International peak draft

I will stop nationalism and enter the global market.
 
Downcast said:
A new country enters the draft.
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Think my team is the only one which has 7 players from different nationality. Something that will probably change in my next pick.

As for Poland it entered the draft in R6 when Moby picked Lato.
 
Annahnomoss said:
So I've been watching the 1958 World Cup for a while now and I am a bit shocked how Garrincha was named in the team of the tournament for his three assists. Hamrin and X both had an absolute stellar tournament leading their team with a type of influence Garrincha wasn't close to. Hamrin scored 4 and assisted 3 while X scored 6 goals in 6 games and both had tournaments about as good as they come.

LW of the tournament, Skoglund, was more productive than Garrincha with his 1 goal and 3 assists. Anybody else agree about Garrincha's 58? He was still himself, trying to produce a goal/assist every time he touched the ball but his style needs him at his peak for him to not just be wasteful.

His importance was huge and the youthful energy/flair he brought to the team with Pele can't be understated, but in terms of performances it wasn't the same story. Not that he was bad by any means, he was very good, but there were two even better right wingers that World Cup.
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Well since I have picked him, I'll try and defend my man here. Strictly speaking for 58 (as he was on a different level in 62), he was probably not the best player in terms of output but he was arguably the most exciting player in there along with Pele. His impact definitely went beyond the pure numbers of goals/assists etc.

Take for example the fact that he didn't scored or provided an assist at his debut against USSR, but he along with Pele displayed the level of football genius which bambozzeled then Olympic champions USSR. Despite of Striker xxx scoring both the goals, it was clear who was the star of that game. USSR had a formidable defense with mythical Lev Yashin guarding the goal.
Brazilian Left winger xxxx himself freely admits it. “The Soviets’ training camp was around 200 metres from ours, and our building had a second floor. Before the game I watched from above as those red shirts ran tirelessly in the morning, then ran tirelessly in the afternoon. I thought to myself, ‘oh my Lord, don’t these guys do anything but train? How is it possible?’”
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and then after the game -
“It was a fantastic game, especially the opening minutes,” enthused left winger xxxx. “I’m not ashamed to say that for those minutes I was nothing more than a spectator on the pitch. The ball didn’t leave the right flank where Garrincha, Pele and Didi were. It was beautiful. And the Soviets had no answer,”
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“Garrincha is truly frightening. I’ve never seen anyone like him.”
Gavril Katchalin, USSR coach, speaking after the match
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Similarly after Wales game, where he again didn't have any goal or assist -
"Garrincha was more of a danger than Pelé I believe at the time, a phenomenon, capable of sheer magic."
— Wales defender Mel Hopkins who faced Garrincha in 1958.
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He was very decent in the France game as well.

Esp check out the chances he created at 0:29, 2:18, 2:52, The Brazil goal resulting from his cross at 3:01, hitting the bar at 3:49

And as you mentioned he provided 2 assists against Sweden in final.

From whatever I've seen of 58 Garrincha was absolutely scintillating. As for why he was selected in the ToT over more productive winger in Hamrin or X, I am not sure. May be they put more weightage on the performance in final or may be they did not put that much worth on sheer numbers. I didn't see Sweden/Germany games so may I can't really judge Harmin or X's performance compared to Garrincha. May be they were more deserving, but I would just say that Garrincha was one of the very best players in that world cup.
 
Tuppet said:
Well since I have picked him, I'll try and defend my man here. Strictly speaking for 58 (as he was on a different level in 62), he was probably not the best player in terms of output but he was arguably the most exciting player in there along with Pele. His impact definitely went beyond the pure numbers of goals/assists etc.

Take for example the fact that he didn't scored or provided an assist at his debut against USSR, but he along with Pele displayed the level of football genius which bambozzeled then Olympic champions USSR. Despite of Striker xxx providing the goals, it was clear who was the star of that game. USSR had a formidable defense with mythical Lev Yashin guarding the goal.

and then after the game -



Similarly after Wales game, where he again didn't have any goal or assist -


He was very decent in the France game as well.

Esp check out the chances he created at 0:29, 2:18, 2:52, The Brazil goal resulting from his cross at 3:01, hitting the bar at 3:49

And as you mentioned he provided 2 assists against Sweden in final.

From whatever I've seen of 58 Garrincha was absolutely scintillating. As for why he was selected in the ToT over more productive winger in Hamrin or X, I am not sure. May be they put more weightage on the performance in final or may be they did not put that much worth on sheer numbers. I didn't see Sweden/Germany games so may I can't really judge Harmin or X's performance compared to Garrincha. May be they were more deserving, but I would just say that Garrincha was one of the very best players in that world cup.
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The '58 tournament was one of the most brilliant ones ever in terms of stand out performances. Kopa and Fontaine did something historical, Didi-Pele-Garrincha were great too and it just happened to be a tournament where three RW's were fantastic.

In my opinion the other two had better performances than Garrincha but he was also one of the stars of the tournament.
 
International Peak Draft

EAP 1. J. Cruyff 2. Cafu 3. L. Messi 4. J. Masopust 5. B. Schuster 6. U. Seeler 7. O. Ruggeri

Sjor/Physio 1. F. Beckenbauer 2. E. Figueroa 3. A. Iniesta 4. L. Figo 5. P. Lahm 6. M. Coluna 7. J. Nasazzi

Isotope 1. D. Maradona 2. E. Davids 3. R. Baggio 4. S. Kocsis 5. D. Passarella 6. C. Gentile 7. A. Nesta

2Mufc0 1. Pele 2. P. Rossi 3. R. Rivellino 4. R. Koeman 5. Dunga 6. G. Zambrotta 7. A. Pirlo

Tuppet 1. M. Garrincha 2. Romario 3. N. Santos 4. F. Puskas 5. J. Bozsik 6. V. R Andrade 7. J. Santamaria

Pat Mustard 1. M. Platini 2. F. Cannavaro 3. L. Thuram 4. M. Kempes 5. B. Lizarazu 6. P. Elkjaer 7. PENDING

Skizzo 1. L. Ronaldo 2. Rivaldo 3. Ronaldinho 4. A. Cabrini 5. J. Kohler 6. T. Burgnich 7. M. Tardelli

Enigma 1. G. Müller 2. B. Moore 3. P. Maldini 4. Didi 5. H. Stoichkov 6. M. Amoros 7. Z. Boniek

Onenil 1. M. van Basten 2. F. Rijkaard 3. R. Krol 4. P. Breitner 5. R. Gullit 6. v. Hanegem 7. B. Laudrup

Mazhar/Arbitrium 1. Jairzinho 2. J. Neeskens 3. Zico 4. D. Santos 5. Gérson 6. W. Schulz

Joga Bonito 1. F. Baresi 2. G. Facchetti 3. P. Falcao 4. B. Charlton 5. K. Rummenigge 6. B. Vogts

Gio 1. L. Matthäus 2. M. Sammer 3. Z. Zidane 4. R. Carlos 5. D. Džajić 6. B. Schweinsteiger

Raees/Invictus 1. Eusebio 2. A. Brehme 3. M. Desailly 4. O. Varela 5. J. Tigana 6. G. Bergomi

Annahnomoss 1. K. Hamrin 2. N. Liedholm 3. G. Nordahl 4. G. Gren 5. L. Skoglund 6. O. Bergmark

Moby 1. Xavi 2. G. Scirea 3. C. Alberto 4. L. Suárez Miramontes 5. G. Meazza 6. G. Lato

DownCast 1. J. Fontaine 2. R. Kopa 3. T. Henry 4. L. Blanc 5. G. Netzer 6. KH Schnellinger


Reminder: Please don't hesitate to leave your pick to somebody if you expect to be busy while your turn is coming soon.
 
Arbitrium said:
Which messi are you taking? Cops America 2007 probably his best tournament
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Enigma_87 said:
I agree that 2007 Copa is probably the best from him. Maybe last years Copa as well. Either way better than any of the WC showings :)
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Interesting. I can't agree at all, for me his 2015 and 2016 performances (which are very hard to separate) were head and shoulders above anything else he produced in Argentina shirt, be it 2007 Copa or 2014 World Cup. I sensed that transcendent presence, like when you see Maradona's 86 or Platini's 84, while his 2007 performance was great, but not exactly jaw-dropping in an all-time context (same with the World Cup, where he shouldn't have been awarded the Golden Ball)


 
harms said:
Interesting. I can't agree at all, for me his 2015 and 2016 performances (which are very hard to separate) were head and shoulders above anything else he produced in Argentina shirt, be it 2007 Copa or 2014 World Cup. I sensed that transcendent presence, like when you see Maradona's 86 or Platini's 84, while his 2007 performance was great, but not exactly jaw-dropping in an all-time context (same with the World Cup, where he shouldn't have been awarded the Golden Ball)


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Messi 2016 looks great.
 
harms said:
Interesting. I can't agree at all, for me his 2015 and 2016 performances (which are very hard to separate) were head and shoulders above anything else he produced in Argentina shirt, be it 2007 Copa or 2014 World Cup. I sensed that transcendent presence, like when you see Maradona's 86 or Platini's 84, while his 2007 performance was great, but not exactly jaw-dropping in an all-time context (same with the World Cup, where he shouldn't have been awarded the Golden Ball)


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You have to take in consideration the opposition. In 2015/16 Copa's the only strong team IMO were Chile and he didn't shine against them in either game he played. While in 2007 IMO the competition and teams were stronger.
 
Enigma_87 said:
You have to take in consideration the opposition. In 2015/16 Copa's the only strong team IMO were Chile and he didn't shine against them in either game he played. While in 2007 IMO the competition and teams were stronger.
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He was very good against Chile, specially considering he played with 10 morons in the team and Chile only had to stop him to stop Argentina.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
He was very good against Chile, specially considering he played with 10 morons in the team and Chile only had to stop him to stop Argentina.
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Which year?



If you mean 2016, he was hardly that influential as we know him from Barca. I thought Chile midfielders/defenders shut him out pretty well and he had couple of shots off the target for 120 mins.
Downcast said:
I was also referring to your personal experience ;)
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haha, first time I pick him :)
 
Enigma_87 said:
Which year?



If you mean 2016, he was hardly that influential as we know him from Barca. I thought Chile midfielders/defenders shut him out pretty well and he had couple of shots off the target for 120 mins.
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Yeah i mean 2016, watched that video before i posted to refresh my memory....of course he wasnt in God mode like for Barca as he cant play alone and thats how he needs and plays for Argentina.
Park the bus, 9 men behind the ball and when they win it they give it to Messi to create something on his own and its not that they help im out after he gets the ball. Poor and lack of movement of the ball + wank quality on the ball so they lose 2 of his big strengths - combining with others and playmaking. In a draft game he will most likely have all those qualities around himself so it would be much easier....the way i see it, we pick a player from a specific tourno and his performance in draft will depend of the team in which he plays. He can play better then on specific tourno just like he can play worse.
 
Enigma_87 said:
You have to take in consideration the opposition. In 2015/16 Copa's the only strong team IMO were Chile and he didn't shine against them in either game he played. While in 2007 IMO the competition and teams were stronger.
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2007 Argentina was an overall better team and a better platform for him to shine and it clearly shows. Zanetti/Heinze/Ayala, Cambiasso/Mascherano/Veron, Riquelme and tevez..it was the most exciting NT side of theirs in recent memory imo. For me 2015/16 (and even 2014 WC to an extent) as he had to individually drag the team to the respective finishes...and only to get credit for the final losses. Unfortunate for him, his predecessor set the gold standard in dragging other mugs to a WC victory.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
Yeah i mean 2016, watched that video before i posted to refresh my memory....of course he wasnt in God mode like for Barca as he cant play alone and thats how he needs and plays for Argentina.
Park the bus, 9 men behind the ball and when they win it they give it to Messi to create something on his own and its not that they help im out after he gets the ball. Poor and lack of movement of the ball + wank quality on the ball so they lose 2 of his big strengths - combining with others and playmaking. In a draft game he will most likely have all those qualities around himself so it would be much easier....the way i see it, we pick a player from a specific tourno and his performance in draft will depend of the team in which he plays. He can play better then on specific tourno just like he can play worse.
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Depends on how we judge him, otherwise it's basically an all time draft. To me you can't really call that Argentina side underdogs in the respective Copa's. Brazil are wank since couple of years, the other teams, bar Chile I don't think can boast with bigger talents than Argentina. Sure the NT is far from what he has at Barca, but still I wouldn't call either of his performances great or even close to his prime Barca level.

If we take into consideration his usual Barca level (since he's playing alongside world beaters) than it surely is against the theme of the draft.

Take his Copa 2015 performance in the final. By any means compared to his Barca level he was quite poor, which shouldn't be down only to the team mates using them as an excuse.

For example in 2016 they played against Panama, Bolivia, Venezuela and the United States, bar Chile. By all means their team was a huge favorite in all of those games.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
2007 Argentina was an overall better team and a better platform for him to shine and it clearly shows. Zanetti/Heinze/Ayala, Cambiasso/Mascherano/Veron, Riquelme and tevez..it was the most exciting NT side of theirs in recent memory imo. For me 2015/16 (and even 2014 WC to an extent) as he had to individually drag the team to the respective finishes...and only to get credit for the final losses. Unfortunate for him, his predecessor set the gold standard in dragging other mugs to a WC victory.
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I disagree with this notion - Argentina have the best squad along with Chile during those Copa's. Even if you remove Messi - a team with Di Maria, Higuain, Aguero, Mascherano, Zabaleta, Ottamendi, Rojo - playing for world's top clubs is better than the likes of the States, Panama, Venezuela and Bolivia.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Depends on how we judge him, otherwise it's basically an all time draft. To me you can't really call that Argentina side underdogs in the respective Copa's. Brazil are wank since couple of years, the other teams, bar Chile I don't think can boast with bigger talents than Argentina. Sure the NT is far from what he has at Barca, but still I wouldn't call either of his performances great or even close to his prime Barca level.

If we take into consideration his usual Barca level (since he's playing alongside world beaters) than it surely is against the theme of the draft.

Take his Copa 2015 performance in the final. By any means compared to his Barca level he was quite poor, which shouldn't be down only to the team mates using them as an excuse.

For example in 2016 they played against Panama, Bolivia, Venezuela and the United States, bar Chile. By all means their team was a huge favorite in all of those games.
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Of course tournament performance is crucial but we cant look at those black and white, lets say someone picks Maradona and builds a side where it would be impossible for Diego to shine. Surely you wont look at that team and think of Diego's performance at WC because building teams is pointless then....as i said, player can be better and worse then he was at specific tourno but withing a reasonable boundaries. You cant pick a crap performance on tourno and argue that within your tactic he would shine just like you cant pick a great performer and just assume he would be great in your team.

I didnt comment on other opponents, just focused on Chile and their were a comfortably better team under Sampaoli then Argentina, only difference was Argentina had Messi so all the games were much closer then they should be in reality.

@Downcast of course :)
 
International Peak Draft

EAP 1. J. Cruyff 2. Cafu 3. L. Messi 4. J. Masopust 5. B. Schuster 6. U. Seeler 7. O. Ruggeri

Sjor/Physio 1. F. Beckenbauer 2. E. Figueroa 3. A. Iniesta 4. L. Figo 5. P. Lahm 6. M. Coluna 7. J. Nasazzi

Isotope 1. D. Maradona 2. E. Davids 3. R. Baggio 4. S. Kocsis 5. D. Passarella 6. C. Gentile 7. A. Nesta

2Mufc0 1. Pele 2. P. Rossi 3. R. Rivellino 4. R. Koeman 5. Dunga 6. G. Zambrotta 7. A. Pirlo

Tuppet 1. M. Garrincha 2. Romario 3. N. Santos 4. F. Puskas 5. J. Bozsik 6. V. R Andrade 7. J. Santamaria

Pat Mustard 1. M. Platini 2. F. Cannavaro 3. L. Thuram 4. M. Kempes 5. B. Lizarazu 6. P. Elkjaer 7. P. McGrath

Skizzo 1. L. Ronaldo 2. Rivaldo 3. Ronaldinho 4. A. Cabrini 5. J. Kohler 6. T. Burgnich 7. M. Tardelli

Enigma 1. G. Müller 2. B. Moore 3. P. Maldini 4. Didi 5. H. Stoichkov 6. M. Amoros 7. Z. Boniek

Onenil 1. M. van Basten 2. F. Rijkaard 3. R. Krol 4. P. Breitner 5. R. Gullit 6. v. Hanegem 7. B. Laudrup

Mazhar/Arbitrium 1. Jairzinho 2. J. Neeskens 3. Zico 4. D. Santos 5. Gérson 6. W. Schulz

Joga Bonito 1. F. Baresi 2. G. Facchetti 3. P. Falcao 4. B. Charlton 5. K. Rummenigge 6. B. Vogts

Gio 1. L. Matthäus 2. M. Sammer 3. Z. Zidane 4. R. Carlos 5. D. Džajić 6. B. Schweinsteiger

Raees/Invictus 1. Eusebio 2. A. Brehme 3. M. Desailly 4. O. Varela 5. J. Tigana 6. G. Bergomi

Annahnomoss 1. K. Hamrin 2. N. Liedholm 3. G. Nordahl 4. G. Gren 5. L. Skoglund 6. O. Bergmark

Moby 1. Xavi 2. G. Scirea 3. C. Alberto 4. L. Suárez Miramontes 5. G. Meazza 6. G. Lato

DownCast 1. J. Fontaine 2. R. Kopa 3. T. Henry 4. L. Blanc 5. G. Netzer 6. KH Schnellinger


Reminder: Please don't hesitate to leave your pick to somebody if you expect to be busy while your turn is coming soon.
 
I was shocked Messi went so early myself. Personally i feel there are at least 4-5 tournament performances of unpicked players in last 10 years better than either of Messi Copa's
 
Šjor Bepo said:
Of course tournament performance is crucial but we cant look at those black and white, lets say someone picks Maradona and builds a side where it would be impossible for Diego to shine. Surely you wont look at that team and think of Diego's performance at WC because building teams is pointless then....as i said, player can be better and worse then he was at specific tourno but withing a reasonable boundaries. You cant pick a crap performance on tourno and argue that within your tactic he would shine just like you cant pick a great performer and just assume he would be great in your team.

I didnt comment on other opponents, just focused on Chile and their were a comfortably better team under Sampaoli then Argentina, only difference was Argentina had Messi so all the games were much closer then they should be in reality.

@Downcast of course :)
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Yeah if Diego is misused that goes without saying. The idea behind picking a player who underperformed in certain tournaments and building a case he'd be close to his peak surrounded by better players is however - wrong.

Otherwise you can get a certain Northern Ireland lad, who performed pretty well in the EURO qualifications (I think they are taken into account) and argue your case he'd be peaking in a side full of world beaters.

I'm yet to see Messi being even close to his level internationally, hence I can't put him above greats like Pele, Maradona and Cruyff. Of course personal opinion :)
 
Enigma_87 said:
Yeah if Diego is misused that goes without saying. The idea behind picking a player who underperformed in certain tournaments and building a case he'd be close to his peak surrounded by better players is however - wrong.

Otherwise you can get a certain Northern Ireland lad, who performed pretty well in the EURO qualifications (I think they are taken into account) and argue your case he'd be peaking in a side full of world beaters.

I'm yet to see Messi being even close to his level internationally, hence I can't put him above greats like Pele, Maradona and Cruyff. Of course personal opinion :)
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Thats the thing, i dont think Messi underperformed...nor did i say he would be peak Messi if surrounded with better players but surely he can play better within a better and more suitable setup.

Agree on the last one, internationally he isnt in the tier 1.
 
Enigma_87 said:
I disagree with this notion - Argentina have the best squad along with Chile during those Copa's. Even if you remove Messi - a team with Di Maria, Higuain, Aguero, Mascherano, Zabaleta, Ottamendi, Rojo - playing for world's top clubs is better than the likes of the States, Panama, Venezuela and Bolivia.
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Does it matter that they have a team full of supposedly world class players when they consistently deliver shit performances for their national team?
I mean look at their squad today - Higuain, Aguero, Di Maria, Mascherano - and yet they are in danger of missing out on the World Cup.

Playing against the same teams as in the Copa, in 2018 qualifiers - with Messi 6 games, 5wins and 1 loss, without him - 8g, 1 win, 4 draws, 3 losses
 
Let's leave it for the match thread though
 
Downcast said:
Let's discuss the players during the games :angel:
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harms said:
Let's leave it for the match thread though
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Actually I think its important to discuss some of the general points here to get everyone on the same page.

For instance, for me, I am only judging on the quality the player showed during the tournament not on hypotheticals.

Consider these two points

1) Player A should have had an assist in [Match] if striker didn't completely miss a great chance
2) Player A could have had a Man of the Match performance against [Country] if my Tactic was used instead.

For me, Point 1) is valid for this draft. Point 2) is not valid at all this draft.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Actually I think its important to discuss some of the general points here to get everyone on the same page.

For instance, for me, I am only judging on the quality the player showed during the tournament not on hypotheticals.
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Agree. And as sjor said earlier, you can't pick a player with a good tournament fit him into a different tactic and expect same results. Same as you can't get a shit player performance surround him with GOATs and expect miracles. It's not one or other, but rather a combination of both. You don't really get the perspective if you ignore one. Messi's performance though a level down from his club was still good enough to warrant an early pick.

What I explicitly disagree was with your earlier post that there are 10 modern players more influential than Messi of 2007, 15 or 16.
 
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