Herrera has a naughty footballing side that could be annoying to the opposition. He constantly nags opposition midfielders by tailing them ever minute of the game. His size allows him to get himself in front of the opposition to break up plays. Fellaini concedes the fouls when he tries the same due to his bulky body. Yes if he keeps up the current form, he could do a great job.
Herrera at Holding
- Thread starter Jacky Quacky
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Hopefully that knock he took at the end there isn't anything.
They didn't find balance until they gave Casemiro a run in the side.
I'm grouping your quotes together because what I'm saying basically applies generally. I'm not against having a player like Mata in a midfield 3 because it can work and I love his playing style but against top teams it'd be a massive gamble. One that we can't offet with other factors like the ones I'm gonna explain below.
There isn't a top side in the world today that plays a simple 2 man midfield/have a light no.10 like Mata in it. I've said this elsewhere but I'll repeat again.
Real Madrid play in a two horse league and have offensive juggernauts in Ronaldo, Benzema, Bale and Rodríguez etc. They have been able to play with it because of the quality of their players all over the pitch. Who did Zidane start with against Atletico in the Champions League Final and has become a mainstay in his midfield? Kroos and Modric obviously but also now Casemiro.
Atletico Madrid play a 4-4-2 but they have inverted, disciplined midfielders out wide (Turan, Saul and Koke) so it's effectively 4-3-3 (they usually have one offensive winger to support Griezmann and Torres/striker).
Bayern? Again under Pep, they play hybrid formations that means they can smother the midfield, control possession and let their superior attacking players dominate the (2 horse) league.
Dortmund the same.
Juve the same.
PSG the same.
Barca the same.
I'm too lazy to explain in detail but you guys get my drift right? Against mid table teams we don't need to but we should be looking to build something towards a midfield 3 that doesn't operate with a dedicated traditional fleet footed no.10 because imo it's not effective against the top teams. Miki on the other hand is another proposition. He's got size, stamina, pace, defensive mentality AND a very creative output. I'd be happy with him ahead of Pogba/Herrera. Even then, it's a toss up between playing Miki wide right and instead having a Schneiderlin/Carrick at the base.
We don't have those superior, all clicking offensive attacking players and definitely not the defensive stability or being able to roll over teams because of how non-competitive it is relative to our squad (atm at least).
So in essence a midfield three of a defensive midfielder in the ilk of Schneiderlin with Herrera and Pogba in front of them is a MUCH stronger potential proposition compared to Herrera, Pogba and Mata imo.
Keane and Scholes would play very well against the top teams today but the top teams now have similar players in their midfield PLUS another one with a specialist duty (defensive, glue guy or even more attacking).
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I thought that was why we signed Pogba?
One of my main problems with LVG was with him being unable to recognize the value of Herrera, he was the automatic scapegoat for a poor team performance time and time again. He may have made the odd mistake
but I prefer that to somebody who hides when the going gets tough.
but I prefer that to somebody who hides when the going gets tough.
His distribution and the way he makes passes quickly is why we are better with him in holding midfield.
Not really. When LVG was here, both carrick and bfs were taking both 2 DM spots who were better than him at least in reputation with bfs. Also morgan played there quite often.
One of the problems (maybe the only problem) LVG had with Herrera was his lack of displicence with positioning which he worked on a lot and became the player he is today. He said so himself.
There were some very shit performances from him on DM roles last season. Probably due to lack of match fitness.
Anyway, almost everyone was saying he was better up front because of it back then but Rooney played there as we know.
In games where the opposition press us, he's very suitable. Similarly in games where we want to apply a press. Otherwise, Carrick would suit. I see them as tactical options to be used by the pragmatic Mourinho. I don't expect a settled 11 really, more of a tailored team to counter or exploit other teams.
me I don't buy the he has issue defensively argument. That lad clearly relishes his defensive duty and is intelligent. As a midfielder he already possesses a good positional sense and aggression. There is no reason why coaching and practice can't develop him into an archetype of a DM. If a Schwienstieger could switch from wing to DM with aplomb at a similar age. There is good reason to believe Herrera can follow suit
I'd say Herrera is better defensively than Pogba, certainly postionally. I don't think Pogba would be as effective holding on his own as Herrera is.
Think we need to give him a run of games in that role to determine if he can play it, otherwise need someone in the summer. He's looked fine this year whenever he's played there though.
Reminds me of a bit more aggressive Mikel Arteta.
Reminds me of a bit more aggressive Mikel Arteta.
While I often mock MOTD's analysis, I appreciate Keown highlighting how key Herrera's work in the holding role was to us yesterday. It was the best Xabi Alonso impression I have ever seen!
Tottenham, for example, have the same set up as Leicester, just with a No. 10. Leicester had Drinkwater (holding) and Amartey (ball-winner) and Tottenham have Dier (holding) and Wanyama (ball-winner). So it makes sense to play Herrera and Pogba against those two midfields, just against Tottenham put a DM behind to oppose the No. 10.
It's not so much for me whether he's holding or not, just the sort of player he's going up against. He'd be considered a holding midfielder today but he was up against Drinkwater so it's okay. Up against Dele Alli for Tottenham, he would have a more difficult time.
With regards to who can be the playmaker, I'd say whoever is the free player. Today Herrera was the most free because Drinkwater had to go back to cover Mata and this left Herrera free. So Herrera was important with making us tick. Against a 4-2-3-1, it is one CB who is the most free. So we should have a creative at CB when playing against that formation. It also means that against 4-4-2 the second CB can be more limited (Smalling) and against a 3 man midfield the No. 6 can be more limited (Fellaini).
It's not so much for me whether he's holding or not, just the sort of player he's going up against. He'd be considered a holding midfielder today but he was up against Drinkwater so it's okay. Up against Dele Alli for Tottenham, he would have a more difficult time.
With regards to who can be the playmaker, I'd say whoever is the free player. Today Herrera was the most free because Drinkwater had to go back to cover Mata and this left Herrera free. So Herrera was important with making us tick. Against a 4-2-3-1, it is one CB who is the most free. So we should have a creative at CB when playing against that formation. It also means that against 4-4-2 the second CB can be more limited (Smalling) and against a 3 man midfield the No. 6 can be more limited (Fellaini).
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I think people under appreciate Herrera due to the fact that he was always LVG's scapegoat and prejudice this against him. Herrera came on against City, when we were all over the place and restored order in the midfield which made the game a contest. Also it worth remembering that this is the first time in several seasons that he is specializing in the role so there will be the inevitable growing pains that always come with a permanent positional switch. As for your Spurs analogy I think Spurs are not the most dangerous side going forward that we might wish to employ special plans to stop them, what you do going forward matters more and in this Herrera aids us because he makes us transition quicker than a Fellaini would.
Another thing to note is that DMs/holding midfield players are mostly groomed/more like stumbled upon at most teams. In that vein I would expect this experiment to occasionally hurt us just like the Blind to CB did but eventually the squad will be richer for it - right now Blind is a first choice contender at CB but when Van Gaal invested the minutes and points on him we wanted him quartered and butchered. I feel the same with Herrera.
Yesterday's 2 in the middle worked due to the way Leicester plays. I'm not sure Pogba and Herrera are the dream ticket to control midfield against teams who pack the middle.
I think you plan for every team. I remember Alex Ferguson saying one time that the club had a lot of difficult games coming up (or something similar to that) and that he hoped he picked the right players/team. And didn't Mourinho pick Lingard and Rashford today because of their pace?
If he's good enough, that's fine. My points still stands about what sort of players we need for different matches.
And Herrera has been good enough so far. Plus my point about why attacking matters more than holding a side was because thats where we are strongest at, imagine having Zlatan, Rashford and an in form Martial, teams will be more worried about stopping us. We have the firepower and in Pogba-Herrera we have the people to give them ammunition.
The headlines were about Rooney but it was Herrera over Fellaini which made a bigger difference to our play yesterday. Hopefully he can keep it up.
Agreed.Herrera is simply a much better footballer than Fellaini.
He had a very good game and was my man of the match, but we still had quite a few situations when Leicester City could easily bypass our midfield with Herrera and Pogba nowhere to be seen. Better teams would have exploited that a lot more. That said he´s still growing into the position and is probably our best option currently.
Still hope we get a "specialist" for that position next summer, our midfielders are shockingly bad at tracking runners from midfield.
Still hope we get a "specialist" for that position next summer, our midfielders are shockingly bad at tracking runners from midfield.
I can swear that before this season started everyone qas sayinh Herrera must play upfront, in #10. But Jose wanted him deeper, suddenly he is our best holding mid now and it was LVG's fault for not playing him at holding mid. Good job.
It won't. We would have to put another midfielder in there. That is where Carrick would come in.
We played 3 in the middle. Mata was as deep as Pogba if you look at the heatmaps.
It was basically Mata in for Rooney.
Yes. He was and it worked beautifully, but in some games he might be sacrificed or unfortunately moved wide to accommodate another more defensive midfielder. Depending on the circumstances. I just wouldn't want Rooney back in. I have got that used to Rooney clogging everything up as a SS.
I am not a Herrera fan and I cannot understand the love he gets on here.
HOWEVER, in the last few games (especially yesterday) he has shown great desire, passion, energy. We need more of these types of players.
For those who didn't see it, on MOTD yesterday, seconds before the Mata goal, Herrera was shouting at Mata, reminding him of what they had planned in training.
Blind, Herrera and Mata - all knew what was about to happen.
Blind is regarded as one of our most intelligent footballers in the game today, but I did not realise that Herrera was also like that.
He is certainly winning me over and I would absolutely start with him in our next league game (and if he has the energy, in our EL game, too).
HOWEVER, in the last few games (especially yesterday) he has shown great desire, passion, energy. We need more of these types of players.
For those who didn't see it, on MOTD yesterday, seconds before the Mata goal, Herrera was shouting at Mata, reminding him of what they had planned in training.
Blind, Herrera and Mata - all knew what was about to happen.
Blind is regarded as one of our most intelligent footballers in the game today, but I did not realise that Herrera was also like that.
He is certainly winning me over and I would absolutely start with him in our next league game (and if he has the energy, in our EL game, too).
He's looking really good this season. Against other teams, Mata and Pogba around him might not be enough protection, but I'd have Herrera in there no matter who we play. His touch, awareness, speed of thought appears to be back to the levels it should be.
For me the best midfield would be Herrera Pogba Blind with Mkhitaryan Zlatan and Marshall up front
Rashford and Rooney as back up strikers and Carrick Mata and Jesse as back up midfielders. The defense pretty much picks itself
Rashford and Rooney as back up strikers and Carrick Mata and Jesse as back up midfielders. The defense pretty much picks itself
The hiding Barcelona gave us in the Champs League finals comes to mind. Xavi + Iniesta was as good as it gets. We couldn't get anywhere close to them. Fellaini's got close to a foot on each of them and we all know the gulf in quality
Does anyone have his pass map from Saturday? Would be interesting to see what he did with it.
Football is such a simple game yet with all the analysis that goes on these days it is often over complicated.
Two big lads at centre half who want to defend. Two full backs you are comfortably on the ball, decent enough in the tackle and positional get in the right place. A midfielder that anchors, presses when an appropriate, snaps into tackles and plays it easy and always backs up play and provides an option to the lad in possession. Another midfielder that gets on the ball and probes and looks to get the ball forward and get forward himself. Two wide men who are quick and direct. A focal point #9 and a technical footballer that can float about, pick pockets of space and knit it all together. Easy! So simple. You don’t even have to be that good, Blackburn and Leicester both won the title with that simple philosophy and it’s what we did on Saturday.
Players in their right positions. No passengers. Everybody wanting the ball (which shows that we do have some character in the side and / or Jose has worked wonders during the week).
The argument of bringing back Fellaini for Stoke due to height, why? He’s dog awful in the air. He’s a penalty for pulling waiting to happen. With Smalling, Bailly, Pogba and Zlatan we have plenty of height let’s not lose the ability to move the ball quickly in the middle just for a few inches at set pieces. Let Ander grow into that role. It was only when he came to United that Carrick was played as a proper full time #6. Ander has the ability, passion and determination to make himself the new Michael Carrick, I hope he now gets a run of games to make that position his own. I thought he got the decision of when to press (how he’s been brought up) and when to sit and hold his position absolutely bang on against Leicester.
Two big lads at centre half who want to defend. Two full backs you are comfortably on the ball, decent enough in the tackle and positional get in the right place. A midfielder that anchors, presses when an appropriate, snaps into tackles and plays it easy and always backs up play and provides an option to the lad in possession. Another midfielder that gets on the ball and probes and looks to get the ball forward and get forward himself. Two wide men who are quick and direct. A focal point #9 and a technical footballer that can float about, pick pockets of space and knit it all together. Easy! So simple. You don’t even have to be that good, Blackburn and Leicester both won the title with that simple philosophy and it’s what we did on Saturday.
Players in their right positions. No passengers. Everybody wanting the ball (which shows that we do have some character in the side and / or Jose has worked wonders during the week).
The argument of bringing back Fellaini for Stoke due to height, why? He’s dog awful in the air. He’s a penalty for pulling waiting to happen. With Smalling, Bailly, Pogba and Zlatan we have plenty of height let’s not lose the ability to move the ball quickly in the middle just for a few inches at set pieces. Let Ander grow into that role. It was only when he came to United that Carrick was played as a proper full time #6. Ander has the ability, passion and determination to make himself the new Michael Carrick, I hope he now gets a run of games to make that position his own. I thought he got the decision of when to press (how he’s been brought up) and when to sit and hold his position absolutely bang on against Leicester.
Top post. The fundamentals of the game are very simple.
For Herrera the key now is consistency. In fact that's always been the case for him since he arrived.
A consistent position in a settled team and his consistency will come. He’s often fallen into the trap POgab did against Watford. Recognising whats going wrong and trying to solve the problem himself. Herrera has played 6, 8 and 10 for us. He’s never played either position for 2-3 games. He’s played #10 with the likes of Fellaini and Morgan behind him. Realising that they don’t show/want the ball, he ends up trying to do that too. Playing as a 6 with Rooney or Fellaini in the 10, Herrera see’s we should be pressing and vacates his position to try to do what others should be doing.
Give Ander Herrera a consistent run within a settled side and I have absolutely no doubt he’ll become the type of player Michael Carrick was. Guaranteed 7 or 8 out of 10 every week. Most importantly, providing a base to our attacking play and letting Pogba play his natural game and Juan Mata go influence the game.
People said Carrick couldn’t defend yet he became an excellent #6 because he has a football brain. He knew his job and he knew that of he did it well he’d contribute massively. I see Herrera being the same player. He’s a leader too. Everytime attacks broke down, Herrera was in position and screaming, shouting and organising team mates into position.
I thought he was the difference I our performance and I think him playing there will benefit the whole team and he and us will both get better and better.
Not convinced he can really thrive as a 6, I think he would be even better when paired with a solid player behind him. Unfortunately Morgan has flattered to deceive, and Carrick is on his last legs. One thing is sure : Herrera must be first choice + Pogba and another CDM.
Completely agree. It's not worth sacrificing the footballing ability that Herrera brings for a bit of physicality in the center. Smalling and Bailly should offer enough of that defensively to deal with any forward in the league. I also felt that Herrera's agility and acceleration helps him a lot to close down and prevent dangerous passes to the forwards, something that Fellaini rarely did well, usually he would run up to a man far to late don't prevent the pass and just foul the man on the ball.
I also agree about your tactical analysis which is also the reason why I say a 4-4-2 that some of our fans are still in love with isn't all to different from the 4-2-3-1 we play under Mou. One striker tends to drop off anyways making the 4-4-2 in attack essentially a 4-2-3-1 and in defense a 4-2-3-1 usually defends like 4-4-2 once we have to drop deep.
After all the game at Leicester also showed a very important thing, it's not so much about our formation but about the fact that we need players who put in some work in terms of closing down opponents and can transition fast enough and not take ages to get sorted defensively or find a passing option in attack, that's the fundamental things we need to get right again and we really did against Leicester.
Now I hope this will last us for a while. We need to build some momentum to keep up with City.
Thanks
Not many passes actually going backwards.Indeed.
In big games 4-3-3 is must for us with probably Herrera/Pogba box to box. Otherwise what I saw with Herrera holding in a nice and fluid 4-2-3-1 was really good and we should see it more often than not this year. Herrera and Mata were excellent.
I think for the majority of games they'll suffice and then someone behind them for the tougher games.
If Ibra doesnt start i can see Fellaini starting to provide the aerial assistance instead.
If Ibra doesnt start i can see Fellaini starting to provide the aerial assistance instead.
Why? He isn't actually that good in the air. If it is decided we need that height, play Carrick. You get height without loosing ability. Barca / Bayern etc don't worry about height, why should we?
Smalling, Bailley, Pogba, Zlatan, Rashford is no midget, we must have averaged one of the tallest sides in the league on Saturday, we don't need Fellaini's height.