India vs England

Blaming the IPL has to be most retarded thing for this debacle is retarded. Out of our batting lineup only Kohli and Pujara came into the team after the IPL and both are very good.

With regards to bowling. Ojha is old school and has been our best bowler throughout this series. Zaheer and Ishant came in the side before the IPL.

The real issues are the poor selection. There's no way in hell that Yuvraj and Dhoni are test match players and yet we are persisting with them.

It is precisely the cause.

There are problems with the IPL:

It's giving foreign players technique and time to deal with Indian pitches, making the home advantage, a home disadvantage.

It's making our batsmen reckless and inpatient, I wonder if we can correlate the number of test centuries to the years IPL has been introduced?

We a building bowlers, not to out think the opponent, but waiting for the mistake, like they do in the IPL.

The IPL is bad for tests, anyone who plays in the IPL should not be considered for the test squad.
 
It is precisely the cause.

There are problems with the IPL:

It's giving foreign players technique and time to deal with Indian pitches, making the home advantage, a home disadvantage.

It's making our batsmen reckless and inpatient, I wonder if we can correlate the number of test centuries to the years IPL has been introduced?

We a building bowlers, not to out think the opponent, but waiting for the mistake, like they do in the IPL.

The IPL is bad for tests, anyone who plays in the IPL should not be considered for the test squad.

:lol:
 
It's a radical idea, but didn't really hurt England, when they frankly told players not go.

Their best batsman and possibly their best player is an huge advocate of IPL.

De Villiers, Kallis, Du Plessis(Gain recognition due to IPL IMO), Steyn all have shown that playing IPL doesn't really hamper the test match skills.
 
Their best batsman and possibly their best player is an huge advocate of IPL.

De Villiers, Kallis, Du Plessis(Gain recognition due to IPL IMO), Steyn all have shown that playing IPL doesn't really hamper the test match skills.

So basically you named all the south african players. Only pietersen really from England, and frankly really controversially, he also got dropped from the England team for other antics. Cook is England's best batsman mate.

Back in the day, Indian players would come to England and join some of the counties, or maybe some of the Ausie clubs, and get acclimatised to bowling and batting on bouncy pitches. Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman, Zaheer, Kumble all did this..

Now that the IPL is in India, out pays everything else, and demands so much time in the season, it's virtually impossible to get exposed to bouncy pitches. It's only going to get worse for India away. Back to the 80's obscurity I'm afraid.
 
Patel's a player, imo. Think he'll make some runs today.
 
So basically you named all the south african players. Only pietersen really from England, and frankly really controversially, he also got dropped from the England team for other antics. Cook is England's best batsman mate.

Back in the day, Indian players would come to England and join some of the counties, or maybe some of the Ausie clubs, and get acclimatised to bowling and batting on bouncy pitches. Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman, Zaheer, Kumble all did this..

Now that the IPL is in India, out pays everything else, and demands so much time in the season, it's virtually impossible to get exposed to bouncy pitches. It's only going to get worse for India away. Back to the 80's obscurity I'm afraid.

You actually make no sense at all. Not only you're a terrible WUM but you actually know feck all about Cricket.
 
The effect of IPL won't be known till the next generation of batsmen.

Bowlers won't be affected by one additional format.

The present generation of batsmen in our lineup are pre-T20. They're just not very good. Some of them shouldn't even be in a test 11.

Still fingers crossed on Rohit, Rahane.
 
The effect of IPL won't be known till the next generation of batsmen.

Bowlers won't be affected by one additional format.

The present generation of batsmen in our lineup are pre-T20. They're just not very good. Some of them shouldn't even be in a test 11.

Still fingers crossed on Rohit, Rahane.

Stop talking sense.
 
The effect of IPL won't be known till the next generation of batsmen.

Bowlers won't be affected by one additional format.

The present generation of batsmen in our lineup are pre-T20. They're just not very good. Some of them shouldn't even be in a test 11.

Still fingers crossed on Rohit, Rahane.

Stop talking sense.

This is nonsense. Typical arrogance from an Indian fan. I'm an India fan also, the Indian test team is in the worst shape at any point since the early 90's.

This is a lot to do with player retirements. But also, now the clear effect of T20 on the bowlers and batsmen playing in tests and ODI, far more aggressive batting play. ODI scores shot up mega-fold since the introduction of T20 and going mainstream in the IPL. The bowlers are far less aggressive, just more tidy, giving away fewer extras. It's inevitable there will be an impact on tests, current and future players. It has an effect on the ODI, and inevitable on the tests too. To assume there is currently no impact on tests is frankly illogical.

The problem is not the IPL in itself, the problem is T20 and it's location in India. They desperately need to co-ordinate the seasons so that Indian players can go play abroad more, at least get some more exposure. They also should, imo, look at not selecting players on scores, but more on technique.
 
This is nonsense. Typical arrogance from an Indian fan. I'm an India fan also, the Indian test team is in the worst shape at any point since the early 90's.

This is a lot to do with player retirements. But also, now the clear effect of T20 on the bowlers and batsmen playing in tests and ODI, far more aggressive batting play. ODI scores shot up mega-fold since the introduction of T20 and going mainstream in the IPL. The bowlers are far less aggressive, just more tidy, giving away fewer extras. It's inevitable there will be an impact on tests, current and future players. It has an effect on the ODI, and inevitable on the tests too. To assume there is currently no impact on tests is frankly illogical.

The problem is not the IPL in itself, the problem is T20 and it's location in India. They desperately need to co-ordinate the seasons so that Indian players can go play abroad more, at least get some more exposure. They also should, imo, look at not selecting players on scores, but more on technique.
Even if IPL was not there, I don't think many Indian batsmen would play abroad. Our schedule is way too loaded anyway.
 
It's a radical idea, but didn't really hurt England, when they frankly told players not go.
Only reason why England are not supporting IPL is because it coincides with part of their season and because they decided to play lackey to Stanford's millions rather than play second fiddle to BCCI like CA, and CSA did.

Eventually more and more English players are also going to play in IPL, money is simply too good to ignore. Top players earn more playing a month of IPL than they do playing for an year for their country.

Besides which players are people claiming here that got ruined by IPL?

I think an argument can only be made about Rohit Sharma perhaps, who seems unable to adapt to longer formats. If Kohli fails in tests then may be you can add him to the list as well. Someone like Raina never had the technique to play longer version so likes of him don't count. For bowlers it is a non issue like zing said.
 
What the IPL definitely does, as Jaz pointed out, is give foreign players the chance to get used to Indian conditions. I'm sure they learn a lot from the Indian players as well.

Getting to play in India for a month every year certainly demystifies things.
 
Well yes, it is a fair point that India pla way too much cricket. But the fact that they have remained mostly successful in ODI and T20 cricket since then suggests that the problems are more with Tests themselves than cricket generally.

The batsmen struggle to buckle down when conditions aren't easy, Sehwag being the perfect example. He has a shockingly poor average outside the subcontinent if memory serves, somewhere around 30 I believe, because he has absolutely no application. He just swats and swipes at everything, which is brilliant when it comes off on flat pitches and mostly leads to India running away with it from very early on. When it's totally inappropriate to the conditions though, like with a swinging new ball in England/NZ/SA for example, he almost inevitably does nothing for entire series at once, and he gets away with it because people say 'oh that's just how he plays'. I think it's symptomatic of most of the current Indian top order, Gambhir, Pujara and (sort of) Tendulkar aside.

On top of that Tendulkar hasn't been scoring anything like the required runs to justify his place in the side, and if he wasn't Sachin Tendulkar he would have been dropped for Rahane about 12 months ago.

The bowlers look so average too. Zaheer is still a very good bowler, but he is now 34 and time waits for no man. He's certainly not the player he was 18 months ago and without him in top form, the Indian attack looks very weak. Sharma is ok too but seems to struggle in the field and with his confidence.

Ashwin is just a nothing player, can sort of bat a bit and is an ok spinner, but he's not doing anything that Herath can't do better and Herath is certainly no Murali. Ojha is ok, but really nothing special and the fact that he is the main man for the Indian attack is a damning indictment. Harbhajan is an absolute shadow of the bowler he was too, which is bizarre as at his age he should just be entering his prime as a spin bowler.

And finally Dhoni. Terrific, brilliant limited overs player who lends an ODI/T20 side fantastic balance, but he can't build an innings well enough to play in Tests, certainly on his form the last few years, he is frankly a pretty poor keeper and with his drops and byes must cost the team probably an average of 40-50 runs per Test. And as a captain he seems to get bored of Test cricket, he lets the game drift far too much which you can afford over 50 overs, but not over 5 days of Test cricket.

I don't see what playing less cricket would do to combat those problems, unless that means cutting out 80% of the limited overs stuff to play more first class cricket.

T-20 and Test cricket are different sports. One is wam bam thank you mam while the other is equivalent getting into a long-term relationship. I am sure you are old enough to know the difference. :) Test cricket requires a significant change in technique and application. It becomes harder when you have to do it constantly, without proper warm-up games to adjust.

Sehwag is not a perfect example. He is what he is and has never pretended to be anyone else. He is an instinct batsman, who would lose his mojo is you ask him to buckle down and play like Dravid. He has done exceptionally well everywhere besides the three countries you mention. Has done well in Australia where the tracks aren't exactly flat. You don't make more than 8500 runs and average above 50 by just being a flat track bully. That is a very simplistic view. The onus is on the management on how to utilize him the best. He was a middle-order batsman who was converted to an opener for the benefit of the team. Of-course his technique is not appropriate for tackling the new ball in swinging and seaming conditions. You have to use horses for courses. It was for them to utilize him in the middle order in those conditions and make the best use of his talent. The only century Sehwag has scored in SA was in the middle order iirc. Using Sehwag as an opener in those conditions was like using Giggs in a two man midfield against Barca in the CL final. We all know how that turned out.

I am not going to talk about Tendulkar as his time is up. The last time he went on a run was when Ricky got close to his test century mark. Only Kallis belting a few centuries in quick time can revive his form, otherwise I see no hope.

Indian bowling never was any great. Zaheer's decline has also seen the emergence of Yadav and kind of compensates for it. Throughout history we have never had two great fast bowlers going in tandem. Ashwin is going to turn out be a terrific player for us. In India, he is the only pure cricket I have seen since Kumble. Spinners need early wickets and a cushion of runs to come and perform on flat/spinning decks. We haven't has the luxury since our batting starting failing on a regular basis. Dhoni's asking for turning tracks and all that nonsense regarding pitches is not helping the bowlers. By doing that he is telling his bowlers that they are not good enough and can't perform unless the conditions are extremely helpful to them. Not good for anybody's confidence.

I agree that Dhoni doesn't look very innovative in test cricket. I was saying that even when India was winning. He costs us a win or two the last time India visited NZ. He has place in the side as a WK-batsman but he should not be captaining it. Also, we need a strong coach, clearly Duncan isn't working. I hope that Ganguly is made the Indian coach.

Most of these players are the same that almost won a test series in South Africa before the world cup. You saying that they are not good enough for test cricket or calling them "bits and parts" players is utter dross, I am sorry to say.

We need to have a proper cricket calendar. These guys cannot go on playing on these erratic schedules with no time to recover mentally or physically. Series cannot be scheduled hazardously without any proper thought. Money and profit cannot be the only goal of cricket administrators in this country. I know it's not going to happen but IPL needs to be shelved. Even without IPL, we were the richest board in the world. We don't need a billion dollar organization. We need a functional organization that takes the cricket in this country to the next level.
 
Totally disagree on Ashwin. Cook and Pietersen aside, the England batsmen are embarassingly bad against spin and yet Ashwin still looks pedestrian against them.

Who has made runs for England besides Cook and Peterson?
 
Why is it irrelevant? When those two are the only batsmen to score runs for England. He is not having a good series but it's not like other English batsmen are getting the measure of him.

We are getting beaten by four players (Two English, one South African and one of Indian origin) in this series. It's annoyingly embarrassing.
 
Well you have your opinion and obviously I won't be changing it. Ultimately as with all sport it comes down to opinions, I just find the arrogance of some of the comments embarassing.

More embarrassing than calling most Indian players as "bit-part" cricketers?
 
That 'Indian origin' comment did make me chuckle to be fair. He's not really yours...he wears a turban!
 
They'll get bowled out pretty soon, I think.

Lead of 250 and declare by first session tomorrow -- that's what I'd do, if England are still playing by then.
 
A lot of them are. And yes, a comment like:



or:




are absolutely staggeringly arrogant and ignorant.

Besides Cook and KP (South African), Indian team has more pure talent to combat these conditions. That they are playing like absolute tossers is another discussion.

What is arrogant or ignorant about it? Are we not getting beaten by those four?
 
David Lloyd can be a funny bugger. Commenting on Cook's inability to win a toss, 'Cook's a useless tosser...'.
 
Still think the pitch's excellent for batting and if we apply ourselves, we'll save this test match. We'll most probably bat like utter retards though.
 
Why is it irrelevant? When those two are the only batsmen to score runs for England. He is not having a good series but it's not like other English batsmen are getting the measure of him.

We are getting beaten by four players (Two English, one South African and one of Indian origin) in this series. It's annoyingly embarrassing.

Funny that, I swore Compton and Trott scored half-centuries, while Prior is on the verge of doing so. Swann also completely embarrassed your spinners last test match too while you have no one in the class of Anderson.

Bashing your team and back-handed compliments to the opposition - typical Indian fan!
 
Funny that, I swore Compton and Trott scored half-centuries, while Prior is on the verge of doing so. Swann also completely embarrassed your spinners last test match too while you have no one in the class of Anderson.

Bashing your team and back-handed compliments to the opposition - typical Indian fan!

:rolleyes:
 
Funny that, I swore Compton and Trott scored half-centuries, while Prior is on the verge of doing so. Swann also completely embarrassed your spinners last test match too while you have no one in the class of Anderson.

Bashing your team and back-handed compliments to the opposition - typical Indian fan!

Coming here to brag when England has an upper hand. Typical English!

I am sure none of you gave England a chance before the series started.
 
Coming here to brag when England has an upper hand. Typical English!

I am sure none of you gave England a chance before the series started.

I said i fancied us to win, but then changed my mind and said India would nick it by one test as we were so out of nick with the bat.

If i'd known Cook was going to bat like a machine, i'd have been very confident, as our bowling was always likely to out-perform yours IMO.

Edit: In saying all that, it's still 1-1 and this test is not won yet.