Beautiful seeing all the dismay and dissapointment in here this morning.
Well in Cook
Well in Cook
India vs England
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I wouldnt classify Cook as the most talented of this generation of English players let alone all time.
But he's going to end up with all the significant batting records for England in both tests and one-day.
He's awesome.
But he's going to end up with all the significant batting records for England in both tests and one-day.
He's awesome.
It's a batsman's game especially post 2000. Most batsmen in the top 10 PCW ratings have averages around the 50 mark. I read somewhere that statistically it's the best time to be a batsmen since the 30s. Now compare batting averages with bowling averages... Most top quality bowlers are averaging late 20s. I suspect conditions aren't helping bowlers... But yeah, Steyn is the only standout seamer, he'd be a great in any era.
nah, you guys are going to destroy us. Our test side is the definition of mediocrity with no class batsmen and ajmal aside no class bowler.
Cook to score 200+ and also expecting a QuickTime 100 from KP. Endland will bat til just after tea with a lead of 150+
Amazing sequence of innings by Cook on this tour. Reminds me of Michael Vaughan break out series in India in 2002.
Amazing sequence of innings by Cook on this tour. Reminds me of Michael Vaughan break out series in India in 2002.
India's bowlers simply look bereft of ideas and quality. Esp the 2 spinners who look very ordinary compared with Monty.
Just shows how kamikaze bad Endlands first innings in the 1st test was.
Just shows how kamikaze bad Endlands first innings in the 1st test was.
Blaming IPL is a very lazy thing to do. We won the WC last year and were the no.1 test side till last summer even though IPL had started in 2008.
Dearth of spinners in India is due to IPL? I don't think so. Our historical weakness to produce top class pace bowlers is due to IPL? No. Replacing Dravid, Laxman and Sachin in middle order was always going to be a tough task. Everyone said once they leave, we will struggle for some time so I have no idea why the same people are moaning now, not to mention clamoring for Sachin's retirement. This is very much around expected lines.
Personally the biggest thing that worries me is lack of top class spinners in India right now.
Dearth of spinners in India is due to IPL? I don't think so. Our historical weakness to produce top class pace bowlers is due to IPL? No. Replacing Dravid, Laxman and Sachin in middle order was always going to be a tough task. Everyone said once they leave, we will struggle for some time so I have no idea why the same people are moaning now, not to mention clamoring for Sachin's retirement. This is very much around expected lines.
Personally the biggest thing that worries me is lack of top class spinners in India right now.
Well I have to disagree, I do think the IPL is having a huge negative effect.
The only reason that the Test team lasted so long is that you had an immense batting lineup where pretty much your whole top and middle order played to an international level until pushing 40 (and still are in a couple of cases).
The India team now is full of bit part players who can slog a few sixes and bowl 6-8 overs of darts at low economy, but most of the team look fat, lazy and bored at the idea of 5 day games. The effort levels and fight levels are abysmal and they have no clue how to bowl to and stick to a plan, or grind out an innings with the bat.
If India wasn't a nation of 1bn plus people the Test team would make the West Indies look dangerous, there are bound to be a few anomalies when you start with such a huge base at grass roots.
The only reason that the Test team lasted so long is that you had an immense batting lineup where pretty much your whole top and middle order played to an international level until pushing 40 (and still are in a couple of cases).
The India team now is full of bit part players who can slog a few sixes and bowl 6-8 overs of darts at low economy, but most of the team look fat, lazy and bored at the idea of 5 day games. The effort levels and fight levels are abysmal and they have no clue how to bowl to and stick to a plan, or grind out an innings with the bat.
If India wasn't a nation of 1bn plus people the Test team would make the West Indies look dangerous, there are bound to be a few anomalies when you start with such a huge base at grass roots.
I don't get this statement - it only applies to Yuvraj at best as far as i can see?
Ghambir and Sehwag are established test players.
Pujara is in great nick and looks to have a superb temprament, as did Kohil until a few struggle's of late but that happens to everyone.
Dhoni, Yuvraj, Ashwin, Ojha, Sharma all look like one day players to me, they are very, very average and even Kohli and Zaheer look like they don't really want to be there, despite them being excellent players. Tendulkar should have retired about 15 Tests ago and Sehwag is a fat, lazy cricketer with absolutely no application. So yes, Pujara looks pretty good and Gambhir looks well out of form...
I don't particularly rate Monty - him getting so many wickets in this series continues to bemuse me.
Personally, I see India's problems in the bowling department. Batting is generally fine even with Laxman's and Dravid's retirement. Oh, and a general demeanour and attitude of senior cricketers sucks (excluding Sachin).
He's improved immensely since he was last in the side (referring to Monty). He's still kinda one dimensional but he is prepared to flight the odd ball a lot more, and he bowls a very tight line which is hard to score off and builds pressure. Ideal Test bowler and the conditions in the subcontinent suit him perfectly. No way he would ever be taking Swann's place though, he looks short of ideas on seaming pitches where Swann seems capable of taking vital wickets on almost any surface.
I disagree Sults. The team is full of very talented batsmen and hitters, but they lack the attitude and application for Test cricket, with a few exceptions.
India bowled well for 45 minutes this morning but have reverted back to fielding like a bunch of middle aged men and moping around now.
Looking very very good for England.
Looking very very good for England.
What a drop by Sharma 
That is a very very very average and opportunistic assessment. Typical small time mentality. Besides Yuvraj none of the batsmen in that team is a "bit part" player. Even Yuvi himself is a very good batsmen, just not not suited for test cricket. Pujara, Kohli and Gambhir in themselves have more talent than the entire English batting line-up. That is why this so frustrating. If they were average or not better than the English then I, or most of us, won't have any problem with the way things have unfolded.
The problem has been over playing and the lack of fight in this team. For which as much blame goes to the IPL and the administrators as these players. You really have to know the structure of Indian cricket and the Indian mentality to understand what I am saying.
Indian team at the moment is suffering from the same problem that the English football team suffers, they are happy loping around as rich celebrities rather than carry the hunger to defend their nations pride. We are both annoyingly average despite the talent we possess.
Only criticism for England is the surprisingly low averge run rate which is both below India's first in Innings run rate and also below 3 runs per over.
Need to put the foot on the motor at some point.
Need to put the foot on the motor at some point.
The run rate is not an issue, we have numerous stroke makers to come in, and this session has consolidated our position in control of the game.
200 ahead by close of play for no more than 5 down and we're laughing.
200 ahead by close of play for no more than 5 down and we're laughing.
This match has turned to total shit.
Wow...
This is by far the worst India team in my lifetime. Whitewashed in England, whitewashed in Australia, looking second best against England (England!) at home. It's a long way to fall even from a couple of years ago.
The batsmen can't bat, the bowlers can't bowl and the fielders can't field. And Dhoni is maybe the worst wicketkeeper in Tests at the moment.
I put the blame firmly on the Indian batsmen. This is a 500 runs pitch. Gambhir and Sachin should have gone on and scored big after setting themselves up. Putting big runs on the board and tiring England on the field would have put them under a bit of pressure in their innings.
As it stands, you can't really blame the bowlers for toiling against the world's most in form batsman on a flat pitch.
As it stands, you can't really blame the bowlers for toiling against the world's most in form batsman on a flat pitch.
Sharma has actually bowled pretty well, Zaheer has been ok too but the spinners look so average.
Yeah. Flat wicket, very poor first innings.
There are players like Rahane and Badrinath in India, who are more suited to test cricket. They play IPL, I don't think that has hampered them. The onus on selecting others ahead of them is on selectors. Eventually they will get in, just like Pujara has.
Lets not forget we were the number one test team not too long ago and had a great series against a very good SA team in SA.
May turn out to be an excellent wicket for England.
Cook whilst playing well has also been extremely lucky. That's two sitters dropped in this match
April 2nd, 2011 - Indian defeats Sri Lanks to life the World cup.
April 8th, 2011 - Just after 6 days, the feeling of winning the World Cup hasn't sunk in yet, most Indian players start playing in the non-stop nonsense known as the IPL.
May 28th, 2011 - After 51 days of constant and gruesome travelling , the IPL comes to an end. A total of 76 matches were played during this period.
June 4th, 2011 - A week after the IPL ended the Indian team starts a tour of the West Indies with the only T-20.
July 10th, 2011 - 37 days later they finish the tour having played one T-20, 5 ODI's and 3 Tests. They were on the field for 26 days out of the 37.
July 15th, 2011 - Five days since the West Indies ended, India plays it's first 3- day tour match against Somerset.
July 21st, 2011 - Just 4 days later, the first test begins, along with India's nightmare run.
Sept 16th, 2011 - India's Ignominy in England end after playing 3 test, 5 ODI's, 1 T20 and 5 tour matches. On the entire tour India's greatest achievement was to tie an ODI against England. In the 57 day tour India played 34 days of cricket.
Sept 19th, 2011 - The CL T20 begins (another non stop nonsense). KKR, Chennai, RCB and Mumbai are all part of it as are most of India's major cricketers.
Oct 9th, 2011 - The nonsense ends. Mumbai and RCB play in the final. 21 days, 29 matches, relentless travelling across India.
Oct 14th, 2011 - Just 5 days later, India start a home series of 5 ODI and a solitary T-20 against England.
Oct 29th, 2011 - The series ends.
Nov 6th, 2011 - Tour of West Indies begins. 3 tests and 5 ODI's to be played in the series
Dec 11th, 2011 - Tour ends. 20 days of cricket in 37 days.
Dec 14th, 2011 - India is already playing it's first tour match against Chairman's XI in Canberra
Feb 28th, 2012 - Another humiliating tour ends. 4-0 in the test series, 1-1 in T-20's and 3 wins in 8 CB series matches.
March 12th, 2012 - Asia cup begins.
I haven't done the research on the series before the 2011 World cup started but I am sure it's equally brutal.
I don't how long is your "lifetime" but this is not the worst Indian team by any stretch of imagination. Dhoni is an able wicket keeper and a good batsman in Indian conditions. The batting has innumerable talent and the bowling isn't worse than any Indian attack of the past.
This team has clearly been worked like a donkey, lacks the spirit, the top players don't have the balls to decline being part of the IPL and CL T-20's, and the younger players are not hungry enough as the IPL already catapults them into a hero status.
Rohit Sharma is a prime example, he has more talent than anyone I have seen since Tendulakar, but just doesn't have the attitude, desire and dedication to perform at the international level. He doesn't need to, he is already a multi-millionaire.
Blaming the IPL has to be most retarded thing for this debacle is retarded. Out of our batting lineup only Kohli and Pujara came into the team after the IPL and both are very good.
With regards to bowling. Ojha is old school and has been our best bowler throughout this series. Zaheer and Ishant came in the side before the IPL.
The real issues are the poor selection. There's no way in hell that Yuvraj and Dhoni are test match players and yet we are persisting with them.
With regards to bowling. Ojha is old school and has been our best bowler throughout this series. Zaheer and Ishant came in the side before the IPL.
The real issues are the poor selection. There's no way in hell that Yuvraj and Dhoni are test match players and yet we are persisting with them.
So our entire evidence of India not being crap at Tests over the last 18 months is a list of ODI and T20 series and tournament wins? Nice one
That is why I also mention the problems with administration, the structure and the Indian mentality. In this country, we love to worship our heroes. Yuvi came back from first stage cancer, so we as the nation have to pay the price for that. We never prepared for the eventuality of Dravid, Laxman and Sachin's careers coming to an end. We have the "they can be here as long as they want because they have done great for Indian cricket" mentality. Our administrators don't have any foresight and have done feck all to improve cricket at the grass root levels. We are hyper active more than we are pro active.
Rahane, Pujara and Badri are not superstars. I am not saying that they are going to go the same route but as I mentioned in the previous post, Rohit is a prime example. IPL shouldn't get the entire blame but it is a huge part of the whole mismanagement of cricket in India. I wish the ICC would suspend BCCI like the IOC has suspended IOA and now FIBA.
Even after all that, this team should not be in a precarious position against the English. This is just abominable.
So our entire evidence of India not being crap at Tests over the last 18 months is a list of ODI and T20 series and tournament wins? Nice one
We were unbeaten in 13 out of our last 15 test series. Those two horror showings aside, the last couple of years have been amongst the best for Indian test cricket and coincided with our first ever number one ranking.
You could say our standout performers were Dravid and Zaheer during that period, and we're now struggling to replace them. I don't see much fundamentally wrong with this side, lots of potential to reach that level again.
So our entire evidence of India not being crap at Tests over the last 18 months is a list of ODI and T20 series and tournament wins? Nice one
If that's what you got from my post than I can't really help you.
Gambhir and Sehwag's awesome form was also one of the major reasons for our success. In the past, more often than not, those two would demoralize and take the game away from opposition on the first day itself. Batting becomes so much easier for the middle order and the lower middle order after a good opening stand. That helped our bowlers immensely during the successful period. Bowlers bowl differently when they have 500 runs to defend rather than 300. The opposition batsmen have different pressures and the captain can have attacking fields. It's becomes a different ball game. Kumble also mentioned this a couple of times before.
Edit: Also, I don't think all is lost in this series yet. If we can restrict England's lead to 100-125 runs and bat well, anything can happen in this test match. It's high time that Gambhir and Sehwag stood up and be counted.
Well yes, it is a fair point that India pla way too much cricket. But the fact that they have remained mostly successful in ODI and T20 cricket since then suggests that the problems are more with Tests themselves than cricket generally.
The batsmen struggle to buckle down when conditions aren't easy, Sehwag being the perfect example. He has a shockingly poor average outside the subcontinent if memory serves, somewhere around 30 I believe, because he has absolutely no application. He just swats and swipes at everything, which is brilliant when it comes off on flat pitches and mostly leads to India running away with it from very early on. When it's totally inappropriate to the conditions though, like with a swinging new ball in England/NZ/SA for example, he almost inevitably does nothing for entire series at once, and he gets away with it because people say 'oh that's just how he plays'. I think it's symptomatic of most of the current Indian top order, Gambhir, Pujara and (sort of) Tendulkar aside.
On top of that Tendulkar hasn't been scoring anything like the required runs to justify his place in the side, and if he wasn't Sachin Tendulkar he would have been dropped for Rahane about 12 months ago.
The bowlers look so average too. Zaheer is still a very good bowler, but he is now 34 and time waits for no man. He's certainly not the player he was 18 months ago and without him in top form, the Indian attack looks very weak. Sharma is ok too but seems to struggle in the field and with his confidence.
Ashwin is just a nothing player, can sort of bat a bit and is an ok spinner, but he's not doing anything that Herath can't do better and Herath is certainly no Murali. Ojha is ok, but really nothing special and the fact that he is the main man for the Indian attack is a damning indictment. Harbhajan is an absolute shadow of the bowler he was too, which is bizarre as at his age he should just be entering his prime as a spin bowler.
And finally Dhoni. Terrific, brilliant limited overs player who lends an ODI/T20 side fantastic balance, but he can't build an innings well enough to play in Tests, certainly on his form the last few years, he is frankly a pretty poor keeper and with his drops and byes must cost the team probably an average of 40-50 runs per Test. And as a captain he seems to get bored of Test cricket, he lets the game drift far too much which you can afford over 50 overs, but not over 5 days of Test cricket.
I don't see what playing less cricket would do to combat those problems, unless that means cutting out 80% of the limited overs stuff to play more first class cricket.
Money down on England win and series win.