Homophobia in football

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bosnian_red said:
I could see either scenario that he defaulted to his personal religious belief as the easy 1 sentence explanation that does also include the factors I listed in my previous reply that go far beyond his own personal beliefs but the tangible effects that a Muslim player from a Muslim country has on that players' family and his own well being/opportunities when he visits his country. If he is just passively disinterested, but knows that wearing the armband would be an end to his international career (no idea I'm just speculating), or would lead to issues for him back home or cause his family issues... Why would he wear it? If he's passively disinterested, he'll prioritize the stuff he actually cares about (himself and his family).

In summary, not everyone has to support somebody else's cause and it doesn't make someone a cnut for not joining in on a protest, and this is literally a form of a protest.

As a side note, all the people going hard on the criticism, how many pro LGBTQ protests have you been to this year? How many pro Palestinian rights protests? How many rainbow stickers or laces thongs do you have to show support? Does saying 0 to any of these make you against it?
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If my workplace asked me to wear a rainbow armband, I’d have no problem. They haven’t, so errr, I haven’t worn one strangely enough.

A protest is defined as actively expressing disapproval of something. So using your definition, if a player is protesting by wearing the armband, they are protesting against homophobia in football. Only someone homophobic would do that.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You're making misleading comparisons. This bloke is only being asked to wear an armband that is a specific colour. Nothing more than that. It's not even the tiniest inconvenience to help support a campaign to give a persecuted minority a bit more recognition. If he chooses to take a stand over this then he's very clearly stating his position as someone who won't make even an insignificant effort to make this minority feel included. So fully deserves whatever shit he gets.
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It might only be an armband to you, but to him its obviously more than that. A symbol if you like - he is putting his family name and his face against something which he isn't supposed to agree with.
It could be that he doesn't want to be persecuted by his family for going against their faith.

Difficult for us to understand having never been in the situation but lets say.... something we believe is wrong that you can go to prison for. You have grown up believing is wrong.... Lets say owning a gun.
You then move to a US state where they are campaigning for owning guns to remain legal for everyone. You would be awfully unlikely to get behind the movement having spent your entire life believing it to be a bad thing for everyone to own a gun.

If we are saying This Ipswich lad is showing prejudice towards the homosexual community as they are free to be who they want to be, are we not being prejudice towards him or his religion for hating on him for following his faith, which again, is something he is free to do. It just his goes against the majority, thats all.
 
It’s bonkers that this is STILL a discussion.

I don’t care about your sexuality, religion, skin colour, gender, age …. what I care about is can you play football and perform for my team.
 
If Morsy did it because of personal values, the “values” in question here is, given the choice, homosexuality would be banned, and in a Muslim country, punishable by death. That is not a debate, that is the actual rule and belief. That is almost universally the case in all Islamic sects and schools of jurisprudence, save for a few small “modern” ones.


That is not a very different personal value than a far right person wanting to ban Muslims from practicing their religion in Europe for example, and potentially making it punishable by death. That’s leaving out that a Muslim practicing their religion is actually a choice.

I will give him the benefit of the doubt, he’s maybe stuck between a rock and a hard place. Wearing it means death threats online at least, and potentially actual harm or at least ostracization and harassment in Egypt.

Ispwich should’ve swerved the issue and benched him for this game. Same for Crystal Palace.
 
HTG said:
Nobody is imposing anything on him. He’s being criticised. That’s not the same. He has every right to his choice. As much as I have every right to criticise him for it. It’s that simple.
It is my personal choice to deem him a bigoted homophob, who can go to the deepest layer of hell he believes in. End of story.
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No one is against your right to criticize him. Period. We are against rather you thinking that right is a bigger deal than it is.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Yeah right.
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I genuinely don’t. I don’t understand which right I seem to think is supposed to be a bigger deal than it is and the positioning of the word rather is throwing me off.
Mind you, this ain’t my first language. So I tend to ask for clarification when I’m not sure about something, instead of just assuming. This is a sensible topic and I want to do it justice.
 
Choosing to actively not wear it means you disagree with it. If you weren't fussed you'd just get on with it like all the other initiatives, even if you think it doesn't really do much and is performative. If you're going as far as to object to wearing it then you're doing so because you fundamentally disagree with it imo.
 
Dont get why he's getting criticism, no one should be forced to wear a band supporting anything they dont want to. Not supporting is not the same as hating. For example I got nothing against the LGBT community but I wouldnt feel comfortable putting a rainbow flag on my house.
 
Dan_F said:
If my workplace asked me to wear a rainbow armband, I’d have no problem. They haven’t, so errr, I haven’t worn one strangely enough.

A protest is defined as actively expressing disapproval of something. So using your definition, if a player is protesting by wearing the armband, they are protesting against homophobia in football. Only someone homophobic would do that.
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Or somebody who cares more about himself and his family more than a cause he might be neutral or not care about? Like I said. Wearing it is an active protest and for him would likely have a serious impact. It's a lose lose. Except if he doesn't wear it, he gets some stick from people who don't know him and probably doesn't affect his life beyond 1 week but if he does wear it, his national career might be over, his family and relatives and himself might all have lasting issues beyond just 1 week.

People have to understand that protesting for a cause, even if it's a good cause, often does come with an inconvenience and choosing not to partake doesn't mean that person is a piece of shit.
 
Solius said:
Choosing to actively not wear it means you disagree with it. If you weren't fussed you'd just get on with it like all the other initiatives, even if you think it doesn't really do much and is performative. If you're going as far as to object to wearing it then you're doing so because you fundamentally disagree with it imo.
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You aren't thinking about it from his point of view or from someone who if they wear it, it could cause serious issues for their friends and family and mean the end of their own national career. There's a lot more to it than somebody is just anti LGBTQ+
 
bosnian_red said:
Refusing to take part in a protest doesn't mean you are actively against it. You can take part in a protest, not take part in a protest, and be actually against it. Of course if someone doesn't take part in one, you don't know if they are against it or just don't want to take part. But for me I don't automatically assume someone is a piece of shit for not taking part in the protest.
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Refusing to do something because you don't believe it's right does, in fact, mean you're actively against it. Hard to understand how anyone can't grasp that. If he'd come out and said I support gay people and believe they should be treated as equals, but I can't support this campaign for x reason, then your argument might hold some water.
 
bosnian_red said:
You aren't thinking about it from his point of view or from someone who if they wear it, it could cause serious issues for their friends and family and mean the end of their own national career. There's a lot more to it than somebody is just anti LGBTQ+
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Then he should choose not to play in the Premier League where something that conflicts with his values is a flagship policy.
 
HTG said:
I genuinely don’t. I don’t understand which right I seem to think is supposed to be a bigger deal than it is and the positioning of the word rather is throwing me off.
Mind you, this ain’t my first language. So I tend to ask for clarification when I’m not sure about something, instead of just assuming. This is a sensible topic and I want to do it justice.
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Its simply this: Criticize his choice. DON'T start telling us how Ipswich Town "is wrong to let him have it.", "Should have benched him for the game to avoid..." or whatever other tool of ostracizing you may think up. That' making mole hills into mountains. Respect his choice and move on with your life. Even if it makes you think less of him as a character and you detest it with every fibre of your being. His personal choice is not important enough to be of ANY significance to the cause he has refused to be a part of.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Its simply this: Criticize his choice. DON'T start telling us how Ipswich Town "is wrong to let him have it.""Should have benched him for the game to avoid..." or whatever other tool of ostracizing you may think up. That' making mole hills into mountains. Respect his choice and move on with your life. Even if it makes you think less of him as a character and you detest it with every fibre of your being. His personal choice is not important enough to be of ANY significance to the cause he has refused to be a part of.
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How can anyone have respect for a choice that insinuates a dislike for a group of people based on their sexuality.
 
HTG said:
I genuinely don’t. I don’t understand which right I seem to think is supposed to be a bigger deal than it is and the positioning of the word rather is throwing me off.
Mind you, this ain’t my first language. So I tend to ask for clarification when I’m not sure about something, instead of just assuming. This is a sensible topic and I want to do it justice.
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IMO it's a non story and if somebody wants to wear it, great, if somebody doesn't, sure, doesn't make them homophobic or a cnut. There's lots of reasons why a Muslim player from a country where you can go to prison for being openly gay doesn't want to wear an armband promoting it.
 
GlazersHater said:
Dont get why he's getting criticism, no one should be forced to wear a band supporting anything they dont want to. Not supporting is not the same as hating. For example I got nothing against the LGBT community but I wouldnt feel comfortable putting a rainbow flag on my house.
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Why? Aesthetic reasons?
 
RedC said:
Refusing to do something because you don't believe it's right does, in fact, mean you're actively against it. Hard to understand how anyone can't grasp that. If he'd come out and said I support gay people and believe they should be treated as equals, but I can't support this campaign for x reason, then your argument might hold some water.
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The issue is you are adding in "don't believe it's right" based off of nothing but your assumptions. Maybe he's not doing it because it'll impact his family and relatives if he does it. Maybe he's not doing it because it would impact himself whenever he goes back home. Maybe he's not doing it because it could harm his national career. Maybe he's not doing it because he's a cnut and is actively against homosexuality and supports those laws.

I'm not gonna pretend to know what Egyptian laws are actually like on it beyond a 2 second google search that says you can be imprisoned for it, but Islamic countries famously not too open on public support for homosexuality either. So there is more or it.
 
John XII said:
Why?
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So somebody isn't allowed to live of work in a country because they come from a country with a different belief system? Now they have to actively support protests even if it might impact their friends and family otherwise it's "get out of my country"?
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Its simply this: Criticize his choice. DON'T start telling us how Ipswich Town "is wrong to let him have it.", "Should have benched him for the game to avoid..." or whatever other tool of ostracizing you may think up. That' making mole hills into mountains. Respect his choice and move on with your life. Even if it makes you think less of him as a character and you detest it with every fibre of your being. His personal choice is not important enough to be of ANY significance to the cause he has refused to be a part of.
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Thank you for clearing that up.

At no point did I tell anyone what Ipswich Town are supposed to do. So you must be confusing me with someone else.
And I don’t respect his choice and don’t have to. I respect that he has a right to make his choice. The choice he made is one I detest.
And I find it weird that you are telling me that I have to respect his choice and should move on. Almost as if I don’t get to choose freely what I want to do.
So I won’t respect his choice. I will think of him as a homophobic bigot who can rot in hell. I choose to voice that opinion. And if and when I will move on with my life, is as much my decision, as it is his to not wear that armband.
 
bosnian_red said:
So somebody isn't allowed to live of work in a country because they come from a country with a different belief system? Now they have to actively support protests even if it might impact their friends and family otherwise it's "get out of my country"?
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But, he was born in England and raised in England.
 
bosnian_red said:
The issue is you are adding in "don't believe it's right" based off of nothing but your assumptions. Maybe he's not doing it because it'll impact his family and relatives if he does it. Maybe he's not doing it because it would impact himself whenever he goes back home. Maybe he's not doing it because it could harm his national career. Maybe he's not doing it because he's a cnut and is actively against homosexuality and supports those laws.

I'm not gonna pretend to know what Egyptian laws are actually like on it beyond a 2 second google search that says you can be imprisoned for it, but Islamic countries famously not too open on public support for homosexuality either. So there is more or it.
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It literally says in the article he did it because of his religious beliefs.
 
Christianity has persecuted homosexuals for millennia, writing I love Jesus on a rainbow armband is not exactly a mistake from him, he knew what he was doing. Especially when he doesn't usually do it.

It is pretty much the same as writing "all lives matter" on an armband that says no to racism.
 
bosnian_red said:
So somebody isn't allowed to live of work in a country because they come from a country with a different belief system? Now they have to actively support protests even if it might impact their friends and family otherwise it's "get out of my country"?
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We have laws that require you not to discriminate against someone based on their sexuality, gender, etc. So actually, yes, kind of.

If he beleives that strongly about it or is that concerned how it might affect his relationship with his family, etc, What should have happened is an internal discussion with the club and him being withdrawn from the fixtures where players were wearing the armband, and even that isn't really right but its better than making a point of not wearing one because you're religious belief requires you to be homophobic.

I'm actually surprised this hasn't gotten a lot more attention because its f*cking embarassing in 2024.
 
Solius said:
Y
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HTG said:
Thank you for clearing that up.

At no point did I tell anyone what Ipswich Town are supposed to do. So you must be confusing me with someone else.
And I don’t respect his choice and don’t have to. I respect that he has a right to make his choice. The choice he made is one I detest.
And I find it weird that you are telling me that I have to respect his choice and should move on. Almost as if I don’t get to choose freely what I want to do.
So I won’t respect his choice. I will think of him as a homophobic bigot who can rot in hell. I choose to voice that opinion. And if and when I will move on with my life, is as much my decision, as it is his to not wear that armband.
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That is entirely up to you. For the record too I'm not forcing you to do anything like it's not your choice to choose. I simply made a suggestion you can pick up or discard.
 
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Oranges038 said:
But, he was born in England and raised in England.
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Fair enough! That at least gets rid of the family back home reasons. I also am entirely speculating that it could impact his national career. I'm just saying I don't think it's a big deal because there are always multiple reasons that could be behind it, he's free to choose to support or not to support it, and not supporting it doesn't mean he's actively against it given there are other inconveniences for him it could cause. One of those reasons for not doing it is of course the shit one of him thinking some people don't have rights like the rest, but it's not my default assumption.
 
noodlehair said:
We have laws that require you not to discriminate against someone based on their sexuality, gender, etc. So actually, yes, kind of.

If he beleives that strongly about it or is that concerned how it might affect his relationship with his family, etc, What should have happened is an internal discussion with the club and him being withdrawn from the fixtures where players were wearing the armband, and even that isn't really right but its better than making a point of not wearing one because you're religious belief requires you to be homophobic.

I'm actually surprised this hasn't gotten a lot more attention because its f*cking embarassing in 2024.
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Don't discriminate isn't the same as actively protest for their cause. It does end up looking that way because I'm sure it's not a situation of they're told they have to wear one, but more a "hey this event is going on and you can choose to wear a rainbow armband" and he simply chooses not to while most just do it and move on, but I don't think it's a big deal when there are more factors to it from players from countries where it's persecuted.

RedC said:
It literally says in the article he did it because of his religious beliefs.
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Yeah again I'd say all those reasons fall under this blanket sentence and is almost something he publicly might have to say for his national career (or if it impacts any relatives in Egypt). I just don't think it's a big deal and never a surprise when any player from a Muslim majority country chooses not to wear it, and it doesn't mean all of them are actively against it. Quite often they simply don't want to become the face of a movement that goes against the rules of his country (or in his case, his father's country). Because let's be honest, Bruno wearing a rainbow armband means feck all in the grand scheme of things compared to if a player from a country where it's forbidden wore one.
 
bosnian_red said:
So somebody isn't allowed to live of work in a country because they come from a country with a different belief system? Now they have to actively support protests even if it might impact their friends and family otherwise it's "get out of my country"?
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Not sure how you've inferred all that. I just said he could choose not to work in the Premier League. If my employer wanted me to do something that, in your analogy, could potentially harm my family, I'd go and work somewhere else.
 
John XII said:
Not sure how you've inferred all that. I just said he could choose not to work in the Premier League. If my employer wanted me to do something that, in your analogy, could potentially harm my family, I'd go and work somewhere else.
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I mean he's not going to say no to premier league football or being captain because he'd get a week of stick for not wearing a rainbow armband when it's a choice for people to participate in the protest or not. Most simply do it and move on. Some choose not to for "reasons". Some of the reasons suck, some are totally understandable. I'm not going to jump and assume someone is a cnut without actually knowing them or anything really happening beyond somebody not participating in a protest.
 
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