I think the key diff of this comparison is that city play possession while we don't?
Herrera at Holding
- Thread starter Jacky Quacky
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But that's his job. He's a water carrier. He does the dirty work to allow proper footballers to play. We don't want pogba and our number 10 chasing back midfield runners all game.
So by conceding 2 goals from midfield runners, then fouling a midfield runner for the penalty. He hasn't done his job.
Fellaini was rubbish against Watford and rubbish against City. He was dropped because the midfield wasn't functioning.
Had we not conceded the 3 goals which Fellaini has question marks over him for and we won the Watford game 0-1, would he have been dropped for Leicester??? No! Therefore he was dropped for not performing.
He was good against Bournemouth, Hull and Southampton. He was dreadful against Watford and City.
I'm sorry to say this but I think I'm right calling you clueless before. Those three things that I highlighted from your post sums up about you.
I will let you know something important about football is a team work game not a one man job. If you think it's enough for just a single player to do everything by himself covering other player's tasks and try to marking and stopping 3 players at the same time, you are clueless. Just because Fellaini is the water carrier doesn't mean Pogba and Rooney can just standing and ball watching all the time.
Conceding two goals? Which Watford goals are you talking about?
1st goal wasn't even his fault, it was clearly Martial fault.
2nd goal wasn't even his fault, it was Luke Shaw's fault. And 2nd goal is actually a good example why Fellaini was doing other player's task while Pogba was ball watching. Try watch the second goal, why Pogba didn't mark any player? Why didn't he intercept the pass? Fellaini was with another Watford player but he had to cover Pogba's undisciplined task and went to Pogba's man but it was too late. Like I said before it was impossible to try mark 2 or 3 players at the same time.
3rd goal, why didn't Bailly won it from the first place? Surely for someone who looks athletic like him shouldn't lose duel with a weaker player.
I already said this Fellaini was dropped not because he played poor but because Jose wanted to change the playing style. Instead of having ball winner as his no6, he changed it to a deeplying playmaker role as his no6. If we didn't lose against Watford that means the previous playing style work and there is no reason why would a manager change it.
So as a ball winning midfielder what did he contribute. The other guy saying Fellaini had a good game tells me he made two tackles and one interception. Two tackles…….29% success rate and what is it you call him??? A ball winner.
Your correct, it is a team game. A team needs various individuals for it to function correctly. A water carrying, ball winner is there to work hard and win the ball.
First goal, of course Martial gave the ball away (contentious decision). If was Fellaini’s direct opposition that scored.
Second goal, Fellaini gave a needless freekick away on half way, the freekick was taken and the lad run off Fellaini. Shaw should have been tighter, POgba and smalling go to close down the cross and then when the ball is pulled back its Fellaini’s man, the bloke he fouled who scores.
Third goal, his clumbersome tackling gave a penalty away.
Other players contributed, but Fellaini was involved in the conceding of all 3.
He was dropped because we are a better team without him. He could individually have a good game every week but collectively (it’s a team game don’t forget) we’d be better off without him.
He’s awful on the ball, he’s immobile, he’s clumsy, he’s liability when it comes to fouling.
Now call me clueless all you want but I’ll tell you a couple of things that are absolute fact.
- Leicester City was easily our best performance since Fellaini arrived at the club. He didn’t play. It was noticeable how we didn’t have any technical deficiencies. Apart from a worldy we never looked like conceding. We could have scored more. Id rather see that than the Watford performance.
- Fellaini isn’t good enough to play for a title winning team. If he starts the majority of games, we wont win the league.
I'd ignore him tbh. The guy seem to be ignorant how football works. He probably blames fellaini for the feyenoord defeat too.
Clearly you are in a trolling mood. I'm only responsible for what I say, Never how you choose to interpret it. The champions league also does not only start and end with games in the last 16 so why you're have inanely focussed on it, you alone understand. If your brain can't process that I've been talking about the entire champions league campaign of that year. That's on you ......good bye
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I know exactly how football works. I watch it live every week. I don't real off numbers from a website and pass them off as my opinion. You still cant give me a straight answer on how YOU thought performed.
When using your silly little stats you also need to quote them comprehensively with out altering them. I checked them out. Yeah Fellaini won two tackles. A 29% success rate. Not 2 out of 2. I also now know why you refused to answer my question about how many "aerial duels" he lost. He had a 67% success rate. Hardly dominant.
Prath92, I take it that's your year of birth.
Mike09, assuming that's when you started watching football.
I'll give you a bit of advice. Watch as much football as you can and form you own opinions.
Stats provide absolutely zero context. They can easily be manipulated. You don't know who as compiled them and how accurate they are. Watch the game yourself.
I have no idea how did you get the 29% stats but okay sure. You are someone who takes Robbie savage as an expert too.
If you think sites like whoscored manipulate stats in favour of Fellaini (or anyone for that matter) then good luck. You are even more crazy than I thought.
For someone who claim to 'watch football', you say a lot of shit. Like Pogba and Rooney don't need to track runners because there is Fellaini as water carrier. That doesn't work even in u10 level forget the premier league. The simple fact is both the 'midfield runners' who scored were supposed to be marked by Pogba (who you claim was closing in to stop the cross for the second goal yet was doing nothing of the sort), then you say we haven't won this well since Fellaini was bought which again isn't true (3-0 vs Spurs for instance), you say Fellaini is not able on the ball when he has had more key passes than Herrera who is capable on the ball (oh ya whoscored made up the stat I'm sure). There are more. Your initial post was that he won 0 headers that game so even 67% seems to actually prove you wrong. Finding mistakes in your logic is like finding fish in the ocean it would seem.
All in all, I don't know which game you are watching. Maybe you are watching Ligue 1. Wouldn't be implausible. I'll give you an advice. I'll give you an advice too. Maybe understand how this game works. Watching games with half knowledge is dangerous.
Edit- forgot to congratulate on your wonderful banter. Very Ice Cube esque.
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From the squawka site you quoted. Clear as day.
As I say, numbers don't give context. He got nowhere near a host of dangerous balls that's came into the box. So in context, when it mattered he wasn't dominant.
Yet another post goes by where you say "I know nothing" yet you still can not provide me with your own opinion. You keep talking about websites. Who gives a feck about websites? Wayne Rooney got about a million points on dream team last year.....he was shite.
A trolling mood? What? Because I've told you what you said is completely made up bullshit to suit your argument?
Fine - let's take the whole CL campaign into account instead of just the last game. Fletcher played three group stage games in midfield and Hargreaves played zero. Neither played a single game in midfield in the last sixteen. So three games in total in the entire tournament between both in midfield. I don't know what your logic is when it comes to maths and percentages but it certainly doesn't seem like .. what was it you said .. "many games"?
I didn't try argue with whatever your "point" was, I told you that your statement about Fletcher and Hargreaves was made up. Your point means nothing to me. It seems you're the one who did a big u-turn once I told you that neither of them were a part of our midfield and decided to claim I'm missing your grander point - like an "oh shit, he I fecked that one up, tell him he just doesn't understand!" - but I guess it wouldn't be like you to post stuff and then not be able to back it up, right, Chief, O' ambidextrous penalty taker?
Don't want to take part in who played how but 67% success rate is pretty huge and that's dominant. For example, Vidic had similar record when it came to aerial duels.
Vidic had that record over a career not a game. Also, being dominant in the air, like Vida was, meant planting the header clear. Something Fellaini never does when he actually does win it.
Again, can I please point to my comment about stats and context. Those headers Vida was planting clear, most of them where in the box preventing goal scoring opportunities.
Fellaini headers the ball from midfield back to the opposition centre backs, most of the time a better player would take into under control and redistribute it, thus starting an attack. The consequence of what fellaini does is initially give possession back to he opposition. Then, its raises his "aerial duels" stats do give the impression he's better in the air than he actually is.
Like I said I don't want to involve in this to and fro about how Fellaini played, I'm just saying 67% is a very good stat when it comes to aerial duels.
When it mattered? You talk as if he conceded goals after losing aerial battles. As it has been time and again proved to you, the goals were as a result of Pogba hving the defensive nous of a 15 year old.
Now I have absolutely no doubt you don't even understand how football works.
I mean what does this even mean? Do you mean to say most DMs or CMs instead of heading the ball, take a high ball into their chest/feet and then pass it? Coz I have rarely seen that happen, if at all it happens. Most high balls have to be dealt with by heading it and as a defender you try to head it away from your goal and an attacker to the opposite side. You need your other midfielders to win the second balls. It's basic stuff in football. Unless it's Fellaini's fault that he doesn't head it from here and runs to where the ball has gone and wins that ball too. Even if you assume this stuff is realistic who do we have who does this anyway? No one.
I have already answered your opinion question long back
When it mattered? You talk as if he conceded goals after losing aerial battles. As it has been time and again proved to you, the goals were as a result of Pogba hving the defensive nous of a 15 year old.
Now I have absolutely no doubt you don't even understand how football works.
I mean what does this even mean? Do you mean to say most DMs or CMs instead of heading the ball, take a high ball into their chest/feet and then pass it? Coz I have rarely seen that happen, if at all it happens. Most high balls have to be dealt with by heading it and as a defender you try to head it away from your goal and an attacker to the opposite side. You need your other midfielders to win the second balls. It's basic stuff in football. Unless it's Fellaini's fault that he doesn't head it from here and runs to where the ball has gone and wins that ball too. Even if you assume this stuff is realistic who do we have who does this anyway? No one.
I have already answered your opinion question long back
Propa melt my brain debating in here. Heated!
I thought of this too and i see your point. But thats not completely true.
When it comes to possession, Mourinho's chelsea were one of the top 5 teams in away games. the same for his current united side. It seems his teams try to control games particularly away games. Its not fair to compare his real madird stats since smaller spanish teams always sit back against the bigger teams. but even in the English league the stats say that mourinho likes to have the ball and control the game, especially away from home.
Michael Carrick
You're kidding right? He isn't aerially dominant at all. He also doesn't have the agility anymore
In bold
always one of Fellaini's strengths. He's like a gymnast isn't he?I don't understand how football works.
So i'll take your approach and just quote websites. The last time Michael Carrick played with Fellaini (Leicester at home last season), Carrick won 100% of his "aerial duels". Fellaini 79%.
Also, Fellaini out passed everybody at watford, he must be our best passer too eh? Aerial dominant, never gives the ball away, ball winning super star. What a player eh?
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In bold
I dont understand how football works.
So i'll take your approach and just quote websites. The last time Michael Carrick played with Fellaini (Leicester at home last season), Carrick won 100% of his "aerial duels". Fellaini 79%.
Also, Fellaini out passed everybody at watford, he must be our best passer too eh? Aerial dominant, never gives the ball away, ball winning super star. What a player eh?
Lol That's true tbf.
Are you seriously saying Carrick is more aerially dominant than Fellaini? Ok
Of course I’m not. I am being sarcastic and proving sites like Sqwauka tell you very little, or atleast distort the truth.
Against Leicester last year Carrick won 100% aerial duels against Fellaini’s 78%. So your statistics show that in that game Carrick was more “aerial dominant”. That not my opinion that’s Squawka and in your world that’s rules. Live by the sword die by the sword. You can’t have it both ways.
My argument all along is that statistics provide absolutely no context whatsoever. You can’t gauge from stats how effective a player is.
Another distortion is that due to his height he’ll always be positioned in areas to defend a high ball. Or have a high ball aimed at him. So in direct comparison to a Herrera for example, his aerial stats influence on a game will always by higher, positive or negative.
Again, my argument is simple. We don’t need to sacrifice the technical ability of an Herrera or a Carrick for the height of Fellaini. In Bailly, Smalling, Pogba and Zlatan we have enough height.
So while for the sake of argument ill agree that against Watford Fellaini was exceptional in the air, what he gave us getting his head on the ball. He took away from us in his ability on the ball and the pace at which he distributes it. If, hypothetically he wasn’t in the team somebody else would have been assigned the duty to attack the ball in the air.
So as I previously mentioned, lets say that Fellaini gets an individual rating of 8 out of 10 every week, as a collective (it’s a team game remember) we are better without him. Clearly illustrated by the night and day performances when comparing Watford and Leicester.
That is quite a simple thing. So simple that even me, who doesn’t understand football can grasp. A footballing “Einstein” who picks numbers from the internet like your good self should be able to process it.
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Yet again, your missing the entire concept of context.
The meaning of that word is the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood.
It is something which statistcs are unable to measure, but it’s actually very important.
Fellaini won 11 of his aerial duels which at 67% means he lost 6.
How many of those 11 did where flick ones from a DDG goal kick? The type of flick on that as a defensive unit your happy to concede and focus on the second ball. How many of those 11 where in not threatening areas??
The flip side of that is how many of the 6 he lost where against players he was assigned to mark at set pieces in threatening areas??
The answer to my 3 questions in the previous two paragraphs is, the majority!!
When I said “he didn’t win a thing in the air”. It’s a figure of speech. The intended point of such a statement is a matter of importance. He didn’t win anything of real importance (apart from 1 header which he could have given a penalty away with his usual shirt pulling and elbowing).
Its like saying “Vardy didn’t get a kick on Saturday”. Factually / statistically that’s incorrect, he clearly did. What is meant is that he had no positive contribution.
But ignore me, I don’t understand football. Your best off forming your opinion by reading statistic websites.
The meaning of that word is the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood.
It is something which statistcs are unable to measure, but it’s actually very important.
Fellaini won 11 of his aerial duels which at 67% means he lost 6.
How many of those 11 did where flick ones from a DDG goal kick? The type of flick on that as a defensive unit your happy to concede and focus on the second ball. How many of those 11 where in not threatening areas??
The flip side of that is how many of the 6 he lost where against players he was assigned to mark at set pieces in threatening areas??
The answer to my 3 questions in the previous two paragraphs is, the majority!!
When I said “he didn’t win a thing in the air”. It’s a figure of speech. The intended point of such a statement is a matter of importance. He didn’t win anything of real importance (apart from 1 header which he could have given a penalty away with his usual shirt pulling and elbowing).
Its like saying “Vardy didn’t get a kick on Saturday”. Factually / statistically that’s incorrect, he clearly did. What is meant is that he had no positive contribution.
But ignore me, I don’t understand football. Your best off forming your opinion by reading statistic websites.
If you take most of the games, especially this season you will find that Fellaini has clearly been dominant in the air. Stats or not, that's a fact. Carrick may have a higher percentage but I'm not sure he would actually win 6 or 7 headers out of 10 on a regular basis.
Firstly you say as if Fellaini playing was the reason we lost against Watford and him not playing was the reason we won vs Leicester. We also were very dominant vs Southampton and Bournemouth and hull. And he was probably one of the best players in those games as well (even you agreed to this)
I mean it's like saying Herrera was good vs feyenoord but we lost whereas with Fellaini in the team we won 3 games so he is better. This is kind of the stupid crap you have been spouting for a long time.
Your other bullshit that almost all the headers which he won were from de gea's clearances and almost all headers he lost were in dangerous areas just prove how you actually don't watch any matches at all and are making stuff up to suit your argument. Unless you can prove otherwise (other means than 'I have seen it' because your actual viewing seems inadequate). If other teams prefer winning the second ball, clearly our forwards and other midfielders who you claim are superior could at least try to win them? Or is he supposed to not win them? Just so you know winning 70% of your headers is actually a good stat. He has won 24 aerial duels this season which also sounds like a lot.
Anyway this whole thing is boring as your posts are full of made up stuff which apparently is true because it just has to be.
If you think what you said in the 2 posts are the same, then I have nothing more to say. Good night and good luck.
First bold point.........No I am not saying that, I am saying we are better without out him. As was clearly seen against Leicester.
Second bold point....what on earth are you talking about??
The difference between me and you is I put forward an argument for my opinion. You use stats and stats alone. I have pointed out to you that's stats don't work.
I am not sure what your opinion actually is as you just seem to be obsessed with "aerial duel" stats. But if you could clarify it and argue it properly, I certainly wouldn't accuse you of lacking any under standing of football or accuse you of talking bull shit.
My opinion is simple......We don't need Fellaini winning headers!!!! We have enough height in the side to negate having to play him for that one reason. Herrera cover more ground, is far better on the ball, far more mobile, more tenacious. Just alround a superior footballer with much more a positive effect on the team as an individual and what he gives to others as a collective.
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Maybe you should just agree to disagree.
Fellaini and Rooney are good players, Fellini, especially, has played well this season. However, the ambiguous nature of their real position and playing style has a toxic effect on our starting 11.
Any team playing Fellaini as a holding cm will never win anything..
Schneiderlin and Herrera should be given a fair run.. Begining with Herrera.
Schneiderlin and Herrera should be given a fair run.. Begining with Herrera.
I concur. One of the most important positions on the field and a good one should dictate tempo. Its no coincidence that our tempo and speed at witch we transition from defence to attack was horrific against Watford, fantastic against Leicester (with only one change) and I suspect Herrera will be back on sunday and we'll look good again. Just the one change in the front 6.
One of the annoying things about his play, he do win a ball with the so called ariel ability and right at that instant, he will lose the ball because he's so slow to transit the ball from head/chest to feet. He then tries to compensate by fouling the player that won the ball from him. Herrera on the other hand wins the ball, and immediately put the ball in play before the opponent realize anything.
Well I think I have laboured the point above but I don't actually think he's great in the air. He gets his head on things, which you would expect for the size of him but the ball kind of hits his head, as opposed to him actually heading it, directing it and getting it away form danger. There was a great example of this early on last night. The ball came in from (our) right. Fellaini got his end on it but it was an half arsed header that dropped on the edge of the box........Zaltan got up powerfully and actually won the header and made the clearance.
Don't even get me started on the free kicks. Don't get me wrong, everybody gives a free kick away but every!!!! single game its 3/4 absolutely needless ones in Fellaini's case. SO much emphasis is put on set pieces that cames are won and lost with them. He gave them two chances last night which where totally needless.
How Carrick didn't start is beyond me.
Id be delighted to see him gone in January.
I have always been an advocate of keeping him around as an option. Despite him doing well in a few games its clear even him playing well in the side has a negative effect on our better players. SO having that option around just gives you temptation to use it and he's not one of these squad players that "will never let you down" on the contrary, I am always dreading / waiting / expecting him to do just that.
I agree. If he was going going to save Herrera for Sunday, then this was the perfect game for Michael. All the possession for him to makes passes to his hearts content. Fellaini is just a bully, who in most situations in the box is actually a wimp. He is a snide bully who would rather stick the elbow in on people. Michael has guile. Ander has energy and enthusiasm. Fellaini has neither.
I thought I was going mental and was the only person to see this on here. I hate it when he's considered some kind of "hardman", he's an absolute coward. 3 and abit seasons with us now and I am yet to see him put in a proper hard (but fair) tackle on somebody.
If we start him(Fellaini) against likes of Liverpool and Arsenal, we will lose both games.
Is Herrera injured or was he rested last night?
We will get humiliated. Ozil and Coutinho will run off Fellaini like he's a stationary object.
Mourinho used to say #6 was the most important part of any team, because it was the key role for transitioning between defence and attack. I'm shocked that he's picking Fellaini there, given Fellaini's obvious limitations as a player.
And by expressing the best disbelief at being called for it by the ref. His expressions have improved with time, no matter how stupid his fouls can get.
He was in training the other day, so presumably rested along with DDG, Blind and Valencia. My god we missed his energy.
He probably has to use some of these players to justify them being paid by Manchester United. I think a lot of them will be gone sooner than later.