Is Gareth Southgate a shiite England manager?

I don't like when people question some things regarding my NT so i am not trying to be smart regarding England but why people question Southgate this much? England was a team that played best football on this World cup. Were dominant in all games before France and against France, England played some good football.
France is the most complete team in the world. No shame in losing against them.

Its not about shame, its about winning.
You said it yourself, we played as good as anybody, yet once again we come home empty-handed.
We have a bench that can make the difference between winning and losing, yet GS repeatedly refuses to give them time to make an impact.

Last 2 tournaments we had as good a chance as anyone of lifting those trophies. He simply isn't brave enough to go for the win in those situations.

I don't see him suddenly changing, so until we change him we will never know how good this squad really is. I don't know who to replace him with, but I'm convinced if we keep Southgate we can only really expect more of the same.
 
Disagree with this part. 1) It was the wrong formation and the wrong tactics. 2) Mount and Foden operate with different roles so it’s virtually impossible to say one should have played over the other. They can play in the same team if set up correctly. But yes Foden is the better player.

Regarding formation.

He chose to bring 4 cms with one 1 not being fit or match ready for the entire tournament. First mistake.

His next mistake was to play 3 flat midfielders and attempt to shoehorn a 10 (Mount in this case) into one of the spots. Mount, ignoring the fact that he is completely out of form, is better as an inside forward.

Third mistake. Relying heavily on Henderson to fix the first two mistakes. This is by no means Hendersons fault, but he is a 6 and at this point in his career shouldn’t be asked to dictate the phases of play for the team. He was made to press, run between the lines, alter the flow of the game, organize the team and contribute to the final third. Guess he didn’t speak to Klopp at all about what Henderson can actually bring to the team.

His fourth mistake. Selecting too many 10’s. Maddison and Gallagher unsurprisingly got 0 minutes in the tournament. Maddison a LW/AM is not as good as Foden, Grealish or Rashford and cannot play CM. Seems like a media pick because I called it before a ball had been kicked he wouldn’t play. If Southgate had gone with a 10 in his system, he may have seen some minutes. Gallagher.. inexperienced and positionally too sloppy to play CM. Wants to be in the action and leaves too much space.

Ultimately it’s clear he wanted Bellingham to be his main man. A dynamic exciting box to box midfielder and he went for 4-3-3 to try and get the best out of him. Jude had a great tournament and can leave proud of what he achieved but this really only worked out for 2 out of 5 games.

From the personnel he selected he was better of going a fluid 4-2-3-1. Make no mistake this isn’t the same as a rigid defensive 4-2-3-1 which everyone has misconceptions about on here. The reason this formation is so widely used is it can seamlessly become different shapes. 5-4-1, 5-2-3, 5-3-2, 4-5-1, 4-3-3, 4-1-4-1, 4-4-1-1 etc based on the flow of the game. With Harry Kane best as a false 9 he should have played Foden at 10 with no set position and had Rashford playing on the left. Harry needs runners cutting inside because he is never in the box.

Starting positions:

———————Pickford——————
Walker—Stones—Maguire—Shaw
————Rice—-Bellingham————
——-—————Foden———————-
Saka————-Kane————Rashford

With Foden drifting all over, when the momentum is with England it still gives Jude the opportunity to bomb forward. Saka can both stay wide and come inside, Harry gets the chance to drop down and Rashford can cut inside. No need to passing between Rice, Maguire and Stones.

Attacking example:

———————Pickford——————
-—Stones—Maguire—Shaw——
————————Rice————————
Walker-——Kane———Bellingham—-
—|——Saka——-Rashford——|——Foden
..|………….\…………………/…………|………
..V…………………………../…………..V………

All of a sudden England have some options in attack and aren’t relying on any one person to make something happen. Rashford was criminally underused and is the perfect foil for Kane. Here Kane is able to play his natural game as is Bellingham and Rashford. Foden or Grealish can create space by forcing teams to follow their movements and suddenly Saka and Rashford can use their pace to get in behind.
Unfortunately Southgate has no concept of tactics and that’s why he should step aside.
I’ll be honest this a level of tactical understanding that I am not qualified to assess. I guess the worry would be that neither is Gareth! Joking aside it looks like an exciting team to watch though you would worry about defending down that left flank against some top opponents. Certainly looks a level beyond ‘let’s get Sterling on there as he’s delivered the goods before’ which I think is arguably the main reason that change was made.

Re: squad constitution im inclined to agree somewhat as there’s little point taking players you are not gonna use. I think Maddison is not as good as the other options but he offers something a bit different. Something that would prob work in Southgate’s favour as some of the other options are so used to playing in their club system they can look a bit confused when playing for England, Foden springs to mind. When he doesn’t have passes on every time he’s in possession it’s a different task to playing at city hence the number of times he ended up giving the ball back to cbs. You would see every time he had quality players around him he comes alive and I noticed combinations of him with particularly Bellingham beat the French press a fair few times.
 
The irony about FA is that they already took the risk and appointed Sarina Wiegman and after one year England Women are champions. Can't see why they can't try this again with men.

Tbh If United can appoint from time to time a decent manager, FA with their funds should be more than able. I do think England got higher ceiling than Croatia who are performing superbly, every tournament. Perfect time to show that with proper management and more relentless mentality.
I don’t know why they don’t do something but maybe they are scarred from Capello and Sven and are too short sighted to see that it needn’t be the same situation.
 
I don’t know why they don’t do something but maybe they are scarred from Capello and Sven and are too short sighted to see that it needn’t be the same situation.
Surely they can't ignore it for so long when even most English clubs are led by foreign managers to CL triumphs. Evidence in their face, time and time again.
 
The irony about FA is that they already took the risk and appointed Sarina Wiegman and after one year England Women are champions. Can't see why they can't try this again with men.

I think this is a great idea! If I had a vote, I'd vote for Sarina Wiegman. If it works, it will be amazing for everyone, real progress!
 
I’ve half joked before would prefer wiegman. Hell why not? Would likely be better and even be an upgrade on Southgate’s progressivism.
What's the joke? Wiegman is a proven winner - she's already a better manager than Southgate.
 
I’ve half joked before would prefer wiegman. Hell why not? Would likely be better and even be an upgrade on Southgate’s progressivism.
She definitely used English disposal to get results and in the end only that gets you trophy.

Southgate more and more becoming moral winner of every tournament. Not a good sign for any team with ambition to finally make history.
 
Surely they can't ignore it for so long when even most English clubs are led by foreign managers to CL triumphs. Evidence in their face, time and time again.
So your choice is one of Ferguson, Benitez, Di Matteo, Klopp and Tuchel
 
What's the joke? Wiegman is a proven winner - she's already a better manager than Southgate.
You’re right it’s only a joke based on a historical context and archaic values. I’d be happy for her to take charge, she would be an appointment truly based on merit.
 
So your choice is one of Ferguson, Benitez, Di Matteo, Klopp and Tuchel
Tbh there are much more decisive managers than Southgate, being able to make well timed subs than just elites.

Sir Gareth staring into the abyss near 70 minutes with his assistant, whispering something to himself becoming a third chapter in the same trilogy of movies. Similar ending with this time growing dissatisfaction.
 
Tbh there are much more decisive managers than Southgate, being able to make well timed subs than just elites.

Sir Gareth staring into the abyss near 70 minutes with his assistant, whispering something to himself becoming a third chapter in the same trilogy of movies. Similar ending with this time growing dissatisfaction.
I'm sure there are but how many of them would take the job, that's the problem, getting someone better
 
From an outsiders perspective, you guys have talent to spare, what you lack is cohesion and identity.

Seeing England play couldn't help but to think about a bunch of rich guys more worried about their current contracts than winning the event. You have AMAZING players, that you really don't value (Saka, Kane, Rashford, Walker, Shaw, Grealish to name a few). The squad on paper is on par with France (except Mbappe, he is special).

What I feel you guys really need is some identity, someone who can instill the us vs them mentality and embrace what it means to be England.

Until then you are destined to play second fiddle to the "top" europeans teams.

Would fancy Wazza as the coach, just because he is a proper lad.
 
The irony about FA is that they already took the risk and appointed Sarina Wiegman and after one year England Women are champions. Can't see why they can't try this again with men.

Tbh If United can appoint from time to time a decent manager, FA with their funds should be more than able. I do think England got higher ceiling than Croatia who are performing superbly, every tournament. Perfect time to show that with proper management and more relentless mentality.

The FA and taking risks don't go together,if they did we may well have had another manager for this tournament
 
Its not about shame, its about winning.
You said it yourself, we played as good as anybody, yet once again we come home empty-handed.
We have a bench that can make the difference between winning and losing, yet GS repeatedly refuses to give them time to make an impact.

Last 2 tournaments we had as good a chance as anyone of lifting those trophies. He simply isn't brave enough to go for the win in those situations.

I don't see him suddenly changing, so until we change him we will never know how good this squad really is. I don't know who to replace him with, but I'm convinced if we keep Southgate we can only really expect more of the same.

The second and third paragraph sums up my concerns perfectly,IF he had learnt from not taking risks against Croatia and shown it against Italy & France then maybe I would have more faith in him.
 
Only loses games against finalists. :wenger:

Did you notice how Deschamps set up his team today?

Possession, Morocco 62%, France 38%.
Griezmann, the famous Third Defensive Midfielder!
Nine players defending, two in attack.

What would the English fans say if Southgate played like this? Even if the opponent was Brazil, not "just Morocco". Even if England was winning. Would people be happy because they are winning? Or would they still complain about "wasting all this attacking talent"?
 
The second and third paragraph sums up my concerns perfectly,IF he had learnt from not taking risks against Croatia and shown it against Italy & France then maybe I would have more faith in him.

But Southgate did what you wanted, didn't he? England played in attack against France. Possession 58% to 42%. More chances than France. More attacking play than France.

And yet, it is France in the final. What would you say if England played Morocco and let Morocco have 62% possession? Cowards?

And what is the lesson to learn from all this? Concentrate more on attacking play? Or concentrate more on defence?
 
The FA and taking risks don't go together,if they did we may well have had another manager for this tournament
True. Default option will always be Southgate, but the moment to fight realistically for trophies is now when Germany and France will need to rebuild their squads very soon and Brazil or Spain are still playing for fun rather than sealing it.

The window of opportunity is probably still there. If Southgate stays, there should be demands of improvement directly to him and his staff.
 
The biggest thing I dislike about him are his subs. They are absolutely atrocious. Italy and France had some of the worst decision making I have seen from a manager.

Italy: Southgate waits until just before penalties to bring on Rashford and Sancho. You are playing against an old and knackered defence and you don't even give these two a go at them? Terrible.

France: Southgate opts for Sterling as his first attacking sub: a player who had not trained for a week, been on terrible form all season and had been on a long flight. I thought it was pretty clear that Rashford should come on when we equalised, but nope. Rashford needs to wait for the 85th minutes. What was he thinking with Grealish, also? What is the point of bringing him on for 2 minutes?

It is like Southgate is trying to be so cautious due to there being the possibility of extra time that he completely forgets you can lose and win in the first 90.
 
Did you notice how Deschamps set up his team today?

Possession, Morocco 62%, France 38%.
Griezmann, the famous Third Defensive Midfielder!
Nine players defending, two in attack.

What would the English fans say if Southgate played like this? Even if the opponent was Brazil, not "just Morocco". Even if England was winning. Would people be happy because they are winning? Or would they still complain about "wasting all this attacking talent"?

I was thinking this last night, i dont think Deschamps is a good manager at all, just lucky he has the players he has at his disposal especially in the forward areas, which goes to show with a bit of luck and the right players you can win trophies without being the greatest manager ever
 
I was thinking this last night, i dont think Deschamps is a good manager at all, just lucky he has the players he has at his disposal especially in the forward areas, which goes to show with a bit of luck and the right players you can win trophies without being the greatest manager ever

I actually think yesterday France won because Deschamps made a very good change in taking off Giroud around 65 mins and sending Thuram and putting Mbappe as a forward instead of a winger. What that did was, allowed Mbappe to shake off his knock, just in time for the winner, plus Thuram was fresh and became a focal point to their attack and ran at their tired defenders, before that Morocco had chances and i felt they will equalize, but after that time they stretched the play and had chances to finish off. That was a bold decision taken by the manager, which i don't think Southgate will ever do.

I am just baffled how a team who gets an equalizer around 55 minutes, on top of the match and having options like Rashford and Grealish on the bench continues to wait till 80 minutes when France take the lead and then put Sterling and Mount and keeps Grealish till last minute, what a brain dead coach. Lastly taking Saka off who was actually the only player running at their defence was another Southgate master class decision. He's Utd's version of Ole for England.
 
You guys just don't understand International football. It's got nothing to do with tactics and being a coach, it's just vibes man. It's all about the good vibes!

(what an absurdly stupid argument).
 
You guys just don't understand International football. It's got nothing to do with tactics and being a coach, it's just vibes man. It's all about the good vibes!

(what an absurdly stupid argument).
also just a kick away from beating France 2-2 apparently
 
The vibes are Southgate missing penalty in 1996 and England can't get over that ever since.

Bonafide football hippies, I swear...
 
You guys just don't understand International football. It's got nothing to do with tactics and being a coach, it's just vibes man. It's all about the good vibes!

(what an absurdly stupid argument).
Eh, it isn't. There is simply not enough time to work on tactics beyond some macro work. It's about selecting the right players, creating the right atmosphere in the team, instill belief, and finally game management. Southgate has shown to be more than good at the first 3 aspects and only fails at the fourth. Which may or may not matter in the end since luck and individual episodes are disproportionately important in single game elimination tourneys
 
Did you notice how Deschamps set up his team today?

Possession, Morocco 62%, France 38%.
Griezmann, the famous Third Defensive Midfielder!
Nine players defending, two in attack.

What would the English fans say if Southgate played like this? Even if the opponent was Brazil, not "just Morocco". Even if England was winning. Would people be happy because they are winning? Or would they still complain about "wasting all this attacking talent"?
Deschamps was very smart. Spain refused to give Morocco the ball and thus they found 11 in defense. Portugal gave the ball away every now and again which ment they hade 8 defenders to get through. France let Morocco have the ball and thus found 5 defenders to get through. Clear which strategy was the best.

Regarding Southgate, I've been listening to English pundits the past few days. A part of me hopes Southgate walks away and England fall into mediocrity again. The man has done very well and is getting lambasted by people that couldn't set up their local pub team. You lost 2-1 to world champions France with the best player in the world Mbappe and were a missed penalty kick away from extra time. That counts for something, it's not like it was 4-0.
 
Eh, it isn't. There is simply not enough time to work on tactics beyond some macro work. It's about selecting the right players, creating the right atmosphere in the team, instill belief, and finally game management. Southgate has shown to be more than good at the first 3 aspects and only fails at the fourth. Which may or may not matter in the end since luck and individual episodes are disproportionately important in single game elimination tourneys

These are the elite, the best of the best around the world and you're telling me that these elite players being managed day by day by the very best world class Managers and coaches can't work on tactics during a 3 week intense period? Don't buy it for one second, it's actually pretty insulting to the footballers in these teams that you think they can't handle it. The usual day by day coaching is something these players should be able to do blindfolded. Southgate isn't a morale officer, he isn't a cheerleader. He's meant to he be the head Manager and coach utilising the group of players and coming up with tactics to handle every situation, having the foresight to be organised and give the players the information they need to get past the toughest opponents. Instead all we're hearing is he's good as keeping players happy and we've had bad luck. It's the usual nonsense used by England Managers in the past. You don't hear other nations complain about bad luck, that's because they understand and know how to progress and win Tournaments.

Southgates a poor Manager. You see that every single time we come up against an organised team. We've played Italy 4 times under Southgate, drawn 2 lost 2. We've played Germany 5 times, won 1, drawn 3, lost 1. We've played Belgium four times, won 1, lost 3. Been beaten by France twice. Beaten Spain once, drawn once and lost once (same record against Denmark). The only team we've got a semi decent record against is Croatia.

There's no doubting Southgates ability to beat teams that we should be beating. His record in general is very good against mediocre teams, it's the record against tougher opponents when tactics and his choices become important that we always fail.
 
But Southgate did what you wanted, didn't he? England played in attack against France. Possession 58% to 42%. More chances than France. More attacking play than France.

And yet, it is France in the final. What would you say if England played Morocco and let Morocco have 62% possession? Cowards?

And what is the lesson to learn from all this? Concentrate more on attacking play? Or concentrate more on defence?

No i dont think he did tbh. France sat back and allowed us to have possession and because of that we created more chances than them.

But, Mount and Sterling? Wtf? Grealish and Rashford were the right subs to bring more directness to our attacking play, and create a better quality of chance. By the time he brings them on in the final few minutes it's too late.

Im all for a defensive approach if it is part of a plan to actually win, as we see with France. They kept it tight, but even when leading still brought on Thuram and the eventual scorer, while moving Mbappe through the middle. Different problems for Morocco to deal with. Took off more defensive minded players and introduced attackers, and it clearly made a difference. Went from nervy to comfortable as a direct result of those positive changes and the timing of them.

Yet, Southgate repeateely doesnt do that, he prefers to accept yet another narrow defeat, and yet again we go home. Id say we have far better options than France on the bench, so how can we continue to be satisfied with him repeatedly not utilising them and failing to win?
 
He dithers way too much over his in-game changes. Even his the decision to swap himself out for another manager is dragging on.
 
What's amazing about all these exchanges is where were the fantastic VIBES when England got pumped four-nil off Hungary again not that long ago?
Fair enough he's done "alright" but he's a coward and his subs are shit, that's enough to bin him off and let's see if someone can sub an attacking player that isn't mason mount or sterling before the 89th or 119th minutes in games for crying out loud

Edit: just looked on the teamsheet for that game and Aaron Ramsdale was playing, wonder if that's why he's not one of Southgates favourites despite clearly being far better than Pickford.
 
These are the elite, the best of the best around the world and you're telling me that these elite players being managed day by day by the very best world class Managers and coaches can't work on tactics during a 3 week intense period?
3 weeks isn't nearly enough time. You have to fo us a lot of the work on fitness for one thing, after that all you get is a few days before the tournament starts then it's mostly rest, recover and get ready for the next game. And look at who the managers are. Tite, Scaloni, Deschamps(out of club football for over a decade), Dalic, Gregagui, etc...these aren't the best of the best, these are what you get at international level. They're good managers, but they're not Guardiola, Klopp or even Ancelotti. England did get one such manager in Capello - how'd that work out?

You'll never see a national side as tactically advanced and sophisticated as City, because national team coaches never have enough time to get their teams to that level

Don't buy it for one second, it's actually pretty insulting to the footballers in these teams that you think they can't handle it. The usual day by day coaching is something these players should be able to do blindfolded.
But there's only so much coaching you can do in one day

He's meant to he be the head Manager and coach utilising the group of players and coming up with tactics to handle every situation, having the foresight to be organised and give the players the information they need to get past the toughest opponents.
And he has done that. Or you think england got to a SF, Final and QF by being a disjointed, uncoached mess carried by individuals? You think england largely outplaying france had nothing to do with Southgate?