1001 haha, what a bunch of shit, a 25 page thread slating one of United's players, he hasnt been great, but give him the benefit of the doubt for at least a season or two or at least a healthy run of games(if he can produce that I reckon he will do well)
Hargreaves vs. Carrick, Feadingseagulls vs. Noodle, Chief (Bayern Fan!) vs. Logic
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chief you watch alot of football but your opinion is not fact and your constant declaring people as liars... it smells a tad of wenger or moan
Admittedly I'm a doubter, but to be proven wrong will be a good thing as it means United will be stronger rather than weaker. So I look forward to your gloating thread as it can only mean good news for the team!
SAF >>>>> Chief
Our results when Hargreaves has started.
Beat Sunderland; 1-0 at home
Beat Spurs; 1-0 at home
Lost to City; 1-0 away
Beat 'Boro; 4-1 at home
Drew with Arsenal; 2-2 away
Beat Blackburn; 2-0 at home
Lost to Bolton; 1-0 away
Beat Fulham; 2-0 at home
Beat Liverpool; 1-0 away
Lost to West Ham; 2-1 away
Beat Reading; 2-0 away
Beat Spurs; 3-1 at home
Drew with Spurs; 1-1 away
Drew with Lyon; 1-1 away
8 wins
3 draws
3 defeats
I don't know what my point is, and I'm going to be late for work so I can't be arsed to explain why I wasted 15 minutes doing that.
Beat Sunderland; 1-0 at home
Beat Spurs; 1-0 at home
Lost to City; 1-0 away
Beat 'Boro; 4-1 at home
Drew with Arsenal; 2-2 away
Beat Blackburn; 2-0 at home
Lost to Bolton; 1-0 away
Beat Fulham; 2-0 at home
Beat Liverpool; 1-0 away
Lost to West Ham; 2-1 away
Beat Reading; 2-0 away
Beat Spurs; 3-1 at home
Drew with Spurs; 1-1 away
Drew with Lyon; 1-1 away
8 wins
3 draws
3 defeats
I don't know what my point is, and I'm going to be late for work so I can't be arsed to explain why I wasted 15 minutes doing that.
Simple Liz!
He's basically started in 3 of the 4 league defeats and was substitute in the other one.
and...
SAF also = human
SAF has signed Djemba, kleberson and miller
so he can miss sometimes.
LK you bring up some interesting facts
by my count in all competitive fixtures to date
we have
27 wins 7 draws and 4 losses
now the 3 losing games OH has started in bolton, city and westham at I wouldn't have expected us to lose any of those (maybe draw against city tho to be fair we should have drawn as tevez missed a sitter)
however to counter that we have good results against
lyon, pool and arsenal.
so I'll say we dropped 7 points in the games we lost but gained 5.5 points (lyon I've given 1.5 points as that's effectively what it is with the away goal)
to me that says to me whilst he has helped us get some good results, overall his impact in terms of improving the team has not been significant
Man, this thread has a life of its own.Trailing down a long and winding road with its twists and turns. Well, it was an intereresting read, lads (1,5h).
But I'm going to leave it without comments (apart from this one which has nothing to do with the subject) as I believe everything has been said, twice.
Feels like I have learned more about you guys, more than about Mr. Harry himself.
Keep up the good work and stay put with yer insistency of yer undisputable self-confidence, that YOU are right and that the others just dont know any better.
But I'm going to leave it without comments (apart from this one which has nothing to do with the subject) as I believe everything has been said, twice.
Feels like I have learned more about you guys, more than about Mr. Harry himself.
Keep up the good work and stay put with yer insistency of yer undisputable self-confidence, that YOU are right and that the others just dont know any better.
Chief seems to think that Hargreaves will improve in the future, but it's all relative. Carrick is of similar age, and he too will improve. All being well, Carrick will be a starter for a long while and Hargreaves will be somewhere on the periphery.
Nice one flawless. Love that 4-3-3 (or 4-3-2-1) formation. With the 3 free scoring muskateers up top.
Very solid yet vibrant team for European duty. Yes, can really see that working.
This should go into the classics.
A question Chief -
Have you seen Hargeaves play live for United? As in actually at the match?
I'm genuinely not trying to take the piss or anything, was just wondering, as everyone knows that you get a different experience watching live to watching on the telly.
Have you seen Hargeaves play live for United? As in actually at the match?
I'm genuinely not trying to take the piss or anything, was just wondering, as everyone knows that you get a different experience watching live to watching on the telly.
He's a decent full-back..Why don't we play him there?
*Cough* £18 million *cough*
Fair enough. But lets get one thing straight. Thing is I'm not just airing opinion. Hargreaves has a solid reputation. Built on what he did prior to coming to United. That isn't my opinion, it is proven fact. In comparison Carrick has done little in his career prior to coming to United. That is not just my opinion either. It's fact. It's fact that for a first season, Hargreaves is our first player since Ruud and Park to have a decent first season performance so far, after coming from a different culture and league. Most others have been rubbish in comparison. Vidic, Evra and Veron spring to mind. Another fact.
It's a fact Carrick has weaknesses in his defensive game. Plusa lack of physical drive. The Milan tie exposed these. It is why Hargreaves was bought. It is fact that you can't compare Hargreaves' first season to Carrick's simply because one crossed the Atlantic, from another culture, while the other, moved to Manchester from London, with in the same country..
It's a fact people keep berating Hargreaves on here, for not contributing to our attack like Carrick, when fact is he and Carrick are nothing a like as players. He will never ever contribute to our attack like Carrick. It isn't his role, nor his job.
Facts that I've merely been repeating fact. Anyone calling him shit or someone who cant play football are just airing opinions. Based on lies and personal hatred. For it's clearly not true. He would never have gone for a market fee of 18 million neither would he have lasted at Bayern as long as he did. That is a fact.
So please diffrentiate facts from my opinions. For my opinions on Hargreaves and Carrick have rarely been aired on these forums. I will never promote my opinions as fact. Cause they are merely my point of view on an issue. Mine and mine alone. Like my thinking Richardson has the talent of Giggs, for example.
Obviously not! I'm several ocean's away
I know your not trying to take the piss, sinec it's a fair question. But this thing of live is better than tv, is a myth people always promote. On telly/recorded you get angles you never can live and can repeat incidents in ways a live game will never allow you to. Else people like me who weren't born in the 50's up to the early 70's would never have witnessed how good players like Pele really were. Also, live you only see something once. Never again, to cross check if it's what you really saw. So honestly it's better not to bother about if you've watched a game live or not. What matters is watching it.
The only fan who gets it best however is he who gets to watch both. Live at the stadium, then recorded at their home.
Is this a fact?
Duh
Which part?
Anderson, Nani, Vidic, Evra, Ferdinand, Ronaldo and Rooney had achieved very little prior to coming to United.
Does that make these players inferior?
The same reason why we dont play Rooney in midfield just because he would be decent there. We have people who are excellent in the position already. So he either plays in his best position, which is mdfield or preferably not at all. Playing players out of position in the past has been our bane.
That's a lot of us...
You're now using silly comparisons.
1. Ferdinand was key to helping taking Leeds to a champions league semi. That isn't achieving little.
2. Evra was key in Monaco's run to a champiosn league final. That sin't little either.
3. Vidic was the main stay of his team's defence, wining some league titles at Red star, plus being key to his Russian side's defence. That's isn't little either
4. Ronaldo, Rooney arrived as kids. 2 years into their senior professional careers but establish themselves with in one season as first team regulars.
5. Anderson helped Porto win the league at 18. That is not little .
Carrick didn't arrive as a kid here. Neither did he do anything special for West Ham. He and Hargreaves are basically the same age too. So it's pretty fair to judge them on what they have achieved on a personal level till now. In their carreers. Prior to coming to OT.
Well I don't know where you live, or whether you attend games, so no 'obviously' about it.
But you do get a much better picture of how good a player is live (provided you have good spec of course) because you see the whole picture rather than just a slice of action the editor chooses to show. Hence the fact that scouts, managers and international managers actually travel to matches - would save them an awful lot of time if they got the same effect watching on TV.
On TV, for example, you don't get to see what the likes of Hargreaves or Carrick do off the ball over 90 mins, or where their starting positions are before they come 'in shot'. You wouldn't, for example, necessarily see a player being out of position initially and hence having to run and harry or challenge as a result of this - all you'd see is the endeavour at the end. With a player like Carrick, you rarely get to see the work rate or positioning off the ball - all you see is the ball being played into another area of the pitch, or the ball seemingly being played unnecessarily to Carrick.
I've watched around 20 games live this season, and the rest on TV. In addition, the live games I usually also watch the 60 mins highlights afterwards. And Hargreaves has not impressed in the way that Carrick has done for most of his time with us (and I'd accept he's had a couple of bad spells), or the way Anderson has.
That's not to say that Hargreaves isn't a good player, or won't make it at United - as you rightly point out, both Evra and Vidic were criticised when they joined (and rightly so, they were shocking for those first few months!). All I'm saying is that when it comes to performances this season for United Hargeaves hasn't been at the races (he played decent at City and Arsenal but in both games the general consensus is that he responsible for goals in both games by not tracking back and defending the back four (which was his role). I don't know ANYONE who watches United live who thinks otherwise. And it would also seem that most non-matchgoers are of the same opinion on here.
Carrick started against City and Bolton.
I know!
I simply gave them comparisons to make you realise how ludicrous your comparison was with Carrick's past achievements. Hargreaves played for a top German league, it's no surprise he has a collection of medals.
Is David May better than Shearer?
Highlights of both the Arsenal and City games. Shown from different angles, discussed by former players like Terry Paine and Gary Bailey, that I watched too have proved rather divergent from such a view. So were the views of people on MUtv.
Point 3 - Vidic was mediocre at best at Spartak. I watched him played CB in 2005 when they got butchered at home to FC Moscova - I actually picked him out to my translator as the Spartak weak link. Even Vidic himself has admitted he was shocking in Moscow and surprised he was signed by United on the back of it.
To be honest I wouldnt trust pravda if they told me the sky was blue.
No. You are just chosing to be stupid. Hargreaves was key to Bayern's truimphs in all those competitions. May was never key in any single triumph United had. Ever! So to compare his achivements to May's smacks of pure ignorance and utter stupidity.
You can't dare claim Carrick is superior to Hargreaves and ignore their entire carreers till now and what each has achieved. There is no other valid basis for comparison between the two. It's fact that Hargreaves' talent got him signed by a big side as a youngster, into a baptism of fire where he flourished. Not luck. While Carrick's never got him into a big side till he was mature.
Thanks for the correction. The other part still is valid though
Are Carrick's part in making Tottenham a proper team with Champions League ambitions, and being key to our winning the league, does that just mean nothing?
Eric Djemba Djemba played centre-mid and steered Nantes to their first league title in feck knows how long.
Cantona on the other hand was rotting away with Auxerre, Sheff Weds and then was surplus to requirements in a struggling Leeds team.
Gary Birtles was the outstanding striker in an oustanding Nottingham Forest team.
Whereas Ole Gunnary Solskjaer was playing for... feck me I probably couldn't even spell it.
Ralphie Milne was wonderous for Dundee United in the years when they used to get to Scottish Cup and UEFA Cup finals
But Lee Sharpe was messing around at Torquay United.
Kleberson won the World Cup with Brazil.... the list goes on.
Fact is, Moose has been poor so far for United. Fingers' crossed when (if) his injuries clear up he'll find a bit of form. But until then, he should be a long way down the pecking order.
That is not a fact. It is complete tripe.
Since Ruud in 2001, here are the players to come from other leagues and cultures in order, and how they did in their first seasons:
Juan Sebastian Veron - underperformed in both his first season, and his second
Laurent Blanc - was approximately 93 so it makes feck all difference.
Diego Forlan - very dodgy first season, and definitely got better after that
Ricardo - was generally not very good
Eric Djemba-Djemba - crap first season, but that's because he was crap
Tim Howard - superb first season, not so great after that
Kleberson - disappointing first season, never really got going
Cristiano Ronaldo - excellent first season, burst into the team before he was expected to, and scared defenders, not yet polished with his end product but a great start for such a young player
Gabriel Heinze - superb first season, limitations became more apparent later
Park Ji-Sung - decent first season, nowt special but always contributed, as now
Nemanja Vidic - alright first season - most United fans didn't think he started as badly as some parts of the media reported. Has definitely come on since though.
Patrice Evra - dreadful first season, has improved immeasurably since and ias now the best player in the history of the world (TM)
So that's at least Howard, Ronaldo Heinze and Park who all settled in well in their first seasons. I'd say Vidic was pretty good too. Most of the others were just not very good (or too old) - the exceptions being Evra, and maybe Forlan and Veron if you're generous.
Those stats dont tell you the whole story. For example vs Lille we had a lot of the ball, but rarely got out of our on half. When we did, we hardly had clear cut chances. Just half ones. Our defence and Van de Sar especially kept us in that match a lot. We stole a goal but hang on desparately in the end
Just like medals don't tell the whole story.
What clear cut chances did we have against Lyon then?
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