Holy amateur psychologist Batman!
Is Gareth Southgate a shiite England manager?
- Thread starter VP89
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Yes obviously Deschamps is a better manager than Southgate... He's won big trophies in club football as a player and a manager and obviously in the international game as well.
England aren't going to hire a French manager... Probably... If there was an English manager with such a record, sign him up. Southgate is probably the best England have got, has won absolutely nothing, which is absolutely pitiful for a country with a big football pedigree.
Perhaps we should all be a bit more like this guy
Do you know the way non English folks say the media and fans overrate their own players …
Ole, Stevie G, Harry Redknapp, Mourinho, Sean Dyche...
Does it though? As you say, England has never really done it on the world-stage. I'd say there's more of a pedigree of choking. The Spurs of international football.
Does it though? As you say, England has never really done it on the world-stage. I'd say there's more of a pedigree of choking. The Spurs of international football.
But isn't the point to strive for better? I mean, I simply can't understand the reasoning that if you have Tuchel available and willing to take over, you still persist with Southgate. Of course, Southgate may turn out to be better fit for England than Tuchel, Pochettino, or any other names that have been mentioned, but I'm pretty confident England would never win anything with Southgate, and they do have the squad that should reasonably be expected to win at some point.
The way I see it, I'd rather risk it with someone else.
I do respect this opinion. You’re absolutely right, you gotta take risks to get some reward. But that also means you run bigger risk of missing the KO stages. I just don’t like people pretending that some random other manager would have won England a major trophy by now. There are no guaranties in international football. It can be like the CL eluding some very good teams no matter what…
Look at the starting XI of each side from the other night and a lot of players are very debatable if you're making a combined team, hence the difference in quality being not too great.
Yup you could make a case for Kane over Giroud, Bellingham over Rabiot, Shaw over Hernandez, Walker over Kounde , Pickford over Lloris and maybe even Saka over Dembele.
It's not like it was vs the strongest french team possible.
If you want more driving force and intangibles, Henderson gets a place over Rabiot and that’s it imho.
I guess the opposite of risk-averse is reckless, and that is equally as dangerous, particularly so when we are not desperate for change.
There are obviously many more talented and experienced coaches out there than Southgate in world football, and many of those would leap at the opportunity, but that doesnt mean they are going to be better at this job. Too many people look only at on-pitch scenarios, and give little thought to what else it must take to not only be a mature face of English football but also to deliver a squad not loaded with pressure and the weight of consistent failure.
The very notable and most overlooked thing that Southgate has achieved is that he has reduced the doubters down to arguing about things that can't be misproven. Starting XIs, choice of subs, timing of subs. All very safe spaces for the armchair expert. The comfort blanket of never being proven wrong. Everybody can feel smug that, had the 'if only' they wanted to happen would have happened, it would surely have turned out well. Its universal.
For the record i do feel its time for a change, and i do see Southgate resigning in the next couple of months. Having said that, I also feel that its FAR from a guarantee that this will be a positive. Ask Sven or Capello or Hoddle or Venables how difficult it is to stop this whole thing from becoming a circus, and ask ourselves whether we want that back.
My choice is Pochettino. He's probably a better coach than Southgate but crucially IMO also the most likely personality to 'get' this job in its entirety. Likeable enough to get respect from the players (for the right reasons), talented enough to maybe squeeze that extra 5% through his ideas, but also humble enough to recognise and continue the work that Southgate has put in everywhere else.
Not really. Some of you say that. Many don’t. Don’t think you can really claim it as the consensus opinion but I imagine that won’t deter you as you seem pretty invested in it. Most England fans seem to have a good understanding of the teams strengths and weaknesses and relative standing. Take the wc2018 pretty much no England fan rated the team as anything beyond good. This squad is very good, it’s self evident.
What exactly were you expecting on a football forum? People just to say the things that you deem to be acceptable and correct?
conjecture about teams and tactics? how dare they?!
The point is its always a safe space. We're all guilty of it. Don't you believe without doubt that if Southgate had played your team and made your subs then we'd have won the game?
I think the mood around the England team has changed from righteous indignation and their inevitable failure to one of satisfaction with their consistently decent performances. Southgate has brought a maturity and reasonableness to fans expectations but there's still a capacity to win a trophy there for sure.
Would stevie g be an upgrade? In terms of player and manager honours along with his status in the English game he tops southgate, problem with him is he would obviously favour liverpool players
I actually don’t no, they could have made those changes and still lost. I believe that if he had made those changes there would have been a better chance of progressing yes. I don’t know, who knows? But there seems to be plenty of people with similar views and I don’t really buy it that they think that way because they are just deluded or entitled. It seems an unnecessary slander to bring into a debate. Personally I’d rather hear it explained why say Sterling was the likely right choice at that moment or some other decision or choice that’s contested.
I never used either word. Deluded or entitled? I fear you missed the point
No chance. I don't rate Southgate much as a tactician, but one thing he did get pretty much on point is his handling of the players and the media. Look at the ruckus Gerrard caused at Villa with the captain situation, by comparison.
If Southgate's stint does end here, there has to be far more inspiring options available than Steven Gerrard. That link must honestly be a piss take
Is Ted Lasso not available?
Maybe. ‘Armchair expert’ certainly sounds like a definition of a deluded person if you ask me.
anyway we both agree it’s maybe time to see what a new manager could do so we agree sort of.
I'd say if you got 100 people randomly off the street about 70 of them would be far better than Southgate.
Actually, sorry I forgot he is GOATed and should be given a contract extension.
This is what it must have felt like to be a Liverpool fan when Ole was at the wheel.
You'd have Rooney over Gerard, surely?
If you are being unkind, GS benefited from an extremely kind draw in 2018. In 2021 he had home advantage. In 2022 he achieved par England performance. You can make the statistical case for him being average but it's easier to say he's performed higher than expectations whether by luck or not. And yet France didn't look that much better - only a little. Mbappe was the main difference really.
All of that overlooks that England do look better than ten years ago. But they also don't look like winners. That's what it boils down to. Better but not winners. For that reason I guess Tuchel is the obvious choice of the names being thrown around.
End of the day the players lack self belief. Can the manager fix that? Not sure.
All of that overlooks that England do look better than ten years ago. But they also don't look like winners. That's what it boils down to. Better but not winners. For that reason I guess Tuchel is the obvious choice of the names being thrown around.
End of the day the players lack self belief. Can the manager fix that? Not sure.
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He’s Sven without tactical acumen or cocksmanship.
Pure vibes.
Pure vibes.
But England completely outplayed France. On a normal day it’s probably 2-0 or 3-1 on the balance of play. There surely can’t be any doubt about that? So do you think Southgate is a tactical genius?
I think most people would have 6 or 7 England players in a combined team - Pickford, Walker, Maguire or Stones, Shaw, Bellingham, Kane and Saka significantly outperformed their counterparts.
Obviously it’s a lot closer with the likes of Pogba, Kante and Benzema fit, which is why it was a particularly irritating defeat.
No I think he did well with the players he had over the years. Overachieved in 2018 and to an extent 2021. Went out at the quarters this year which is their level.
I also don’t think we watched the same game in Saturday. It was a close game. England did well but not even close to completely outplayed
It was a reasonable close game in the grand scheme of things but bearing in mind it was probably the two best sides in the tournament facing off, it was far more one-sided than I expected. After the first 20 minutes, the left side of France’s defence spent the entire match resorting to desperate fouls and France created very little.
I don’t think this England squad is quite as good (yet) as some people are suggesting but I think it was still the best squad in a slightly weak tournament. It’s a great chance missed.
I think the players level of belief stems firstly from the manager. The manager has to be first to show belief, and by not utilising our attacking options in an attempt to win these matches simply sends the wrong message for me.
Lack of faith, courage, whatever u want to call it. He just doesn't seem willing to risk making positive changes when it really matters.
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He is as mediocre as a coach as Memphis is mediocre as a player. You could do better than him, Tuchel is available FFS.
I don’t think Tuchel is particularly suited for international management. Good manager, but international is almost a very different role to club level. I mean I wouldn’t say no to it.
Even if we looked at English managers. I rate Potter above Howe, but think Howe would do better with England.
Ancelotti with Brazil is a very worrying prospect; think it would suit him very well.
Pickford, Walker, Stones, Maguire, Shaw; Henderson, Rice, Bellingham; Saka, Kane, Foden.
Lloris, Kounde, Upamecano, Varane, T. Hernandez; Tchouameni, Rabiot; Dembele, Griezmann, Mbappe; Giroud.
If you were making a combined team of those starting XIs for a match on the same day…. on paper realistically you’d consider Walker, Rice, Bellingham, Kane and Foden. I wouldn’t say it is a sure thing most people would pick 6-7 England players. At best five get in, and even then it’s debatably less.
I disagree with your going deep into tournaments consistently statement. Of his three tournaments, he went deep twice. And one of those was effectively a home tournament. England has gone deep in both of our other home tournaments, so I don’t think Southgate managed anything exceptional in 2020. I think the credit belongs to the home supporters first and foremost.
I’m not saying he’s shit. He’s not, but I think he has peaked.
Exactly.
I think Southgate has done really well to bring the unity so lacked in the England squad in previous teams. He's also done the best on getting the media on his side, which is no easy thing to do.
But England won't win anything with him as manager. He did well to raise the floor of this England team, now for the FA could find someone who could bring that extra 5% to go all the way
Wait.. so he's still hired??
I am praying he calls it a day,however fear he won't because no English options available to take the job
Yeah the inability to change and make effective subs at the right time issues need drilling into the heads of Southgate FC
He knows full well he’s staying on. This is just the little song and dance he does to maintain his curated considerate and thoughtful manager facade.
OK will give you a couple of options but none English because either unsuitable or still in jobs
Pochettino
Tuchel
There has also been a suggestion that Deschamps could be replaced by Zidane after the World Cup.
Yes I would like to see either Howe or Potter get it,however I like said above neither will leave their current club roles.