Unfortunately what you're saying sounds great and hopefully that'll happen but realistically it's gonna take a lot of time
India politics thread
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Unfortunately what you're saying sounds great and hopefully that'll happen but realistically it's gonna take a lot of time
Yeah, this gives the LGBTQ community some legal shelter, but on ground lots of people harass them and that will take years to stop. I'm pretty sure all of us would have anecdotes to share where an entire group of kids was bullying or harassing an effeminate boy or a girl who acts like a guy.
This is so true.. I had a friend from an orthodox bhramin family who was gay.. His own parents would blackmail him about filing complaints with the police if he didn't marry and shit like that.. They knew he was gay and did their level best to harass the poor guy.. Luckily he emigrated to the us and then promptly updated his pic into kissing another guy in a month.. Parents promptly blamed us for this and banned us from ever going to their house..
@kotha that is extremely sad. In that kind of a case, even this ruling won't be of much help unless your friend manages to get the help of a good lawyer. Most law enforcement people would first mock the guy and shatter his confidence, before telling him this is a fad and it can be cured via yoga, etc.
Edit: I think that's why it's important to have pride parades regularly. Most people in the LGBTQ community need to know that they are not alone and bigots can't take them down.
Edit: I think that's why it's important to have pride parades regularly. Most people in the LGBTQ community need to know that they are not alone and bigots can't take them down.
So the Telangana assembly is dissolved by Kcr.
Should win fresh elections but be interesting when it's held.
Should win fresh elections but be interesting when it's held.
Great stuff from India, brave of the judges to pass such a law in such a conservative region. Hope the same happens in Pakistan, persecution of gay people and homophobia is despicable, can't imagine what a gay person has to go through to hide him/herself and their identity.
This was very much expected. Not even a single party went against this judgement because the public pressure and outcry would have been too much.
It's a right call but its not a brave call, if you catch my drift.
There wasn't any major opposition from religious parties? I guess that is my misconception of India because I thought they would have greater power over there with Mohdi's government. Hopefully with Imran Khan in Pakistan we will also see a shift with religious parties not having their way in political matters, but that is a far way away.
This time? Nope. None.
The government actually filed an affidavit to the effect that they were leaving the decision on the constitutionality of Sec 377 which criminalises gay sex to the wisdom of the Court.
Homosexuality is neither unnatural nor banned in orthodox traditions if they actually knew. The dharma-shastras are very clear that homosexuality is equivalent to heterosexual couples who have sex without the purpose of progeny and hence discounted as marriage (for any Vedic marriage requires the intent to be progeny to propagate knowledge and assist with various Vedic rites and rituals; and since homosexual couples cannot bear child, their marriage technically is not considered one). But there is no restriction to practice it for those who are inclined to it. By equating it to straight couples who have sex for pleasure, it affirms that it is natural as well.
I suppose the stigma is mainly due to the infrequency of such relationships, ignorance regarding their own tradition and they assume it is unnatural or whatnot.
Yup, spineless when it comes to actual decision making.
Do you have any literature on this topic that I can read? I need a solid argument that I can throw in the face of bigots who claim it is "unnatural and against our culture and traditions, and that it's purely due to us following Western trends blindly".
Sure. I can summarize it. Apologies if me talking about this is turning politics into a religious thread, but I suppose one time post doesn't matter much.
1) In the Virata Parva of Mahabharata, Queen Sudeshna describes Draupadi's beauty in a way that implies she herself is attracted by it. That is quoted by ancient vedantins to show that same-sex attraction is a normal thing.
Then Sudeshna said to Draupadi, 'What you say (regarding your profession) can never be compatible with so much beauty. (On the contrary) you might well be the mistress of servants both, male and female. Your heels are not prominent, and your thighs touch each other. And your intelligence is great, and your navel deep, and your words solemn. And your great toes, and breasts and hips, and back and sides, and toe-nails, and palms are all well-developed. And your palms, soles, and face are ruddy. And your speech is sweet even as the voice of the swan. And your hair is beautiful, and your breasts shapely, and you are possessed of the highest grace. (~ Virata Parva, Mahabharata)
A 16th century Acharya is recorded in lectures to have quoted this and clarified to a disciple who had a doubt on whether same-sex attraction is possible. Note that Sudeshna says Draupadi is fit to have both male and female servants; meaning, both are attracted to her and would be willing to serve her.
2) In Vedanta, marriage is only for the purpose of procreation. If it is a daughter, then she must propagate the knowledge of the Shastras. If it is a son, then he should assist his father in Veda-karyas in addition to teaching and propagating the Vedas. Any purpose other than this falls under the class of lust, which is denounced in the Gita as follows:
एवं बुद्धेः परं बुद्ध्वा संस्तभ्यात्मानमात्मना।
जहि शत्रुं महाबाहो कामरूपं दुरासदम्।। (Gita 3.43)।।
Meaning: Thus, understanding desire or lust, which is higher than even the intellect, to be the biggest enemy to Jnana Yoga (method of meditation on the Slef), and establishing the mind by means of the intellect in Karma Yoga (performing Vedic works without attachment to its' fruits), destroy this foe, in the shape of desire which is difficult to overcome.
3) Going by the above verse, Homosexuality, as well as Heterosexuality for the purpose of pleasure without progeny, is not conducive to knowledge. And so, neither fall under the purview of Vedic marriage. The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad actually instructs the husband to not indulge in foreplay and simply eject semen and withdraw, to ensure he remains detached! However, this does not mean either homosexuality or heterosexuality without progeny are unnatural, obviously. Be he a homo or hetero, he is required to restrain his senses to be accepted into the Vedic fold.
4) While some things are discouraged, nothing is prohibited. Those who are not inclined towards true knowledge are suggested to continue to indulge in their desires, with the sanction of the Shastras. The logic is that if they atleast adhere to some semblance of rules while indulging in acts that do not promote knowledge, they will eventually progress and acquire this knowledge in future births.
4) The basis of ridiculous notions that homosexuality is prohibited comes from certain misinterpretations of Man Utd Smriti. This text prescribes certain expiatory acts as follows:
maithunaṃ tu samāsevya puṃsi yoṣiti vā dvijaḥ |
goyāne'psu divā caiva savāsāḥ snānamācaret || 174 ||
If a twice-born man enjoys union with a male, or with a female, in an ox-cart, or in water, or during the day,—he should take a bath along with his clothes.
(Note: The punishments in Man Utd Smriti are not literal; they are called "arthavadas" or exaggerated statements to impress upon one the severity of the act committed. Thus, by saying the punishment is to take a bath with clothes on, the implication is that it is not a major crime).
Note the qualification here: Twice-born. The job of a brahmana is to propagate the Vedas and thus, be controlled in his senses. Such a person is of course needed to abstain from sex with men and with women when the intent is not progeny. Hence, it recommends such a punishment. It does not restrict those who are not interested in the knowledge of Brahman. Note that even here, sex with man is mentioned along with woman as a norm.
Another verse misinterpreted in the text as follows:
amānuṣīṣū puruṣa udakyāyāmayoniṣu |
retaḥ siktvā jale caiva kṛcchraṃ sāntapanaṃ caret || 173 ||
A man who has had sexual intercourse with nonhuman females (bestiality), or with a menstruating woman,—and he who has discharged his semen in a place other than the female organ, or in water,—should perform the ‘Sāntapana Kṛcchra.’—(173)
Note that this again is only referring to expiatory acts for a person intent on seeking knowledge of Brahman. An ordinary person is not bound to do this. And even here, it cannot be said that homosexuality is being called unnatural merely because bestiality is mentioned. The reason for which different items here being forbidden are different - bestiality is unnatural, sex with a menstruating woman is forbidden and discharging semen via masturbation or through homosexual intercourse does not yield progeny and hence is a waste of semen. Just because many things are forbidden does not imply the reason for forbidding them are the same.
I have followed the opinions of ancient Vedantins on the subject. Modern day hindus are blissfully unaware of all this and simply read english translations on the net, that is probably the reason for the ignorance prevalent today.
Apologies for diverting this thread from political discussions.
@Kapardin , thanks!
Great news.
Though I have never understood why the T have always been linked with LGB community.
I think the needs of acceptance of the T community is different from the LGB community.
The whole public movement for the LGB rights have been overcrowded with the T community and I think it plays a huge part in how people (whose viewpoint needs to change) look at the movement.
Though I have never understood why the T have always been linked with LGB community.
I think the needs of acceptance of the T community is different from the LGB community.
The whole public movement for the LGB rights have been overcrowded with the T community and I think it plays a huge part in how people (whose viewpoint needs to change) look at the movement.
KCR dissolves Telangana assembly. In the hope that there will be an early elections in which he will win by huge margin, thus making him a big playmaker in the general elections 2019.
He also calls Ra Ga as the biggest buffoon in the country. And says his campaigning in state will help TRS get more votes.
He also calls Ra Ga as the biggest buffoon in the country. And says his campaigning in state will help TRS get more votes.
Have they also provided some framework for civil unions/same sex marriage or have they only decriminalized homosexuality?
Don't think we are there yet.
The concepts of nudity, sex and prostitution etc are quite openly permitted in Hindu mythologies and there have been ample instances of gods changing sex. Temples are littered with statues and paintings of nudism, yet we have a become a nation of prudes under the guise of culture.
What an opportunistic twat he is. How many deaths/suicides has he been responsible for.
He has a good grasp on constitutional law and is generally not right wing. However, he was blackmailed by the govt and he did compromise and for that he is a cnut.
One of my cousins is gay and he married some guy in usa. No one from my family objected and we threw a party last month when they visited India. His mother gets on well with his husband.
The three parties objecting in the case before the supreme court were all christian groups.
I might have missed this. What happened?
Well. Congress split the state in hope of winning 2014 elections.
Politics is all about being opportunistic.
Kalikho Pul case, Sahara-Birla diaries case, Judge Loya case, jay shah defamation case etc. Not appointing judges to the supreme court that the govt didn't want, assigning pil's out of turn to those judges that are pro-govt. He also heard a case which was filed against him and carved an exception to the law "nemo iudex in causa sua" which means "no-one should be a judge in his own case" to mean that generally no one can be a judge in his own case except the chief justice of India. So if tomorrow a case if filed against the cji in the supreme court then he can himself decide the case, the potential of its misuse in the future is not imaginary.
How could have missed this? There was a whole drama with 4 senior judges speaking in open against CJI
Let's not pretend that Muslim and Hindu religious leaders are fine with this ruling. Hindus at least, with time should be able to move past this kind of regressive mindset, especially since no opposition to homosexuality exists in Vedic texts. But long term this will still remain an issue for Muslim community in India given just like Christianity, the opposition to homosexuality is written in the respective religious texts (as per knowledge at least). Despte the on-going wave of acceptance and same-sex marriage legalization, a lot of chrisitians in western countries have not come to terms with the stated opposition to the same in the bible. Some of the devout christians I met in US, are not discriminatory towards LGBTQ+ community at all but still kinda skirt past the issue of reconciling the same with Christian faith.
I was asking how he was blackmailed by the govt.
His corruption would be leaked and he would be humiliated first and then impeached. Congress tried the same game but they didn't have the numbers so couldn't succeed in either blackmailing him or getting him impeached.
A journalist who usually gets stuff right has gone to Rajasthan and MP and predicts a close race in Raj and BJP win in MP, contradicting the polling. This is for the Vidhan Sabha races, not Lok Sabha. where additionally Modi is a big factor.
If that is true, his re-election is assured.
If that is true, his re-election is assured.
What is your stance on Modi?
A BJP win in MP wouldn't be a surprise.
Justice Chandrachud with a landmark dissent in the aadhar case. wag!
Rest uphold it more or less except Telecom and private linkages.
How they upheld it as a money bill is the big mystery let alone other aspects.
Sc bench headed by Cji also today removed obstacles for reservation in promotion.
And now sc allows live streaming of cases.
Rest uphold it more or less except Telecom and private linkages.
How they upheld it as a money bill is the big mystery let alone other aspects.
Sc bench headed by Cji also today removed obstacles for reservation in promotion.
And now sc allows live streaming of cases.
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Don't think they're particularly perturbed anyway. There's nothing to suggest that the opposition has sorted out a strategy for 2019, which they really should have done by now.
MP had poor infrastructure and lots of power cuts, among other issues under the previous government (think it was headed by Digvijaya Singh?). BJP has done well there so even I won't be surprised if BJP wins.
I love the fact that cases can be filed under the Aadhaar Act by common folks now, and I hope someone takes up the matter of Aadhaar being passed as a money bill in court. Down with surveillance.
Non linking of bank accounts is just stupid. I'd even support linking of mobile phones.
Yes EAP, Let's use Aadhar card as a mandatory proof of purchase when buying thayir sadham and Idli.