Has political correctness actually gone mad?

SaintTresano said:
The or keyword implies that.
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Not necessarily. I have often been asked either/or questions and my answer has been neither. Being given two options is not the same as saying those are the only two options available.

Of course then we can get into the whole debate about gender traits and whether they are truly specific to a gender or social constructs of what characteristics a gender should be.

It's complicated and often confusing. Especially for those of us old enough to have been brought up with the idea that you are either male or female and that certain things apply to each gender. Luckily we as humans have the ability to learn and adapt.
 
JustAFan said:
Not necessarily. I have often been asked either/or questions and my answer has been neither. Being given two options is not the same as saying those are the only two options available.

Of course then we can get into the whole debate about gender traits and whether they are truly specific to a gender or social constructs of what characteristics a gender should be.

It's complicated and often confusing. Especially for those of us old enough to have been brought up with the idea that you are either male or female and that certain things apply to each gender. Luckily we as humans have the ability to learn and adapt.
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It's been mentioned in this thread, but I think a spectrum of masculinity/femininity would be apt.
 
For those who say this is a good thing; What about the term 'homo sapiens' then? Should we change all those too seeing as homo means man in latin?

Not trying to be funny or smart by the way, just curious what your stance on that is.
 
Vato said:
For those who say this is a good thing; What about the term 'homo sapiens' then? Should we change all those too seeing as homo means man in latin?

Not trying to be funny or smart by the way, just curious what your stance on that is.
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No.
 
Vato said:
For those who say this is a good thing; What about the term 'homo sapiens' then? Should we change all those too seeing as homo means man in latin?

Not trying to be funny or smart by the way, just curious what your stance on that is.
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For now at least most people are comfortable referring to things like man kind, since it refers to the entire species regardless of gender. In the future who knows.

I am sure someplace there are those who disagree.
 
JustAFan said:
For now at least most people are comfortable referring to things like man kind, since it refers to the entire species regardless of gender. In the future who knows.

I am sure someplace there are those who disagree.
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Damn straight, there is.

(Whoops, I said "straight", meaning correct. That's probably another can of worms)
 
though from time-to-time, well-meaning staff may still use the term 'ladies and gentlemen.

If this happens frequently, we will issue reminders to staff
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Title needs to be changed, it isn't even a question any more.
 
Cannot possibly believe somebody would be outraged/insulted by the 'welcome ladies and gentlemen'. Genuinely.

Sounds like a 'please, look at me' plea to me.
 
Kostur said:
Cannot possibly believe somebody would be outraged/insulted by the 'welcome ladies and gentlemen'. Genuinely.
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They aren't. The people who 'campaign' for this shit are just chronic attention seekers and eternal victims.
 
Greetings homogeneous clump, this is your insidious institutional dehumanisation speaking.

This change is likely to provide a net good and I think it's worth doing, but I am something of a cultural-progress skeptic and feel regret that the losses are rarely considered along the road to Utopia. Happy Holidays I personally dislike. Ladies and gentlemen had never been a particularly inclusive phrase to begin with. At least now the chavs, chavettes and genderqueer yobos will feel included.
 
I'm amazed that people are offended by the change. I'm more amazed that these people then think of the people who campaigned for the change as eternal victims, attention seekers.
Literally nothing has changed for the worse in anyone's life because of this change. Possibly it is a change for the better for some people.
And yet there is resentment.
 
Every time we do trans issues on this forum we start with jokes, then I turn up and tell people off for making jokes, then people debate with me, then people get bored of debating with me because I make them lose the will to live, then it devolves in to hypothetical nonsense and attempts to dismiss the issues without tackling them through accusations of attention seeking.
 
I don't much care what the tube announcements say.

If there is a tiny group that feels hurt by "Ladies and Gentleman" I'd prefer to ignore them. Not because I'm bigoted. I just believe that sometimes people need to grow a spine. Life is routinely hard. If you've got time to worry about the wording of a tube announcement, you've got it pretty good.

Ladies and Gentleman is an all inclusive phrase because is was created in good intentions. It covers everyone. Not all women are ladies, not all men are gentleman. They are not qualifiers of gender so much as conduct.

Traveling across town last weekend the Tube was full of rainbows and glitter as people travelled to Pride. An elderly couple got on. I gave up my seat for the Lady. The Man remained standing. I nudged the girl next to me to jump up and let him sit. She looked at me, then looked the opposite way.

It was a microcosm of the whole damn issue. She would have jumped off the tube and started chanting or singing about the oppression of any number of marginalized groups, yet couldn't get her bum off a seat to let a pensioner sit down.

Bottom line, we can make arguments for inclusivity all we like. But there are assholes on all sides of every issue.

For what it's worth "Hello everyone" doesn't bother me. I'd just have rather seen it rolled out without any announcement or fanfare or press release. It shouldn't be seen as a 'Win' by any group or movement. Because it's not.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
If you've got time to worry about the wording of a tube announcement, you've got it pretty good..
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Or you spend every day being rejected by a bigoted minority of society and it subsequently matters to you that our country's institutions are willing to make a minor change to show they are on your side.
 
berbatrick said:
I'll admit that I can't see it as a win. But I can imagine that some people do.
I'm curious how you know it isn't.
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Something like that shouldn't be heralded as a 'Win'. That suggests that there's a fight and that there are sides.

There is no movement pushing back.

One sub-set of humans gets annoyed at something and claims that it upsets them 'x' amount. That thing gets changed and they move on to something else.

That's not a win. There's no contest. The word would be achievement. Or progress. Or momentum. Or improvement.

Folks can say that they improved their awareness or standing or had their voice heard.

But drawing battle lines is only coming from one side. The 'oppressed' are all at once creating the oppression, railing against it, changing the world, then claiming they won something. It just such a low level of accomplishment.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
Or you spend every day being rejected by a bigoted minority of society and it subsequently matters to you that our country's institutions are willing to make a minor change to show they are on your side.
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There are no sides. Stop saying that.

The non 'normal' minority is already larger than the bigoted minority you speak of.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
It's impossible to speak globally.

I'm assuming we're on-topic. ie We are discussing London.

Where do you live? If it's London, do you truly believe that there is an anti anything movement?
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I'm in Brighton. We're as pro-LGBTQ+ as it gets here.

London is more progressive on trans rights than other parts of our country but that does not mean it doesn't have plenty of people who find trans people disgusting and more that find them ridiculous. Both are quite willing to share these views, despite this supposed PC gone mad culture that should mean they couldn't possibly without being ostracised.
 
Seriously, if you think it's more difficult to say 'I fecking hate trannies' than it is for a bloke to wear a dress, in London, you have no idea.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
I'm in Brighton. We're as pro-LGBTQ+ as it gets here.

London is more progressive on trans rights than other parts of our country but that does not mean it doesn't have plenty of people who find trans people disgusting and more that find them ridiculous. Both are quite willing to share these views, despite this supposed PC gone mad culture that should mean they couldn't possibly without being ostracised.
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I can't agree. I don't think that trans people are seen as any more disgusting or ridiculous than Chavs, Essex Girls or any other niche of society.

That's the end point. The race is done and all that's left is a leveling out of normal. That will take a huge amount of time.

I've recruited a trans person. CV had a male name. She arrived in a dress looking 'feminine with question marks'. I didn't give a damn. It was a database role. Qualified enough, sensible head on her shoulders. We had a healthy chat about the role. Before signing the contract we had an honest conversation about gender. I made it abundantly clear that I couldn't do guesswork. If she had a problem with something or someone, I'd solve it. But I needed to know. It was plain sailing. I had a great attitude, as did the company, as did she.

It can't get fixed everywhere at the same time. If you're a fringe member of society and want to be somewhere that it doesn't matter, you have to move. If you're complaining about lack of trans acceptance in a Northern English village, you either wait 50 years for the town to catch up. Or you move to a place that lets you live a full life. That's not a trans statement. That applies for any person that cannot be their best self in the place that they were born. Happens all the time.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
I can't agree. I don't think that trans people are seen as any more disgusting or ridiculous than Chavs, Essex Girls or any other niche of society.
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I didn't know that chavs and essex girls were being driven to suicide at astronomical rates.

That's the end point. The race is done and all that's left is a leveling out of normal. That will take a huge amount of time.
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That's what every generation says before being added to the cultural shame basket.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
I can't agree. I don't think that trans people are seen as any more disgusting or ridiculous than Chavs, Essex Girls or any other niche of society.
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Comparing us to two other vilified groups is not the best defence against the idea of significant negative attitudes.
 
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