http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16962898
One of my favourite towns. Just for info by the way, you're making some very good points.
Has political correctness actually gone mad?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16962898
One of my favourite towns. Just for info by the way, you're making some very good points.
It wasn't a defense. Do you understand and appreciate that it's impossible to go through life without being an outsider at some point?
If I go to a gym and start squatting 50kg there are seasoned lifters there having a giggle.
If an obese woman rocks up at a 5k and comes in dead last there will be some laughing and pointing.
There are literally endless examples of groups having pockets of arseholery that corrupt the whole.
Yes, it's hard to be someone that has an absolute core point of difference at the center of their being.
Acceptance for all across the board in every way, shape and form would be lovely. But it's just not happening. Ever.
There will always be a normal. That normal is defined by the majority. The issue is how the majority treats the minorities. Not how the minority-faction of the majority treats the minorities.
(Apologies for the last paragraph. It makes perfect sense but reads horrifically)
What are the causal factors of those suicides? It's such a complex issue. It can't be thrown in with this line of discussion. It's irresponsible.
Yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. You've just listed some examples of 'othering' as if they are comparable and are now trying to dismiss the impact of it. Going as far as to declare it 'irresponsible' to bring it up.
What's irresponsible is pretending that LGBT people are only treated with the same light-hearted derision at chavs or essex girls. I can't recall the daily mail targeting a chav or essex girl to the point of suicide. Or them being chastised by family members, or worse - attacked and murdered for being chavs and essex girls. And within living memory - by the government.
That's not what happened.
Nor is that an example of 'Othering'
I'll add my qualifiers to keep you on-topic.
1. We were discussing London, as per the article.
2. I stated that Trans people could only be said to be ridiculed to a level that Chavs or Essex girls can be. That's not just a vanilla line. I have heard acquaintances say "This place is full of Essex girls". It's not always nice. But it's also not wholly evil.
My other posts have expanded my thoughts.
But it truly is irresponsible to start discussing rates of suicide in a single throwaway statement. Suicide can't just be thrown in like that to try and 'win'. It's daft.
Rates of Societal Acceptance of trans people may or may not have a direct correlation to rates of suicide. I'd be happy to read a study that supports this. Maybe something that compares it to that of gay men or something closer to the issue. You can pick. I'll read.
Both of you replying to me know at heart that I was not comparing trans struggles to Essex girls.
The lens used was that of a Londoner. Most people I know would move away from a gobby chav talking on the phone. They wouldn't move away from a guy in a dress. We are so far past that. That doesn't mean that I believe the trans person leads an easier life.
That's not what I did. I've explained in the post above.
Sorry if that's how you took it, but that's not what happened.
Which is clearly absolute nonsense and even when faced with the suicide statistics that suggest this you declare them to be irrelevant to the point of irresponsibility because you're yet to see enough comparative studies - when your only evidence is your own personal views.
It's not nonsense.
Maybe I'm just fortunate to have cultivated a great social circle. When someone enters it, they don't have to 'Be' anything. Anything goes.
The same is true for my workplaces.
If you fail to see how rates of suicide are not part of the discussion we were having then I can't help you.
You seem to be allowing yourself to believe that I'm dismissing it as irrelevant. I'm not. Any suicide is horrifying. But it's not relevant to our discussion without statistics and context. That's not a horrible thing to say.
This is clearly a hot button issue for you. We probably need to leave it there. It feels that we're moving further apart rather than closer together.
There's a difference between being 'outraged' by something, and being usefully pro-active in a campaign for acknowledgement. I doubt many trans people are spitting feathers and tearing their hair out over the centuries old use of "Ladies and Gentlemen" on the tube....
Even if they were, how would you go about pushing for a change from the long-established norm, without being seeing as whiny and unreasonable in some quarters? Would you just keep asking nicely? Does anyone know that didn't happen?
Besides, surely the question shouldn't be who was offended by Ladies and Gentlemen? and rather who the hell his offended by Hello Everyone?
Even if they were, how would you go about pushing for a change from the long-established norm, without being seeing as whiny and unreasonable in some quarters? Would you just keep asking nicely? Does anyone know that didn't happen?
Besides, surely the question shouldn't be who was offended by Ladies and Gentlemen? and rather who the hell his offended by Hello Everyone?
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To be clear, you think 'chavs' and 'Essex girls' face discrimination that can be compared to trans people?
No. I do not. You've completely reframed what I said.
This was my original comment.
"I don't think that trans people are seen as any more disgusting or ridiculous than Chavs, Essex Girls or any other niche of society"
I'm sorry that you and Silva are whipping yourselves into a frenzy over it.
Do remember that your original words were 'Disgusting and ridiculous'. I merely used them comparatively.
I have qualified my comments every single time.
You're also routinely taking a single paragraph of my response and attacking it. Try to take the whole. The prior and previous text will always be relevant. I wrote them for a reason.
I clearly misunderstood. How exactly is it relevant that you think chavs and essex girls face the views you describe, if you don't think their discrimination is comparable to trans people?
I'm in no frenzy. I doubt Silva is. We don't sleep well, so we're liable to go for any debate going, this time of night, just to pass the time.
I do have a tendency to quote particular parts of people's posts and ignore the rest. Only when I fail to see the relevance of a point. If there's anything you feel I overlooked that deserved more attention, do repeat it.
Wait until left-handed people start demanding equal rights and nondiscrimination for their left-handedness.
Me dad's been contemplating that particular revolution for a while.
In the wider context, this is such a small matter - except to those people who often feel excluded - so why is this move being argued against? Is it really any hardship to consider the feelings of those who, for centuries, have suffered ridicule and much worse? Jesus...
I should whisper it, but because the moment the Mayor of fecking London is celebrating trans rights is a really significant thing for us.
It will invigorate people to go on to other things. Probably not banning parents from putting their offspring in blue or pink, mind.
This thread is merely an excuse for some to moan, like a bunch of RAWKites on seeing a selfie stick.
You said that people see trans people as Disgusting or ridiculous.
I do not believe that to be true. It could be described as accurate if the threshold for those terms is that we also describe Essex girls and Chavs using them. Which we do. They are.
But never in a truly aggressively derogatory manner.
If that slipped past you, ignore the whole lot. Skip to my comparison of moving away from a loud Chav on a train. That will happen routinely with the person walking away thinking 'fcuking chavs'. If a guy sits down in a dress, far fewer people move. Any that do would be closer to thinking 'that made me uncomfortable' rather than 'that's wrong/disgusting/whatever'.
My point has always been centered around the subject matter. The Tube announcements. In London, offensive is offensive. Different is not. We went off on a tangent but I truly believe that being trans in London is nothing like the social stigma that some pretend it is.
I spend a moderate amount of time in London. I spend most in Brighton. I feel though I can safely say Brighton is the more trans friendly and having gone out wearing a dress in Brighton, on many occasions, I find it extremely unlikely that the moments people thought I couldn't hear what they were saying compare at all to those experienced by walking around with a 'chavvy' appearance.
This was because many of those paragraphs were you wanking to how nice a guy you are.
"That blue cheese is fecking disgusting" "This terror attack is disgusting" "Picking your nose is disgusting". Does disgusting mean the same thing in all of these sentences?
You could try asking one, you don't even have to do it in person there are plenty of interviews online of people talking about it.
Not sure if serious, mate.
The old "it doesn't bother me, but I'm going to write six paragraphs about it anyway" is always a classic win. Slam dunk mate.
As seen in any thread about women's football.
I think you must live under a rock to think this?
It is such a self centered attitude. Not to mention arrogant. Presuming to know how language use affects people in different circumstances to yourself.
I've been racially (well presumed nationality) abused and told to feck off back where I came from. It was a bit upsetting/disconcerting but only in the sense that any mindless abuse and conflict would have been because I was an employed, middle class white bloke. I wasn't dis-empowered or reminded of persistent bias and discrimination so it wasn't the same thing as it would have been if I was part of a discriminated against minority. Obviously.
In the end it costs me nothing to try to be careful with language when someone tells me it hurts them not to do so.
Not at all. I don't believe it to be true as a blanket statement. Some demographics may believe it, obviously. But I truly don't think it's the case across the board.
Also note that my point was confined to London.
As an example, I'd say that disabled people in a wheelchair would have a harder time getting employed vs a trans person if all other factors were equal. (Again, there will be levels to that statement and it being true doesn't help either minority).
The problem with this argument is that disabled people are also having a hard time being accepted and getting integrated into society. They are also facing a lot of hurdles and various degrees of aggression. So even if that statement was true (could be, who knows), it wouldn't prove much about how accepting society is towards trans people.
In the end, it boils down to a version of 'you can't be poor, because others are poorer than you'.
For all the shit you're getting I do agree with some of this. No one is inherently right or wrong just because they belong to a group, not that anyone has said that, mind. However there does seem to be a simplified us vs them thing going on when in reality people are more complex.
Where does it end?You can't be serious. How on earth is your tiny social group a good barometer of anything like this? It's been proven over and over and over again that this is a divisive topic. If it's not that divisive among your friend group then that should be a pretty good indicator that they aren't a particularly representative sample of one of the most diverse cities in the world.
Your opinion is just your opinion, trying to suggest it's reflective of the city as a whole is ludicrous. I have just as much of a right to make a claim on the subject and I can say with some confidence that it's utter bollocks. If you think that you can put trans folk in the same bucket as Essex girls then you're simply ignorant. Feel free to embrace it but please don't apply that to Londoners on the whole.
That's a loaded phrase. "Being driven to". Implies the primary reason for taking their own lives is relentless persecution. The suicide stats are very sad but it's a lot more complex than people being hounded to death. Gender dysphoria can be a symptom of an underlying mental illness, which would predispose people to suicide anyway. I don't doubt that there are is a much higher proportion of unhappy people among the trans population but the reasons for this are many and varied.
Homo Offendus
I've always hated 'Ladies and Gentlemen' anyway. Sounds almost patronising in some weird way, plus the fact that a hell of a lot of one half of the phrase certainly aren't 'Gentlemen' these days!
"People from across the gender spectrum, please raise your glasses...."
That's how I'm going to handle it.
That's how I'm going to handle it.
The 'mens' part of the word refers to 'mensis', the Latin for 'month'. It simply means it's a monthly thing. If you want to be outraged, you need to know your classics first.
Etymology isn't as fun as inventing words to annoy those who care how the odd person refers to their period, though.The 'mens' part of the word refers to 'mensis', the Latin for 'month'. It simply means it's a monthly thing. If you want to be outraged, you need to know your classics first.
The 'mens' part of the word refers to 'mensis', the Latin for 'month'. It simply means it's a monthly thing. If you want to be outraged, you need to know your classics first.
I thought a mensis was a table. But my latin was a long time ago, and I was pretty crap at it tbh.