They've made 12 senior signings since the takeover, and only one full season has passed since then.
"A lot of their key players" are certainly not from their lower half of the table days.
How good is Eddie Howe?
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They've made 12 senior signings since the takeover, and only one full season has passed since then.
"A lot of their key players" are certainly not from their lower half of the table days.
I'm convinced they have a plan as merticulous as City's was. Do not expect a 360 degree footballing direction change like hiring a Conte from them. I suspect their next target will be a De Zerbi, Arne Slot. Or even a Xabi Alonso if a giant hasn't already snapped him up. They will just keep going up the chain towards the type of football they want long term.
Why would he be sacked? They were headed for relegation when he took over, and that spend has them competing for top 4. They lost today because much like us, are in the shit with injuries. They had 3 18yr olds on the pitch at one point
He's spent 400 million quid
I don't see the Saudis having the same patience as the United ownership do. Heads tend to roll there......
Almiron
Joelinton
Schar
Longstaff
Wilson
All were before Howe.
EDIT: He took over in November of the previous season and they were relegation level. He spent 400M over 4 windows.
And the squad he inherited was relegation level.
Dan burn too, think he’s injured though, still have local lads playing in the team.
I don’t mind Howe to be honest, don’t think he’s ever done anything for me to actively dislike him. I think he’s done a fantastic job at Newcastle too
Howe Good Is Eddie
I'd say they're loving that in Bournemouth..
Great result for football.
Great result for football.
Yes English managers seem to get the benefit of the doubt. Then you have that odd chap Sammel luckhurst who has the lovefest for Jose ignoring the fact he's well past his best.
I'll wait until the end of the season than judging on individual result. Last season Man United finished 4 points ahead of Newcastle and won a trophy. If Howe is as good as some journalists think then they should finish this season ahead of Man United and go on to win the league cup.
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Thought he was the best thing going, a shining light for ten hag to follow? But his squad is riddled with injuries so its an excuse for eddie but not erik
I like him. Never understood the hate
And having had much fewer injury problems than us.
Surely he’s fighting for his job, right? Riiiight?
They hadn't finished lower than 13th in any of their four previous seasons. The form pre-Howe was the exception, not the rule.
If all of those are still key players, what are Isak, Trippier, Tonali (pre-ban), Bruno, Botman, Gordon, Pope, Barnes and Livramento? Hell, even Dan Burns.
Important to remember Newcastle could still finish 3rd in their CL group if they beat AC Milan so they'd still have a shot at making CL through that route aswell.
Man. United won't if they lose their final two games so that's perhaps why ETH is under a little more pressure currently.
Newcastle were in a cup final just last season.
I think Howe is in plenty of credit presently with their ownership group so would need a disaster of a second half for him to be under serious pressure.
In 18 months time they'd be expecting a serious title bid so he's probably not the manager to deliver on that expectation. In any case it's probably just worth holding off until Pep fecks off and then Man. City will drop a few more points and so title challenge will feel more realistic.
Still 2nd in the xPts table, which shows they've been very unlucky this season despite playing well and creating plenty of chances.
Newcastle have got injuries all over the park currently. For tonight their first two strikers were out, they lost Almiron after half an hour and Harvey Barnes been out since October. At the back they've lost Botman and Dan Burn for quite a few weeks.
Midfield Tonali is basically the same as Sancho, totally self inflicted.
Man. United have loads of injuries but they all seem to be concentrated in the defensive area of the pitch. I think people are giving Ten Hag a hard time as you are barely scoring any goals presently in premier league and that's with Rashford, Mount, Hojlund, Bruno, Garnacho, Anthony....and err Martial all fit and available game after game so something is going a bit wrong once you're passing the halfway line currently with the combinations.
Newcastle second top scorers in the league even with the attacking injuries. I don't think they'll finish outside the top 6 as their defence is very well drilled now although was very exposed tonight and they should've conceded far more than two goals.
This is making me sound like some Newcastle fanboy ffs.
Joelinton was their club record signing. He was no slouch. Turning him into a midfielder was a great idea.
Wilson had already scored 14 goals in a season under Howe for Bournemouth.
All of these players are decent and are performing well because of Howe. Should get credit for that. They aren't bad players by any means though. All of them have it in common to be very hard workers on the pitch which is a trait I'm not too happy about from some of our regulars.
Anyone that's trying to discredit Howe for his performance so far with Newcastle isn't coming from an honest place. He's objectively done a good job and a loss here and there isn't going to change that.
The Eddie Howe v Ten Hag nonsense lasted about 2 weeks I see
Either you misremember or you just made that up.
2021-2022: Before Howe was hired, they were sitting in 19th.
2020-2021: They spent most of the previous season hovering right above the relegation zone until the last two matches of the season.
I wouldn't consider Barnes or Livramento key players, as they were just signed and haven't played that much. If that's the case, I can also include Lascelles (or even Saint Maximin and Leggett last season)
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Agree. The hysteria whenever an upcoming manager loses is weird.
Newcastle have got injuries all over the park currently. For tonight their first two strikers were out, they lost Almiron after half an hour and Harvey Barnes been out since October. At the back they've lost Botman and Dan Burn for quite a few weeks.
Midfield Tonali is basically the same as Sancho, totally self inflicted.
Man. United have loads of injuries but they all seem to be concentrated in the defensive area of the pitch. I think people are giving Ten Hag a hard time as you are barely scoring any goals presently in premier league and that's with Rashford, Mount, Hojlund, Bruno, Garnacho, Anthony....and err Martial all fit and available game after game so something is going a bit wrong once you're passing the halfway line currently with the combinations.
Newcastle second top scorers in the league even with the attacking injuries. I don't think they'll finish outside the top 6 as their defence is very well drilled now although was very exposed tonight and they should've conceded far more than two goals.
This is making me sound like some Newcastle fanboy ffs.
It's not as simple as reducing it to "injuries in one area" and expecting the rest of the team to perform. Obviously Newcastle are affected by injuries, but United's problems are just as bad, if not worse.
As Liverpool demonstrated the year after winning the title, an injury crisis affecting almost solely the defense severely limits the ability of the rest of the side to perform. They went on a 14 game run in which they failed to score in eight games, scoring just 11 goals in total, losing eight games, winning just three. Before that, they'd won nine of 14, lost just once, scored in every game, and scored 36 in total.
Yes I remember the Liverpool run. Didn't they still finish 3rd in the end so a bit of pressure there on ETH....
Last season's Liverpool is far more comparable to this season's Man. United I think. 4/5 key players all dropping off at the same time and Diaz and Jota were out for 3/4 months injured at the same time.
I haven't made it up. They weren't a comfortable mid-table side, and certainly spent portions of each season briefly flirting with relegation, but the form pre-Howe was literal relegation form. They were consistently in the bottom three. This was not the case in any of the four seasons prior.
In their first season back in the league, they spent two weeks in the bottom three. The first week, and the 18th. They went nine games without a win to fall there after the 18th week, but instantly climbed back out and ended up 10th.
In their second season back, they didn't win any of their opening 10 games, and spent seven weeks of that run in the bottom three. They climbed out, fell from 15th to 18th in the 22nd week of the season, after a run of five games without a win, then instantly climbed out again and finished 13th. The season after (2019/20 for reference), they had a stuttering start that saw them in the bottom three a few times, but climbed out 10 games in, and didn't drop lower than 14th after the 12th game, finishing 13th, and reaching as high as 9th. They weren't in the bottom three at all the season after, although a mid-season dip in form saw them drop to 17th, but they recovered and finished 12th.
The season Howe took over, they won just one of their opening 20 games, losing 10 of them. This actually includes nine games for which Howe was manager. They had zero wins before he arrived, and were sat 19th. As I said that form was the exception, not the rule.
The point about the players signed is not that they are all key players, but given the number signed, how are all of those pre-existing players you mentioned still considered key players?
Liverpool were top of the table (and reigning champions) when their form dipped so had a decent base of points, and had the fortune of chasing down Brendan Rodgers' Leicester in the top four, and a Chelsea side that became preoccupied with the CL final.
Ten Hag has had one season at United with the bulk of the squad what he inherited.
Liverpool had just won the league. We won the Carabao Cup. Hardly the same is it.
This is exactly what I said, so I'm not sure
They consistently spent time at or around the relegation zone the in the four years prior to Howe. Their relegation for was not an exception to the rule
All the ones I listed. At least 5 players, not even including part-time players still used or those who were just transferred this season.
4 seasons before he took over
10th Rafa
13th Rafa
13th Bruce
12th Bruce
He took them from 19th or whatever to 11th, then 4th.
No, at worst they briefly flirted with it with a couple of bad runs. They weren't perennial relegation fodder, and one season were in contention for a top half finish until late into the season.
At most they spent a week or two in the bottom three in the second half of a season, as a total across the four seasons. They finished 12th in 2021, 17 points clear of relegation, and although they dropped to 17th with four games left, they were nine points clear of the drop, and the two teams that could catch them picked up just three points between them.
They simply were not as bad prior to 2021/22 as you're making out.
Winning just one in 20 was absolutely an exception to their performances in prior seasons.
Still being used doesn't make them all key players. That is my point.
Same happened with Klopp's Liverpool in 2021 and they ended up losing at home to Burnley,Brighton,Everton,Fulham without scoring themselves.Newcastle have got injuries all over the park currently. For tonight their first two strikers were out, they lost Almiron after half an hour and Harvey Barnes been out since October. At the back they've lost Botman and Dan Burn for quite a few weeks.
Midfield Tonali is basically the same as Sancho, totally self inflicted.
Man. United have loads of injuries but they all seem to be concentrated in the defensive area of the pitch. I think people are giving Ten Hag a hard time as you are barely scoring any goals presently in premier league and that's with Rashford, Mount, Hojlund, Bruno, Garnacho, Anthony....and err Martial all fit and available game after game so something is going a bit wrong once you're passing the halfway line currently with the combinations.
Newcastle second top scorers in the league even with the attacking injuries. I don't think they'll finish outside the top 6 as their defence is very well drilled now although was very exposed tonight and they should've conceded far more than two goals.
This is making me sound like some Newcastle fanboy ffs.
Look at the results rather than the final position. Newcastle cannot be described as some midtable side. Last 3 seasons and change before Howe (starting with most recent):
It’s called the League Cup FYI
I'm unsure if you're purposely being disingenuous or just arguing for the sake of it. My post above shows their actual position from week to week. Sitting at 15th, 16th, or 17th is a perennial relegation-threatened side. Newcastle have had one season of being "safe" from relegation in the last 4 years before Howe.
Every player I mentioned played or started in a majority of their matches since Howe took over. I didn't just name a bunch of random players.
I don't even understand what the argument is at this point. They were clearly a bad team before him.
Look at the results rather than the final position. Newcastle cannot be described as some midtable side. Last 3 seasons and change before Howe (starting with most recent):
They were a mid table side, because they finished mid table.
A large part of the immediate up turn under Howe came from the boost stemming from the change in ownership. He then went and spent a bag of money and played some of the ugliest football going. Not denying he's done a good job, he has.
But, I'll always enjoy seeing Newcastle get beat.
Midtable side when they spent nearly all of their time in the bottom half fighting relegation. Ok.
If the bolded is true there is really nothing to argue about.
If there's anyone being disingenuous, it's you. Pointing at league positions without context means nothing. I could do that and claim United have been title challengers multiple times over the last decade because they've managed to finish second and third a few times. Again, they didn't finish lower than 13th, and it's a massive stretch to say sitting in 15th is a clear sign of being threatened by relegation.
Newcastle were promoted back to the Premier League for the 17/18 season. Ignoring the first few matches, because league position is meaningless there, Newcastle slipped from 9th after 10 games to 18th after 18 games after a run of bad form. They immediately left the bottom three, although they were within touching distance for a stretch, but ultimately ended up 10th, 11 points clear of the drop. The team in 18th finished on 33 points. With that in mind, Newcastle were effectively safe with seven games left to play. Newcastle actually spent the final seven games in 10th, despite losing four of their last five games. That is not the finishing position of a perennial relegation-threatened side, and they didn't spend more than a single week sat 16th for the entire second half of the season. There were at least four teams worse than them for long periods of the season.
In 18/19, they had a bad start, found their way back with a run of four wins and draw over seven games, then had a slide of five without a win dropping them into the bottom three for a single week. There were still 16 games left, and once again they immediately climbed out of the bottom three. In fact, after finding themselves in 14th just two games later, they didn't drop lower than 16th for the rest of the season, and that was just for a single week too. They finished 13th, once again 11 points clear of the drop, and as the team in 18th finished on 34 points, were effectively safe with seven games left. Again, there were at least four teams worse than them for the bulk of the season.
After 11 games of 19/20, they didn't drop lower than 14th, reached as high as 9th, and finished 13th despite winning none of their last six games. This absolutely wasn't a relegation threatened season.
In 20/21 they didn't spend a single week in the bottom three and finished 17 points clear of relegation in 12th. They had as many points after 28 games as the team in 18th did at the end of the season, and despite being 17th with four games left, even then they were nine points clear of the drop.
In 21/22, they spent 18 weeks in the bottom three, and 23 weeks in the bottom four. That's three more weeks in the relegation zone than the previous four seasons combined, and only five fewer in the bottom four than the previous four seasons combined. That season was absolutely an anomaly.
Allowing for your stretched bottom six criteria for being "perennially threatened by relegation" - Newcastle spent 14 of 38 weeks in the bottom six in 17/18, 19 of 38 weeks in the bottom six in 18/19, 9 of 38 weeks in the bottom six in 19/20, and 23 of 38 weeks in the bottom six in 20/21, which ironically, is the season they finished the most points ahead of the drop. This not only proves that position doesn't tell the whole story, but that this apparently perennially relegation threatened side had spent near 60% of their time outside of the bottom six over those four seasons.
You're making out as if they were akin to that Wigan side that repeatedly left it until the final game or so to escape the relegation zone. They simply were never that bad, and the horrendous start to 21/22 was quite clearly not the norm.
As for the point about players, you've clearly misunderstood the point you even made in the first place. You said, and I quote: "Even though they have spent, a lot of their key players were fighting for relegation under previous managers."
I asked which of the pre-Saudi players were still key players, and you listed five players. I then asked where the dozen or so senior signings they've made since the money came in fell in relation to those five if they were still key players (now keep in mind a football team can only field eleven at a time). You then shifted the goalposts to say that these five were, and again I quote, "players still used". Still using a player doesn't make them a key player. It just means you have spaces in a line-up that need filling. Micah Richards was a regular starter for City when they won their first Premier League. He was by no means a key player by that point. Scott McTominay and Harry Maguire are still used at Manchester United. They are certainly not key players.
I've not claimed that Newcastle were a great side in the four seasons before the money and Howe, but they were also nowhere near as bad as you make them out to have been.
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This thread title reminds me of the novel ‘Gravity’s Rainbow’, with the ‘you never did the Kenosha kid’, sentence mash ups…
Howe - good, is Eddie? How?
Good! How is Eddie Howe?
Eddie Howe is good! How?
Eddie is good. Howe? How (Native American for yes).
Howe - good, is Eddie? How?
Good! How is Eddie Howe?
Eddie Howe is good! How?
Eddie is good. Howe? How (Native American for yes).