How do we sell Harry Maguire?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Eckers99 said:
Southgate has switched between a back 3 and back 4 for much of those games. He's not totally wedded to one system.

Where he is conservative is midfield. Maguire usually has Rice and Phillips ahead of him, so there's a solidity that he doesn't get at United. That's a big part of the reason he generally looks very good for England.

None of this is intended to be Maguire apologism btw. As I said before, he's been very poor this season. But anyone dumping our problems solely at his door is either a bit simple or just totally incapable of looking at the wider picture.
Click to expand...
Plus very weird that 5 at the back is being used as another stick to beat him,

The Chelsea CBs must also be average then who need a lot of protection. Back 5, protected by the great Kante and even by Mount who does so much defensively.
 
Eckers99 said:
Southgate has switched between a back 3 and back 4 for much of those games. He's not totally wedded to one system.

Where he is conservative is midfield. Maguire usually has Rice and Phillips ahead of him, so there's a solidity that he doesn't get at United. That's a big part of the reason he generally looks very good for England.

None of this is intended to be Maguire apologism btw. As I said before, he's been very poor this season. But anyone dumping our problems solely at his door is either a bit simple or just totally incapable of looking at the wider picture.
Click to expand...
While I don't disagree with most of this, Maguire is definitely one of the biggest problems, if not the biggest (maybe the midfield just about 'beats' him here). Why? He's the captain and the whole play is supposed to be built up from the back. He can neither defend well at the required level, nor is good enough at ball-playing for that to be overlooked (the joker above saying De Gea is the main problem is having a laugh).

Both Magure's football performances and captain performances have been bad. The man is just not good enough.

Saying that we need better players just so Harry '4 relegations' Maguire can be less awful is indicative of why we are where we are. In a title challenging team, he'd be 3rd or preferably 4th choice.
 
Rightnr said:
While I don't disagree with most of this, Maguire is definitely one of the biggest problems, if not the biggest (maybe the midfield just about 'beats' him here). Why? He's the captain and the whole play is supposed to be built up from the back. He can neither defend well at the required level, nor is good enough at ball-playing for that to be overlooked (the joker above saying De Gea is the main problem is having a laugh).

Both Magure's football performances and captain performances have been bad. The man is just not good enough.

Saying that we need better players just so Harry '4 relegations' Maguire can be less awful is indicative of why we are where we are. In a title challenging team, he'd be 3rd or preferably 4th choice.
Click to expand...
Having a laugh? Really?

He's having a truly awful season but just tell me, given how bad he has been, is Maguire statistically the worst in the league in any area of his game? Just out of interest.

Whereas De Gea, statistically the worst goalkeeper in the league on crosses, the worst goalkeeper in the league in sweeping actions (despite us wanting to play a high line), his distribution is in the bottom third of PL goalkeepers. It's not measurable but very few goalkeepers speak less than him on the pitch so his communication is horrendous given he has the best view of the pitch of any player on it. Combats that by being the best goalkeeper in the league in PSxG which is an important stat but doesn't take into account how the goalkeeper could have prevented the shot taking place in the first place or if the goalkeeper has been the one to give away possession.

Maguire and De Gea both become available tomorrow on a free, you going to try and tell me De Gea ends up at a better club than Maguire? No chance.
 
Rightnr said:
While I don't disagree with most of this, Maguire is definitely one of the biggest problems, if not the biggest (maybe the midfield just about 'beats' him here). Why? He's the captain and the whole play is supposed to be built up from the back. He can neither defend well at the required level, nor is good enough at ball-playing for that to be overlooked (the joker above saying De Gea is the main problem is having a laugh).

Both Magure's football performances and captain performances have been bad. The man is just not good enough.

Saying that we need better players just so Harry '4 relegations' Maguire can be less awful is indicative of why we are where we are. In a title challenging team, he'd be 3rd or preferably 4th choice.
Click to expand...
He's been a poor part of a poor team. The season before he was an important part of a good team. His form is a problem but the fact that, like many of his United teammates, he can consistently play well on international duty - and has consistently played well previously for United - suggests that he's just one of many who've been dragged down by this utter clusterfeck of a season.

The fact that a national side that meets up every few months is better organised, more structured and more disciplined than the club side he's part of week-in, week-out is my main takeaway from the current campaign. We're a mess.

And hardly anyone comes out of this season looking well. Let's be honest, much of that is down to how badly run we are. Hopefully getting the right manager will result in a well-drilled side and better collective performances from every single one of them.
 
Eckers99 said:
He's been a poor part of a poor team. The season before he was an important part of a good team. His form is a problem but the fact that, like many of his United teammates, he can consistently play well on international duty - and has consistently played well previously for United - suggests that he's just one of many who've been dragged down by this utter clusterfeck of a season.

The fact that a national side that meets up every few months is better organised, more structured and more disciplined than the club side he's part of week-in, week-out is my main takeaway from the current campaign. We're a mess.

And hardly anyone comes out of this season looking well. Let's be honest, much of that is down to how badly run we are. Hopefully getting the right manager will result in a well-drilled side and better collective performances from every single one of them.
Click to expand...
England plays 70% of the games against cannon fodder teams for crying out loud.
 
JB7 said:
Maguire and De Gea both become available tomorrow on a free, you going to try and tell me De Gea ends up at a better club than Maguire? No chance.
Click to expand...

This will get pelters from most of the forum but I agree. They're both problems but De Gea is a bigger one than Maguire - he's having a shot-stopping purple patch this season that's (barely) disguised just how awful his overall game is, and I'm terrified we'll reward him for it with another massive contract.

Hoping against hope that Ten Hag/Pochettino/whoever decides that the defensive rebuild needs to start with the keeper.
 
JB7 said:
He isn't the worst part at all. He's possibly the most out of form but he definitely isn't the worst part of the team by any stretch, not even close. He's just the easiest target frankly.
Click to expand...

He's the mainstay. This season he has comfortably been the worst player on the pitch more often than not.
 
People should not use the "he has no protection" excuse at United for Maguire. His United form has been fecking awful this season. It has nothing to do with protection.

He still has confidence and belief in himself in and England shirt. Which people conflate with protection.


Varane is literally the perfect partner for him. But his form has made the pair look a disaster
 
JB7 said:
He's not the only mainstay.
Click to expand...

No one else in the defence has been a mainstay. The rest have all been rotated. Dalot/AWB, Varane/Lindelof, Shaw/Telles.

I'm sure you'll probably try and tell me De Gea is a bigger problem than Maguire...
 
hobbers said:
He's the mainstay. This season he has comfortably been the worst player on the pitch more often than not.
Click to expand...
Simply not true, even on the player ratings here. Leicester, Watford, Liverpool and then an over reaction to every goal conceded since.
 
Leftback99 said:
Simply not true, even on the player ratings here. Leicester, Watford, Liverpool and then an over reaction to every goal conceded since.
Click to expand...

Not sure why you'd think the player ratings on here are relevant, but he's got the lowest average rating of all the defenders with 4.8. Even lower than AWB, and he's barely a footballer.
 
Insane mental gymnastics to find excuses for his poor performances. Some blaming people in front of him, some blaming people behind him
 
GifLord said:
England plays 70% of the games against cannon fodder teams for crying out loud.
Click to expand...
Cannon fodder or not (and the likes of Croatia and Germany are most definitely not) he's part of a functioning system. Everyone knows what they're doing.

United, meanwhile, are absolutely bobbins against everyone - including cannon fodder. To a man.

Watford have taken 4 points off us this season FFS.

Is that all on Maguire?
 
hobbers said:
Not sure why you'd think the player ratings on here are relevant, but he's got the lowest average rating of all the defenders with 4.8. Even lower than AWB, and he's barely a footballer.
Click to expand...
Well he's despised on here and still hasn't been hasn't been judged 'comfortably the worst player on the pitch more often than not' by a simple check.
 
Leftback99 said:
Well he's despised on here and still hasn't been hasn't been judged 'comfortably the worst player on the pitch more often than not' by a simple check.
Click to expand...

He has the second lowest average rating of the whole squad, predictably after Rashford....
 
hobbers said:
He has the second lowest average rating of the whole squad, predictably after Rashford....
Click to expand...
Average isn't the same as what you said. His average is bound to be low due to the 3 or 4 shockers where he's got 1s and 2s.
 
Eckers99 said:
and the likes of Croatia and Germany are most definitely not)
Click to expand...

I mean... not to speak for the other poster but I'm assuming that's why they said 70% and not 100%.

For reference, 6 of England's opponents in Maguire's last 20 games are in the top 25 of the FIFA rankings, as an extremely generous proxy for top-division-level clubs, which is, funnily enough, exactly 30%.

Most of the rest are just no comparison at all with club football: an entirely different category of "cannon fodder" to the kind you'd see at the worst PL / La Liga / Bundesliga / Serie A clubs
 
GifLord said:
England plays 70% of the games against cannon fodder teams for crying out loud.
Click to expand...
Damn near every one of our regular internationals does a job for their national sides. That never comes into the equation when we're discussing their club form though as they're 2 separate things entirely so it's always odd seeing that continuously propped up as a shield for him.

We have players who have actually won major trophies for their countries being slated to hell and back on this forum but for some reason playing decently for England nullifies concerns about poor performances for United, I don't get the logic
 
Eckers99 said:
Cannon fodder or not (and the likes of Croatia and Germany are most definitely not) he's part of a functioning system. Everyone knows what they're doing.

United, meanwhile, are absolutely bobbins against everyone - including cannon fodder. To a man.

Watford have taken 4 points off us this season FFS.

Is that all on Maguire?
Click to expand...

Even when he doesn’t play it’s his fault. The hive mind has decided. But long contract big fee, he’ll be here for years, shame some can’t just try supporting him. Next manager will use him I have no doubt.
 
hobbers said:
We've conceded 38 goals in the last 24 games Harry has started in the league and CL. 1.6 per game. He's been the cornerstone of the worst defense we've ever seen in the Premier League era and beyond. Even under Moyes we were only conceding 1.1 per game.

In the 8 games he hasn't started during that same period we conceded 8 goals.
Click to expand...

In the games he didn't start in January De Gea had to make more saves than any other keeper in the league. As for Maguire, he's had a handful of awful games. No doubt. The 4-2 loss to Leicester, 5-0 loss to Liverpool, and the 4-1 loss to Watford are the games that pop in my head right away. He was awful in those games and that's 13 goals right there. Take those games away and we are around a goal per game, which isn't bad. Especially considering how poor we have been. But outside of that, for the most part people are literally looking for reasons to blame him. He's become a massive scapegoat. It's gotten so bad people actually want him to do poorly and that really is pathetic...
 
King Azaz the Unabridged said:
I mean... not to speak for the other poster but I'm assuming that's why they said 70% and not 100%.

For reference, 6 of England's opponents in Maguire's last 20 games are in the top 25 of the FIFA rankings, as an extremely generous proxy for top-division-level clubs, which is, funnily enough, exactly 30%.

Most of the rest are just no comparison at all with club football: an entirely different category of "cannon fodder" to the kind you'd see at the worst PL / La Liga / Bundesliga / Serie A clubs
Click to expand...
Irrespective of who England play, they'll be more organised, composed and coherent than anything we've seen from United this season. And if they play, the likes of Maguire and Shaw will know what's expected of them and, more than likely, be much better than they've been all season in a United shirt.

That won't be because, contrary to accepted wisdom, they can switch confidence on and off between club and national sides - as was suggested by @Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber. It'll be because the England set up isn't a raging dumpster fire.

It's bizarre how a forum can be in near-total agreement that the team is an un-coached, tactically deficient mish mash of several failed regimes and that massive failings in key areas (midfield) have left parts of the team totally exposed but, when these things are held up as bigger reasons for our malaise than Harry Maguire, people refuse to concede an inch.

I've said it already but I'll say it again. Yes, he's been shite. So has the whole team. They haven't all become useless overnight for no good reason. The failings go way beyond certain individuals, no matter how deeply entrenched the negativity is towards some of them.
 
With a decent midfield Maguire will be a much better player. Hes playing games with McFred in the middle, it just doesn't work.
 
Eckers99 said:
Irrespective of who England play, they'll be more organised, composed and coherent than anything we've seen from United this season. And if they play, the likes of Maguire and Shaw will know what's expected of them and, more than likely, be much better than they've been all season in a United shirt.

That won't be because, contrary to accepted wisdom, they can switch confidence on and off between club and national sides - as was suggested by @Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber. It'll be because the England set up isn't a raging dumpster fire.
Click to expand...

Sure, it's these things too, but the biggest difference is just the gaping chasm in quality between England and the vast majority of teams they play against. Nothing to do with confidence

I don't even disagree with your overall point - Maguire and Shaw are both decent players and have been good for us in the not-too-distant past (great, in Shaw's case). But I base that on their recent performances for us, playing against the same caliber of opposition they've been poor against this season. Not turning up and scoring goals against Albania and San Marino.
 
Rightnr said:
While I don't disagree with most of this, Maguire is definitely one of the biggest problems, if not the biggest (maybe the midfield just about 'beats' him here). Why? He's the captain and the whole play is supposed to be built up from the back. He can neither defend well at the required level, nor is good enough at ball-playing for that to be overlooked (the joker above saying De Gea is the main problem is having a laugh).

Both Magure's football performances and captain performances have been bad. The man is just not good enough.

Saying that we need better players just so Harry '4 relegations' Maguire can be less awful is indicative of why we are where we are. In a title challenging team, he'd be 3rd or preferably 4th choice.
Click to expand...

De Gea is a huge problem. Sure, he's a great shot stopper. Probably still one of the best shot stoppers in the world. But that doesn't change the fact that the rest of his game is average to poor. A lot of the saves he makes, a keeper who commands his back 4 wouldn't have to. He is too quiet in goal. How many times do we see players unmarked on the back post? The keeper has the best vision on the entire field and should be doing a lot more than just yelling "keeper" every once in a while...
 
Anderson_7_ said:
Leicester really robbed us in broad daylight with Maguire.
Click to expand...

It shows how much we are lacking football people behind the scenes. The fact nobody called it out that he is clearly a great defender for a defensive team but not an attacking team. We could of got any defender in the world for that money, insane.
 
VP89 said:
He wasnt even for sale. We just threw untold money at them till theyd cave.
Click to expand...

ManchesterManchester said:
It shows how much we are lacking football people behind the scenes. The fact nobody called it out that he is clearly a great defender for a defensive team but not an attacking team. We could of got any defender in the world for that money, insane.
Click to expand...

Just terrible optics and truly amateur hour. Hopefully lesson learned.
 
SadlerMUFC said:
De Gea is a huge problem. Sure, he's a great shot stopper. Probably still one of the best shot stoppers in the world. But that doesn't change the fact that the rest of his game is average to poor. A lot of the saves he makes, a keeper who commands his back 4 wouldn't have to. He is too quiet in goal. How many times do we see players unmarked on the back post? The keeper has the best vision on the entire field and should be doing a lot more than just yelling "keeper" every once in a while...
Click to expand...

This is equally just drivel.

De Gea is poor coming for crosses, sure. But we dont generally concede from high crosses and headers. We concede from cutbacks, through balls and pinball at the back because of our panicky inept back 6, their awful positioning and reactions and their dreadful half-clearances straight to opponents' feet. Maguire being the worst offender of most of it.
 
hobbers said:
This is equally just drivel.

De Gea is poor coming for crosses, sure. But we dont generally concede from high crosses and headers. We concede from cutbacks, through balls and pinball at the back because of our panicky inept back 6, their awful positioning and reactions and their dreadful half-clearances straight to opponents' feet. Maguire being the worst offender of most of it.
Click to expand...
So you want to ignore him being the worst goalkeeper in the league on crosses? Fine. Lets assume all goals conceded are from those other 3 aspects you have mentioned.

Cut backs - balls into 6 yard box a lot of the time are goalkeepers balls, Romero was excellent at it for example, De Gea stands on his line regardless of whether the ball is put across 10 yards in front of him or 2 yards in front of him. Every ball into the box, regardless of whether it is cross or cut back, is essentially a 50-50 ball due to his ineptitude.
Through balls - De Gea is the worst sweeping goalkeeper in the league and we have a manager that wants to play with a high line.
Pinball - De Gea likes to use his feet which results in the ball bouncing directly back into the penalty area rather than holding a ball or pushing it wide.

But yeah, it's Maguires fault. Like it was Lindelofs faul last season. Like it was Smallings fault before him. And Blinds fault before that. And Evans fault before him. And Rio's fault before them. And it'll be Varanes fault next season. And somebody elses fault the following year.
 
hobbers said:
This is equally just drivel.

De Gea is poor coming for crosses, sure. But we dont generally concede from high crosses and headers. We concede from cutbacks, through balls and pinball at the back because of our panicky inept back 6, their awful positioning and reactions and their dreadful half-clearances straight to opponents' feet. Maguire being the worst offender of most of it.
Click to expand...

He is also horrible with is positioning and he is way too quiet. A lot of defensive positioning errors can be corrected with a vocal keeper. By the way, Maguire actually has more defensive actions than any other defender on our team, but that doesn't fit the narrative of blaming him for everything, so don't worry about those silly facts...

Harry Maguire Statistics | Premier League
Raphaël Varane Statistics | Premier League
Victor Lindelöf Statistics | Premier League
 
JB7 said:
So you want to ignore him being the worst goalkeeper in the league on crosses? Fine. Lets assume all goals conceded are from those other 3 aspects you have mentioned.

Cut backs - balls into 6 yard box a lot of the time are goalkeepers balls, Romero was excellent at it for example, De Gea stands on his line regardless of whether the ball is put across 10 yards in front of him or 2 yards in front of him. Every ball into the box, regardless of whether it is cross or cut back, is essentially a 50-50 ball due to his ineptitude.
Through balls - De Gea is the worst sweeping goalkeeper in the league and we have a manager that wants to play with a high line.
Pinball - De Gea likes to use his feet which results in the ball bouncing directly back into the penalty area rather than holding a ball or pushing it wide.

But yeah, it's Maguires fault. Like it was Lindelofs faul last season. Like it was Smallings fault before him. And Blinds fault before that. And Evans fault before him. And Rio's fault before them. And it'll be Varanes fault next season. And somebody elses fault the following year.
Click to expand...

Look Harry... is it De Gea's fault when you slice a simple clearance straight into an attacker's feet? No.

Is it De Gea's fault when you step out of defence and fly into a challenge and leave a canyon's space behind you for attackers to run into? No.

Is it De Gea's fault when you tackle your own player in our penalty area and the ball breaks to a forward? No.

Is it De Gea's fault when someone runs at you with the ball and you do another one of those wild lunges, miss the ball and player by a country mile, and take yourself out of the game? You guessed it. No.
 
SadlerMUFC said:
He is also horrible with is positioning and he is way too quiet. A lot of positioning errors can be corrected with a vocal keeper. By the way, Maguire actually has more defensive actions than any other defender on our team, but that doesn't fit the narrative of blaming him for everything, so don't worry about those silly facts...

Harry Maguire Statistics | Premier League
Raphaël Varane Statistics | Premier League
Victor Lindelöf Statistics | Premier League
Click to expand...
Hes probably blocking and clearing the ball he gave away
 
King Azaz the Unabridged said:
Sure, it's these things too, but the biggest difference is just the gaping chasm in quality between England and the vast majority of teams they play against. Nothing to do with confidence

I don't even disagree with your overall point - Maguire and Shaw are both decent players and have been good for us in the not-too-distant past (great, in Shaw's case). But I base that on their recent performances for us, playing against the same caliber of opposition they've been poor against this season. Not turning up and scoring goals against Albania and San Marino.
Click to expand...
I honestly couldn't care less about how they perform for England. Not interested. Just find it fairly depressing that they probably see international duty as a welcome break from the club. I'm old enough to remember when the opposite was true.

Think I'm largely just bored with the toxicity and less inclined to dump it all on them as players than I am the club for helping to create the worst possible environment for athletes to perform at a high level.

I'm also fairly sure that Maguire and Shaw could be part of a functional back four if we hire a decent manager, finally fix the midfield and are well coached.

That's the hope anyway.
 
hobbers said:
Look Harry... is it De Gea's fault when you slice a simple clearance straight into an attacker's feet? No.

Is it De Gea's fault when you step out of defence and fly into a challenge and leave a canyon's space behind you for attackers to run into? No.

Is it De Gea's fault when you tackle your own player in our penalty area and the ball breaks to a forward? No.

Is it De Gea's fault when someone runs at you with the ball and you do another one of those wild lunges, miss the ball and player by a country mile, and take yourself out of the game? You guessed it. No.
Click to expand...
Where did I post any defence of Maguire whatsoever in that post (or any of my posts this evening for that matter)? I just thought it was important to point out how ridiculous your post absolving the goalkeeper of blame for those 3 types of goals were.
 
Maguire is to blame for his own bad form this season. Not the coaching. Not the set up. Not the players plating behind, alongside nor playing infront of him.

It's his responsibility to pick himself up and rectify it.

Personally, I refuse to join the band wagon chanting "he was a useless buy" + "he should be sold" like we have NEVER seen him play consistently well at United. All I want is for us to get a 4th actually quick , yet competitive center half, able to gel with our 3 likely to stay senior center halves to ensure 2 things:

1. We break up pairing him with Lindeloff for good.
2. We stop having an undroppable cebter back. So that the starting pair get selected strictly on merit of form. Never because of an armband, who stays fitter nor who gels best.



Im sure in that environment we'll see Maguire back to his best.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.