Hargreaves vs. Carrick, Feadingseagulls vs. Noodle, Chief (Bayern Fan!) vs. Logic

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Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Fair enough. But lets get one thing straight. Thing is I'm not just airing opinion. Hargreaves has a solid reputation. Built on what he did prior to coming to United. That isn't my opinion, it is proven fact. In comparison Carrick has done little in his career prior to coming to United. That is not just my opinion either. It's fact. It's fact that for a first season, Hargreaves is our first player since Ruud and Park to have a decent first season performance so far, after coming from a different culture and league. Most others have been rubbish in comparison. Vidic, Evra and Veron spring to mind. Another fact.

It's a fact Carrick has weaknesses in his defensive game. Plusa lack of physical drive. The Milan tie exposed these. It is why Hargreaves was bought. It is fact that you can't compare Hargreaves' first season to Carrick's simply because one crossed the Atlantic, from another culture, while the other, moved to Manchester from London, with in the same country..

It's a fact people keep berating Hargreaves on here, for not contributing to our attack like Carrick, when fact is he and Carrick are nothing a like as players. He will never ever contribute to our attack like Carrick. It isn't his role, nor his job.

Facts that I've merely been repeating fact. Anyone calling him shit or someone who cant play football are just airing opinions. Based on lies and personal hatred. For it's clearly not true. He would never have gone for a market fee of 18 million neither would he have lasted at Bayern as long as he did. That is a fact.

So please diffrentiate facts from my opinions. For my opinions on Hargreaves and Carrick have rarely been aired on these forums. I will never promote my opinions as fact. Cause they are merely my point of view on an issue. Mine and mine alone. Like my thinking Richardson has the talent of Giggs, for example.
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Are you fecking kidding?
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Those stats dont tell you the whole story. For example vs Lille we had a lot of the ball, but rarely got out of our on half. When we did, we hardly had clear cut chances. Just half ones. Our defence and Van de Sar especially kept us in that match a lot. We stole a goal but hang on desparately in the end
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is there a website that will show you where on the pitch most of the ball went to and was played from?

genuine question as it would be pretty compelling evidence
 
ralphie88 said:
Eric Djemba Djemba played centre-mid and steered Nantes to their first league title in feck knows how long..
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He dint' steer Nantes to anything. He was just a decent young prospect that often came off the bench

ralphie88 said:
Cantona on the other hand was rotting away with Auxerre, Sheff Weds and then was surplus to requirements in a struggling Leeds team.
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Cantona won the League for Leeds

ralphie88 said:
Gary Birtles was the outstanding striker in an oustanding Nottingham Forest team.
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ralphie88 said:
Whereas Ole Gunnar Solskjaer was playing for... feck me I probably couldn't even spell it.
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He was an exception to the rule

ralphie88 said:
Ralphie Milne was wonderous for Dundee United in the years when they used to get to Scottish Cup and UEFA Cup finals
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He arrived at United when he was past his best. Fergie said so himself

ralphie88 said:
But Lee Sharpe was messing around at Torquay United.
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Hist talent got him to United didn't it? He didn't have to pass via a Spurs

ralphie88 said:
Kleberson won the World Cup with Brazil
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Name what he did at club level that was special

ralphie88 said:
Fact is, Moose has been poor so far for United. Fingers' crossed when (if) his injuries clear up he'll find a bit of form. But until then, he should be a long way down the pecking order.
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It's not a fact he has been poor at all. That's just your opinion.
 
WesBrownIsAGod said:
Are Carrick's part in making Tottenham a proper team with Champions League ambitions?
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A proper team:lol: champions league ambitions? :eek:

They couldn't even hold on to 4th spot which they held for 2 thirds of the season, with him there, yet having only the league to concentrate on. Yet when he left they still got the same position the team had with him in it and did far better in all the cups they were in. He didnt achieve anything special with Spurs

WesBrownIsAGod said:
and being key to our winning the league, does that just mean nothing?
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Winning the league with United counts for nothing when comparing him to Hargreaves. It's Hargreaves' first year at United, remember that. The only valid basis for comparison is what they have done in the past. Prior to arriving at OT. Hands down, Hargreaves wins
 
Hargreaves is the best player ever in the history of football...

Sorry Evra
 
Chapster said:
is there a website that will show you where on the pitch most of the ball went to and was played from?

genuine question as it would be pretty compelling evidence
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I doubt such a wesbite exist to be honest. If it does I wouldn't know where to find it either. But match reports are not a bad reference in such a case
 
Hargreaves is a good man for games against the big clubs. He is not needed against the likes of Fulham.

Fact. So shut the feck up, all of you. :)
 
Lizard King said:
What Hargreaves did at Bayern means as much as what Carrick did at Spurs - it means feck all.

What they do at United is what counts as far as United is concerned.
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Never a truer word spoken.

But that's a problem for that Red Indian Chef bloke because Hargeaves has done nothing for United so far.
 
Sultan said:
I know!

I simply gave them comparisons to make you realise how ludicrous your comparison was with Carrick's past achievements. Hargreaves played for a top German league, it's no surprise he has a collection of medals.

Is David May better than Shearer?
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Come on Sultan, you're not seriously suggesting that Hargreaves was a David May type figure at Bayern. That is being very disingenius ....

Naughty!
 
ralphie88 said:
Never a truer word spoken.

But that's a problem for that Red Indian Chef bloke because Hargeaves has done nothing for United so far.
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People are far too quick to jump on his back, fact remains that it is early days in hargreaves united career. As far as this season goes no-one has done anything for United so far because no trophys = no success.

What is the point of getting on Hargreaves case when it is clear he like all the squad will have a part to play in any success United have this season.
 
ralphie88 said:
Whereas Ole Gunnary Solskjaer was playing for... feck me I probably couldn't even spell it.
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You can't spell Molde? :confused: Molde FK?

Anyway, I agree with you. Carrick had me convinced at this point last year, whereas Hargreaves has only had a few incidents where he's won the ball and looked the part that he's supposed to. A lot of the time he looks like he's started too late and quite a few times he wins the ball, looks decent, then plays himself into trouble, or someone else.

Hargreaves has something to prove. Let's hope the argument about the Champions League rings true, and that Hargreaves shows his class next week and throughout the latter stages.
 
What players had achieved at other clubs is of no significance to Manchester United.

What matters is the present.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Fair enough. But lets get one thing straight. Thing is I'm not just airing opinion. Hargreaves has a solid reputation. Built on what he did prior to coming to United. That isn't my opinion, it is proven fact. In comparison Carrick has done little in his career prior to coming to United. That is not just my opinion either. It's fact. It's fact that for a first season, Hargreaves is our first player since Ruud and Park to have a decent first season performance so far, after coming from a different culture and league. Most others have been rubbish in comparison. Vidic, Evra and Veron spring to mind. Another fact.

It's a fact Carrick has weaknesses in his defensive game. Plusa lack of physical drive. The Milan tie exposed these. It is why Hargreaves was bought. It is fact that you can't compare Hargreaves' first season to Carrick's simply because one crossed the Atlantic, from another culture, while the other, moved to Manchester from London, with in the same country..

It's a fact people keep berating Hargreaves on here, for not contributing to our attack like Carrick, when fact is he and Carrick are nothing a like as players. He will never ever contribute to our attack like Carrick. It isn't his role, nor his job.

Facts that I've merely been repeating fact. Anyone calling him shit or someone who cant play football are just airing opinions. Based on lies and personal hatred. For it's clearly not true. He would never have gone for a market fee of 18 million neither would he have lasted at Bayern as long as he did. That is a fact.

So please diffrentiate facts from my opinions. For my opinions on Hargreaves and Carrick have rarely been aired on these forums. I will never promote my opinions as fact. Cause they are merely my point of view on an issue. Mine and mine alone. Like my thinking Richardson has the talent of Giggs, for example.
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Forgive my geography, but surely a trip from Germany wouldn't involve the Atlantic?

Anyway, Hargreaves has dropped below Fletcher in the pecking order for me. I see nothing in the mop haired Canadian's locker that isn't in wee Darren's. This is starting to look like a poor transfer to me.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Which is a lie. He has done enough for United in his first season. That is what people like you find difficult to accept.
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This statement suggests that I would want Hargreaves to fail? Why would I want that? I had no problems with him for Bayern or England, I was excited at his movement on his debut at City (despite him being at fault for the goal), I want him to succeed for us.

I'm not saying he's not going to improve, I'm not saying we should sell him, I'm just saying he's been very disappointing this season and on current form he should be a long way down the pecking order (even lower than Fletch, and I know he's a better player than Fletch).

You're the one who's blinkered because you've backed yourself into a corner by defending Hargreaves from day one and now you feel that you have to fight tooth and nail to argue black is white to save face (pointless cos I don't know you from adam).
 
ralphie88 said:
This statement suggests that I would want Hargreaves to fail? Why would I want that? I had no problems with him for Bayern or England, I was excited at his movement on his debut at City (despite him being at fault for the goal), I want him to succeed for us.

I'm not saying he's not going to improve, I'm not saying we should sell him, I'm just saying he's been very disappointing this season and on current form he should be a long way down the pecking order (even lower than Fletch, and I know he's a better player than Fletch).

You're the one who's blinkered because you've backed yourself into a corner by defending Hargreaves from day one and now you feel that you have to fight tooth and nail to argue black is white to save face (pointless cos I don't know you from adam).
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You're absolutely wrong here. He hasn't backed himself into a corner. What corner has he backed himself into? He is saying Hargreaves hasn't been poor and has been as good as most of our other players this season. This is true. There is a group of people that suggest Hargreaves has been horrible and is personally responsible for all of our league defeats and all goals conceded when he was on the pitch. They aren't watching the same games as the rest of us clearly.

Here is a tasty little fact for you. This season Hargreaves has started for I believe 3 of our league defeats. I'll let you guess who was missing in each of these games and I'll give you a hint. It could be Rooney, Ronaldo or Tevez.

Coicidently, the fourth game we lost, we were also missing one of those three players.
 
Nucks: Hargreaves doesn't have to lose us games for us to be critical. I'm not the most vocal Hargreaves basher, but he has in NO WAY defended his price tag. And I somehow doubt he will, he just doesn't seem good enough to defend it.
 
Nucks said:
You're absolutely wrong here. He hasn't backed himself into a corner. What corner has he backed himself into? He is saying Hargreaves hasn't been poor and has been as good as most of our other players this season. This is true.
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No, he was defending Hargreaves when it really was too early to make a judgment on him. Now as Hargreaves has become more and more peripheral to United this season he still continues to blindly defend him, I contend because he doesn't want to lose face.

I do however, agree with the Chief on one key point - it's too early to write Hargreaves off, he may prove to be fantastic for us. I just think at the moment, he's not on the same level as Anderson and Carrick.

Players that I think almost matchgoers and caftards would argue have been better than Hargeaves this season:

VDS
Rio
Vidic
Evra
Anderson
Carrick
Ronaldo
Rooney
Tevez

Players who I think most matchgoers and caftards would say have been at least as good as Hargreaves this season:

Brown
Nani
Scholes
Fletcher :eek:
Simpson
 
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