Gun control

I grew up in Nigeria. Compared to most advanced countries, one would call it fairly lawless but I swear you would be hard pressed to find a gun. I am more concerned about the safety of my sisters in the US than I am of my parents in Nigeria. This is madness.
You can't even have an argument with a motorist without thinking at the back of your mind that this person could have a gun.
 
Ignoring the nonsensical laws that are causing all these gun related problems, why are Americans so comfortable using these guns in the first place? I mean it's one thing to own a bunch of guns as a way to show off machismo, it's another thing to actually use it to potentially murder someone. What's up with the blatant disregard for human life?
 
van der star said:
Ignoring the nonsensical laws that are causing all these gun related problems, why are Americans so comfortable using these guns in the first place? I mean it's one thing to own a bunch of guns as a way to show off machismo, it's another thing to actually use it to potentially murder someone. What's up with the blatant disregard for human life?
Click to expand...
It's a country whose leaders, business people, and opinion-shapers have long stressed winning...at virtually any cost. This self-obsessed and merciless culture has bled into everything from sport to household arguments about tv remote controls.
 
SteveJ said:
It's a country whose leaders, business people, and opinion-shapers have long stressed winning...at virtually any cost. This culture has bled into everything from sport to simple arguments about tv remote controls.
Click to expand...
At the same time, studies have shown a higher prevalence of guns in religious households. Surely the more religious you are, the more you'll believe in the sanctity of life. I mean, these are probably the same people that stand outside abortion clinics harassing anyone going in. I can't wrap my head around the sheer hypocrisy, and the fact that it's managed to go on for so long without repurcussions is deeply disturbing.
 
van der star said:
At the same time, studies have shown a higher prevalence of guns in religious households. Surely the more religious you are, the more you'll believe in the sanctity of life. I mean, these are probably the same people that stand outside abortion clinics harassing anyone going in. I can't wrap my head around the sheer hypocrisy, and the fact that it's managed to go on for so long without repurcussions is deeply disturbing.
Click to expand...

Yup. The exact same people who fight to preserve the death penalty and even call for mothers who have abortions to be charged with murder and receive the death penalty.

The hypocrisy knows no bounds.
 
For many people, their faith is merely a reflection of their self-righteousness. It's no coincidence that 'God' just happens to agree with their preordained opinions.
 
Billy Blaggs said:
Does he though? Have you read the ten comandments
Click to expand...
This is what I meant, chief: these people only use religion to appear morally superior to others. And scripture gets bent out of shape to coincide with their own prejudices.
 
van der star said:
Ignoring the nonsensical laws that are causing all these gun related problems, why are Americans so comfortable using these guns in the first place? I mean it's one thing to own a bunch of guns as a way to show off machismo, it's another thing to actually use it to potentially murder someone. What's up with the blatant disregard for human life?
Click to expand...

Which specific laws do you believe are "causing all these gun related problems".

van der star said:
why are Americans so comfortable using these guns in the first place?
Click to expand...

I don't think you quite understand of the history of minorities in America and why probably 70-80% of the black and latinos I know support gun ownership.

When a minority cannot count on police to protect them how can you tell them (from Europe no less) that they don't have the right to protect their homes?

Sorry but I really don't think most of you Europeans understand the historical and cultural conditions at all if you actually think its just a few laws that can be changed to fix anything.

By far the most important law that needs to be changed ASAP is the private seller loophole and enforcing universal background checks on every private gun sale including gun shows. I 100% support this law being changed yesterday. (additionally the entire Citizens United lobbying laws need to be removed otherwise this wont happen).

But I am not naive enough to believe that changing that law will have any immediate effect. It will change nothing for now. It will take massive restructuring of LEO to enforce that law and I believe it would take at least 10-12 years before America started to see ANY benefit from that law.

The other thing to keep in mind that geographically small island nations like UK, Japan or even Australia are FAR easier to monitor and physically control for something like guns than a place as big and with huge land borders like the US.
 
Last edited:
oneniltothearsenal said:
Which specific laws do you believe are "causing all these gun related problems".



I don't think you quite understand of the history of minorities in America and why probably 70-80% of the black and latinos I know support gun ownership.

When a minority cannot count on police to protect them how can you tell them (from Europe no less) that they don't have the right to protect their homes?

Sorry but I really don't think most of you Europeans understand the historical and cultural conditions at all if you actually think its just a few laws that can be changed to fix anything.
Click to expand...
So being a minority makes you feel safe by owning guns?
 
I don't think anyone thinks changing a few laws will magically change anything, but it would help prevent mass shootings which is what the majority of this thread has been about.

Tackling the mentality of gun ownership and changing cultures, preventing crime and gang related violence and removing fear are a myriad of completely different problems altogether. However, the current gun laws do not help any single one of those issues, only make them exponentially worse.
 
Billy Blaggs said:
So being a minority makes you feel safe by owning guns?
Click to expand...

Minorities or even just poor people that cannot count on police protection (you should compare 911 response times in rich neighborhoods to poor ones) you are going to have muster a much more compelling argument to get them to support gun control than the condescension and hands in the air "woe is America omg wtf" that usually comes from the Europeans online.

I've lived in places where average 911 response was 10-12 minutes. Good luck trying to convince minorities to support gun control laws when their communities are inundated with Eboue anti-cop attitudes:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/cop-in-america-doing-a-bad-job-again.420394/page-100

Pro tip: If you want to live somewhere without a gun culture move to Hawaii. Hawaiian culture views guns as being wimpy and weak sauce. Real men fight with fists.

Unless mainland America changes culture, switching a few laws is not going to change anything.
 
langster said:
I don't think anyone thinks changing a few laws will magically change anything, but it would help prevent mass shootings which is what the majority of this thread has been about.

Tackling the mentality of gun ownership and changing cultures, preventing crime and gang related violence and removing fear are a myriad of completely different problems altogether. However, the current gun laws do not help any single one of those issues, only make them exponentially worse.
Click to expand...


I'm with you. Gun mentality is worse than gun ownership.
The amount of times I've heard "of he shows his face here I'll kill him. Murder him with no remorse!"

Its like the guns are their fists.

About two moths ago there was a shootout. He pulled a gun then he pulled a gun.
None got hit apart from the aunts room.

Yet...here's the kicker. He stood up for me! Noone comes here because we have guns.

Bitch he almost shot you by mistake!!!
 
Last edited:
oneniltothearsenal said:
Minorities or even just poor people that cannot count on police protection (you should compare 911 response times in rich neighborhoods to poor ones) you are going to have muster a much more compelling argument to get them to support gun control than the condescension that usually comes from the Europeans online.

I've lived in places where average 911 response was 10-12 minutes. Good luck trying to convince minorities to support gun control laws when their communities are inundated with Eboue anti-cop attitudes:
Click to expand...
So you must shoot each other. Sounds about right
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Minorities or even just poor people that cannot count on police protection (you should compare 911 response times in rich neighborhoods to poor ones) you are going to have muster a much more compelling argument to get them to support gun control than the condescension that usually comes from the Europeans online.

I've lived in places where average 911 response was 10-12 minutes. Good luck trying to convince minorities to support gun control laws when their communities are inundated with Eboue anti-cop attitudes:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/cop-in-america-doing-a-bad-job-again.420394/page-100

Pro tip: If you want to live somewhere without a gun culture move to Hawaii. Hawaiian culture views guns as being wimp and weak sauce. real men fight with fists.

Unless mainland America changes culture, switching a few laws is not going to change anything.
Click to expand...
It's not minorities. It's the uneducated poor.
Lose an argument feck him up. Lose a fight shoot him.

It has nothing to do with cops or government.
 
Answer this truthfully. (I'm no lover of cops)

How many of your gun toting friends have shot someone?

Now how many have shot a cop?

How many have shot someone because of the second amendment because they had to because they are poor?
 
Billy Blaggs said:
So you must shoot each other. Sounds about right
Click to expand...

Billy Blaggs said:
It's not minorities. It's the uneducated poor.
Lose an argument feck him up. Lose a fight shoot him.

It has nothing to do with cops or government.
Click to expand...

I'm not really sure what your point is here but let's just tackle one simple issue:

What argument are you (or the others here like @langster) going to make to minorities that live in poor areas with 7-12 police response times to convince them to support whatever gun control law?

(lets say universal background checks and eliminating private seller loophole since that is one law I support 100% and think could be passed within 10 years if the damn Dems learn how to fecking do marketing and PR instead of just poll humping)

What is the Billy Blaggs argument that I can take with me to Oakland and Long Beach when poor minorities tell me "police don't give a shit about me so who are you to tell me I cant have a gun to protect my home"?
 
The fact of the matter is that almost every other country in the world has poor people that don't get emergency services as fast as the rich. Yet they don't need guns.
Yet Americans do. Maybe because when you get shot you can stuff the barrel into the gun wound and stop the bleeding from the gun that shot you.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
I'm not really sure what your point is here but let's just tackle one simple issue:

What argument are you (or the others here like @langster) going to make to minorities that live in poor areas with 10-12 police response times to convince them to support whatever gun control law?

(lets say universal background checks and eliminating private seller loophole since that is one law I support 100% and think could be passed within 10 years if the damn Dems learn how to fecking do marketing and PR instead of just poll humping)

What is the Billy Blaggs argument that I can take with me to Oakland and Long Beach when poor minorities tell me "police don't give a shit about me so who are you to tell me I cant have a gun to protect my home"?
Click to expand...
If no one had guns you wouldn't have to.
Look out past the great state of California past the great nation of the red white and blue and see that people don't need to be armed because people aren't armed
 
I don't think some of you really grok the situation. I have made the same arguments you lot have made for 20 YEARS. And I haven't changed a single person's mind that supported guns - and that includes a TON of liberal and minority gun owners.

So if you guys think you are some compelling arguments let me hear them and see if you lot can come up with something more convincing than I've tried over 20 YEARS.

Because otherwise I've given up on the gun issue. You have to pick your battles and trying to convince progressive and minority gun owners to support gun control has been a profound waste of my time over 2 decades.

This data is far more compelling for many minorities and liberals than the posts in this thread:

police-response-chart.jpg


Billy Blaggs said:
Have you ever lived anywhere else that doesn't have a gun culture? I'm serious here. Genuine question.
Click to expand...

Hawaii briefly.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Minorities or even just poor people that cannot count on police protection (you should compare 911 response times in rich neighborhoods to poor ones) you are going to have muster a much more compelling argument to get them to support gun control than the condescension and hands in the air "woe is America omg wtf" that usually comes from the Europeans online.

I've lived in places where average 911 response was 10-12 minutes[/B]. Good luck trying to convince minorities to support gun control laws when their communities are inundated with Eboue anti-cop attitudes:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/cop-in-america-doing-a-bad-job-again.420394/page-100

Pro tip: If you want to live somewhere without a gun culture move to Hawaii. Hawaiian culture views guns as being wimpy and weak sauce. Real men fight with fists.

Unless mainland America changes culture, switching a few laws is not going to change anything.
Click to expand...
That's fecked up. But fire with fire just makes more fire.
I sound like a white dickhead
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
I don't think some of you really grok the situation. I have made the same arguments you lot have made for 20 YEARS. And I haven't changed a single person's mind that supported guns - and that includes a TON of liberal and minority gun owners.

So if you guys think you are some compelling arguments let me hear them and see if you lot can come up with something more convincing than I've tried over 20 YEARS.

Because otherwise I've given up on the gun issue. You have to pick your battles and trying to convince progressive and minority gun owners to support gun control has been a profound waste of my time over 2 decades.



Hawaii briefly.
Click to expand...

There was a little girl that went to an embassy on her own when her teachers told her not to.

Sometimes the butterfly makes the pool ripple
 
Billy Blaggs said:
There was a little girl that went to an embassy on her own when her teachers told her not to.

Sometimes the butterfly makes the pool ripple
Click to expand...

Sorry Billy, I'm too busy for the Zen Koans today ;) you'll have to more blunt with me today hahah
 
Because otherwise I've given up on the gun issue. You have to pick your battles and trying to convince progressive and minority gun owners to support gun control has been a profound waste of my time over 2 decades.

What if you saved a kids life? It's possible. He might have pulled a gun but thought about you and didn't.
Would that be a waste?

The gun shit is we must stop it all now!
What if we stopped out one kid at a time?

It could be my son that doesn't get shot or that isn't such a pussy that needs to carry a gun.

He comes home and gets up to eat breakfast. Is that a waste of your time?
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Sorry Billy, I'm too busy for the Zen Koans today ;) you'll have to more blunt with me today hahah
Click to expand...

I've never been black or anything apart from white. I can't think about what you lot (culture and skin) go through. It sickens me. There's nothing I can say to heal that void. (I'm apologing for being white lol)

Know this. I'm a cnut to white people too :lol:

I've belived this since I saw some nasty shot when I was young. You can't tell if you're black or white or whatever when your guts are laid out next to your body.
 
Billy Blaggs said:
Because otherwise I've given up on the gun issue. You have to pick your battles and trying to convince progressive and minority gun owners to support gun control has been a profound waste of my time over 2 decades.

What if you saved a kids life? It's possible. He might have pulled a gun but thought about you and didn't.
Would that be a waste?

The gun shit is we must stop it all now!
What if we stopped out one kid at a time?

It could be my son that doesn't get shot or that isn't such a pussy that needs to carry a gun.

He comes home and gets up to eat breakfast. Is that a waste of your time?
Click to expand...

I think the issue is much more nuanced and so is the solution than the typical European response to mass shootings of "America fecked" etc.

The problem isn't a "gun culture" per se but I see at least four major cultural aspects (probably many more minor aspects) that have to be reckoned with if people actually care about change and don't just want to lecture and moralize and condescend on the internet (you didn't do this but others do alot in mass shooting threads)

1. Cultures of Honor - relevant to the American South, Appalachia and inner cities. This aspect absolutely incentivizes violence
http://honorshame.com/12-proven-facts-about-honor-cultures/

2. Frontier Culture - something else Europeans don't intuitively understand (but Chinese do) because Europe hasn't a frontier in a thousand years whereas American history the frontier is important to understand the ingrained cultural belief that guns are useful tools not solely killing devices.
1893: https://www.historians.org/about-ah...nificance-of-the-frontier-in-american-history
1952: https://www.americanheritage.com/how-frontier-shaped-american-character
2018: https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/americas-gun-culture-3877087-Mar2018/

3. Americans experience with war is all Foreign Wars - no cultural war fatigue as in Europe.
The last war fought on American soil was the US Civil War and all the military adventures of the US in the 20th century were on foreign soil. This has MASSIVE psycho-historical affects. After WWI and WWII Europe (and elsewhere) had huge amount of the proven psychological effect of war/battle fatigue. I've seen a lot of papers on this in the past. The US culture after WWII was completely different than the rebuilding in Japan and Europe. Europe after WWII had a completely different set of takeaways than the USA after WWII.

4. History of racist governments using police and the Law Enforcement to suppress minority communities. From Jim Crow laws to Black Lives Matter. I posted the police response times and they are usually slower to respond in poor communities. So you'd have to overcome this very rational hurdle of "the police can't protect me, I'm not sure if they even want to, how can I protect myself". It might be a sad commentary on reality but its also a hurdle.

Looking at cultural history, if I was to just use game theory and strategic analysis, the best strategy to actually achieve gun control really is: Arm the minorities.

Not even being snarky here but I truthfully don't see anything else working but:
the-nra-supported-gun-control-when-the-black-panthers-had-the-weaponss-featured-photo.jpg
 
Last edited:
RedPed said:
One thing I have learned from this thread is that Americans are deluded, brainwashed and very backward thinking and on this subject in particular can never be reasoned with
Click to expand...

I had an incident like this a couple years back. When I went on a tour of the grand canyon, the helicopter tour guide was an american guy. We talked quite a lot, and he was a really good guy overall. Smart, seemed level headed etc. And then the topic happened to drift to guns, and it was like the person I was speaking to before completely vanished. The most memorable line from what we spoke of is that he said "If the government wants to take his guns, they're going to have to come to his house and pry them from his hands, and he isn't going down without a fight." It's the crazy the dichotomy that exists in seemingly normal american people when it comes to the topic of guns.
 
Billy Blaggs said:
I'm against religion for a reason. I don't want to hurt little kids. Don't want to hurt women.

feck religious people

Maybe too deep but that's my view
Click to expand...

Not all religious people are bad. On the other hand, most of the worst people I know, both personally and on a global scale, tend to be religious people. Finding a pretext for your tyranny and all that I suppose.
 
Cloud7 said:
I had an incident like this a couple years back. When I went on a tour of the grand canyon, the helicopter tour guide was an american guy. We talked quite a lot, and he was a really good guy overall. Smart, seemed level headed etc. And then the topic happened to drift to guns, and it was like the person I was speaking to before completely vanished. The most memorable line from what we spoke of is that he said "If the government wants to take his guns, they're going to have to come to his house and pry them from his hands, and he isn't going down without a fight." It's the crazy the dichotomy that exists in seemingly normal american people when it comes to the topic of guns.
Click to expand...

Its not crazy though is the thing. It is a rational result of a completely different set of socio-historical influences (culture of honor, frontier culture, lack of war fatigue and distrust of law enforcement for both legitimate and imaginary reasons).
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Its not crazy though is the thing. It is a rational result of a completely different set of socio-historical influences (culture of honor, frontier culture, lack of war fatigue and distrust of law enforcement for both legitimate and imaginary reasons).
Click to expand...

Socio-historical influences aren't supposed to override fecking logic when said logic is slapping you in the face everyday in the form of innocent people being gunned down in mass shootings. Also going by your previous posts, he was a run of the mill middle class white guy so your minorities/poor people explanation doesn't fly here.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.