Herrera at Holding

criticalanalysis said:
It's harsh but it's the lesser of the evils.

Keeping Mata in the squad means being a lot lighter in the midfield/central areas. If we were a super organised/on the front foot/pressing team like how City/Barca/Bayern play and have dominatating wingers then it would be fine but we're far from that.

Basically we're saying for now, when playing against stronger teams/midfields, we'd prefer Pogba's physicality and creativity over Mata's finesse and creativity.
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If Mou managed to make it work with Ozil at 10 surely he can do it with Mata. Ozil was a complete liability defending and don't think Cristiano or Benzema worked a lot more, it was basically Alonso, Khedira and Di Maria holding the mid so Mkhi, Pogba and Herrera could replicate that even better as Mata defends better than Ozil

davidmichael said:
For me Herrera definitely ISN'T a holding midfielder nor should he be playing in a midfield two with someone who's natural instinct is to bomb forward like Pogba.

Pogba and Herrera have seen the best form of their career as part of a three man midfield and with a deep lying playmaker who sits in front of the back four dictating play, in Pogba's case it was Pirlo and with Herrera it was Carrick.

I think you simply HAVE to play Carrick if only for the fact his calmness and willingness to sit helps out the defence a hell of a lot and with legs either side of him as we have in Herrera, Schneiderlin and Pogba then Carrick doesn't have to run much and can simply let his brain do his job with his positioning.
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That's where Blind comes into action playing as a CB/LB. A lot of players have been key to their team playmaking from those positions

EDIT: You could even go for a diamond 442 with Blind playing DM helped by Herrera, Pogba as the box-to-box and Mata/Mkhi playing as the 10, Ibra and Martial/Rashford as strikers
 
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No need to use him as a holding midfielder. Use Blind or Carrick in there and free herrera and Pogba up to perform roles their best suited for.
 
kidbob said:
No need to use him as a holding midfielder. Use Blind or Carrick in there and free herrera and Pogba up to perform roles their best suited for.
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I think there is. Today showed exactly that
 
Jacky Quacky said:
I think there is. Today showed exactly that
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He done well there but there's little evidence to believe blind wouldn't do better. I think herrera needs to have freedom to get forward to get the best of him. Also allows us to use Pogba in his juve role.

Long term I'd be looking for a top holding player. 433 for me is the way forward with these players.
 
They were able to find openings in front of the defence again way too easily. Luckily, Leicester were off their game today. The space that should be occupied by a DM has been a tactical issue for us this season.

I think it's fine in the smaller games, but in the big games we really should go 4-3-3, with Carrick / Blind / Fellaini dropping in front of the defence. He's done the same things at Madrid and Chelsea, and we should have done it against City if not for Rooney.

It might not be an issue if the other team plays a 4-3-3 as well. A 4-2-3-1 actually works better there because the #10 can press their deep playmaker. Fergie did it with Park against Pirlo. But if the opposition plays a 4-2-3-1, their #10 can just sit in behind the central midfielders and cause havoc.
 
kidbob said:
He done well there but there's little evidence to believe blind wouldn't do better. I think herrera needs to have freedom to get forward to get the best of him. Also allows us to use Pogba in his juve role.

Long term I'd be looking for a top holding player. 433 for me is the way forward with these players.
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I think Blind will return to centre half when Shaw returns, so of the players available, Herrera looks our more realistic option for now, rotated with Carrick. He was excellent today though, and having him in this deeper position allowed Pogba more freedom, so his game excelled too.
 
kidbob said:
He done well there but there's little evidence to believe blind wouldn't do better. I think herrera needs to have freedom to get forward to get the best of him. Also allows us to use Pogba in his juve role.

Long term I'd be looking for a top holding player. 433 for me is the way forward with these players.
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Blind would do nothing in that role, like he did during his first season with us. He lacks any sort of aggressiveness and is unable to exert control onto the game like Carrick does.
 
I think, in big games, we need Carrick in there to shore things up but against the rest Herrera would be fine as a holding player.
 
It's not his ideal role, but we don't have 'ideal' options there. It's about what's better for the team as it is composed currently.

Carrick would complement Pogba well, but I was under the assumption Jose doesn't like to rotate much. And Carrick would have to be used somewhat sparingly.
 
ThomasEmil said:
Why everybody keeps insisting on leaving Mata out of their preferred starting eleven keeps surprising me. I'd take him as a #10 any day of the week.
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Think it's more people would prefer a switch to 4-3-3. Mata obviously upsets that balance, otherwise Pogba is sitting deep and Herrera is likely out of the team.

I still think Mata could potentially work on the right as long as Valencia is allowed to bomb forward at every opportunity ahead of him to stop the full-back just tracking him inside every time.
 
We won the European cup with Scholes and Carrick as our midfield two. Both were positionally good but, more importantly, both were creative on the ball. One-note players like Makalele can help accommodate luxury players who don't work hard defensively for the team but can dominate their area of the pitch on their own. But we don't have anyone like that. Herrera as a holding midfielder is more than good enough. Our centre backs are both very physical, so he only really needs to be there to plug the gaps. We don't need him to steamroll players.

The main reason Fellaini played in midfield was to add a bit of height and muscle in front of Blind. As long as Bailly/Smalling continue at CB, Herrera can play in midfield. He can be as good as anyone. The only thing he's lacking is long-range passing, but that's not necessarily the worst thing in the world.
 
Organic Potatoes said:
It's not his ideal role, but we don't have 'ideal' options there. It's about what's better for the team as it is composed currently.

Carrick would complement Pogba well, but I was under the assumption Jose doesn't like to rotate much. And Carrick would have to be used somewhat sparingly.
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I was pleased when Jose brought Carrick on today. 'Sparingly' is open to interpretation; he's definitely not going to be a 2*90 mins a week guy, but I was glad to see his excellent performance mid-week got him on the bench, and then into the game today. He's still an outstanding defensive midfielder, and the perfect sub for when we are 1:0 ahead and need a calm head to take control of midfield and just close a match off. Even that is probably doing him an injustice, he's Prem quality as a starter too.
 
Dante said:
We won the European cup with Scholes and Carrick as our midfield two. Both were positionally good but, more importantly, both were creative on the ball. One-note players like Makalele can help accommodate luxury players who don't work hard defensively for the team but can dominate their area of the pitch on their own. But we don't have anyone like that. Herrera as a holding midfielder is more than good enough. Our centre backs are both very physical, so he only really needs to be there to plug the gaps. We don't need him to steamroll players.

The main reason Fellaini played in midfield was to add a bit of height and muscle in front of Blind. As long as Bailly/Smalling continue at CB, Herrera can play in midfield. He can be as good as anyone. The only thing he's lacking is long-range passing, but that's not necessarily the worst thing in the world.
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That's a good observation, I was wondering why Fellaini wasn't playing today and hadn't worked it out. Herrera took up a similar position to Fellaini in defensive plays, pretty much in the centre of a back 5, but with Smalling's physicality and height, Herrera's role was different - not covering for Blind's aerial weakness as you say, but rather complementing Smalling's ball playing weakness and acting as a passing outlet. It was a very effective combination, much as Fellaini and Blind has been too.
 
Watch this and you can see how Herrera takes up exactly the same positions Fellaini does. Except this time Herrera plays the role with much more purpose and aggressiveness. His passing at times looked far better than what Fellaini has produced for us, he has also looked more assured in tighter situations than Fellaini. I think he's an upgrade on Fellaini and a much more complete partner for Pogba to have.
 
His pressing today as very good. Gets in as the opposing player just barely had time for a first touch - covers the ground quicker than Fellaini. Done well on the ball also. Was actually my pick for MoM, him or Mata.
 
I remember when LVG tried him first time at holding against Chelsea and before the game i was convinced thats going to disaster but he had a good game. In the end it might be his best position/role and id certainly prefer him over Schneiderlin and Fellaini.
 
Just because it's fashionable to have one player who sits and two who attack, that doesn't mean it's the only way to play a midfield 3.

Having 3 players who contribute in both directions is just as effective. Arguably more so if they're drilled well. Herrera + Pogba + Mata could be a fantastic combination which covers for each other's weaknesses. It's got everything, even though no individual is necessarily a specialist.

The more important point is that it's a combination that calms everyone down. When Pogba plays next to Fellaini he often panics and tries to do everything on his own, eg. against City. The same was true of Herrera when he played next to Carrick against Stoke last year. Our midfielders are at their worst when they're overburdened with the sole responsibility to create up the pitch. Play them next to each other and that pressure is halved. That's the best way to get over the inconsistency issues and make them a potent unit.
 
Probably would've been third in my MoM vote behind Mata and Blind. We may not always play at a high tempo with him as the 6, but the potential to rapidly change the pace of the game is always there. His comfort in tight spaces got us out of a few sticky situations. His positioning isn't quite there, but if Jose decides that is where he wants him Herrera definitely has the intelligence to improve on it.
 
Against a side with really good, progressive midfielders who want to make runs off our midfield's shoulders, I don't think he's that suited. But for the moment, he looks the best we've got, so he deserves a chance to try to keep the shirt in the long term.
 
I've never bought that AM rubbish. This is the position he was playing for Bilbao all those years we were scouting him. He can't necessarily be your defensive midfielder in a game against a side with more attacking threat through the middle, but if you're going to play him it needs to be as a proper midfielder, nice and deep.

I love how well he and Valencia link up. They have done ever since we bought him. The pair of them and Mata constituted one of those three-man flanks we used so effectively in Van Gaal's spring 2015 purple patch, didn't they?
 
The guy from ESPN made an excellent point. Herrera at DM ensures our attacking players get the ball quickly because he's always looking to play at a high tempo.
That can only be a good thing.
 
I think if our team plays like today, Herrera at DM is an excellent decision. Mourinho said he was happy as well, including praise for his pressing.

He may not be Scholes or Pirlo, but its not like he is a terrible passer either. Think he escaped well from several tight spots, spots I´m more doubtful someone like Carrick would handle as well.

Also, from a fan perspective, you got to feel some warmth towards a DM who press the opponents CB in the 90th minute on 4-1 up. Just like he did on 3-1 against Northampton.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
I remember when LVG tried him first time at holding against Chelsea and before the game i was convinced thats going to disaster but he had a good game. In the end it might be his best position/role and id certainly prefer him over Schneiderlin and Fellaini.
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He was immense in that game imo. Best player on the pitch.
 
Adisa said:
He was immense in that game imo. Best player on the pitch.
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From memory he gave a few easy balls away in dangerous areas so immense would be pushing it IMO but yeah, he was very good and a pleasant surprise because i didnt expect that at the time.
 
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