romania, Czech Republic to that list...

England have never had a better opportunity to clean up with some big trophies. Southgate is now on tournament campaign number four.....
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This is true Southgate is somewhat a failure having not won anything under the circumstances. People can talk about the progression he's made, but that's underpinned by assessing the performance of his predecessors who also failed to deliver.

The only perspective I can see where Southgate's time could be viewed as partially successful is if the team at his disposal was significantly lacking in quality but that's not entirely the case. If the FA had any ambition they would have sacked him already, the criteria for Gareth should be this either he wins the Euro 2024 or he's out. Then the past failures are permissable as he would have earned some credit towards moving forward.
 
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