Grenfell Tower Fire | 14th June 2017

And :lol: :lol: :lol: at the ''residents not liking disruption'' argument - he can go right up the list for needing to feck off.

you don't get a choice, they're always disrupting with their latest shite ideas & schemes followed by the lies about it'

I don't feel the class war politics of it for this one really, if they wanted to de-house people for profit, they'd just be doing it.

Exclusion in just being trampled on - plenty of that in attitudes & the way they work, however.
 
GlennST said:
Someone help me understand the numbers here.

Media are reporting 17 dead and 20 missing, however many media outlets are also reporting that the death toll could exceed 100 / 150.

If we only have c.20 missing at this stage, 3 days later, how are we deducing that there could still be so many more dead ?
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reverse maths starting from an estimated figure of how many people were in the building - how many we think got out = number of survivors seems low
 
GlennST said:
Someone help me understand the numbers here.

Media are reporting 17 dead and 20 missing, however many media outlets are also reporting that the death toll could exceed 100 / 150.

If we only have c.20 missing at this stage, 3 days later, how are we deducing that there could still be so many more dead ?
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It's a grim thought but a lot of the dead will be almost charcoal, so it could take weeks to find/identify them. The missing numbers are probably also an under-estimate because when socially isolated individuals die in a fire like this - or whole families get wiped out - then there's nobody to report them missing.
 
montpelier said:
reverse maths starting from an estimated figure of how many people were in the building - how many we think got out = number of survivors seems low
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I presumed that but struggle to accept it.

So we have c.100 people potentially missing / dead, that have no family looking for them or appealing to the media ?

Find that hard to believe.

Think I'm just trying to persuade myself that this can't get much worse.
 
montpelier said:
how do you get around the sprinklers getting set off all the time problem?

when you have sprinklers
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I think most modern ones are triggered by heat rather than smoke, so someone burning their dinner isn't enough to set the sprinklers off.

I could have pulled that out of my arse though but I think it's right.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It's a grim thought but a lot of the dead will be almost charcoal, so it could take weeks to find/identify them. The missing numbers are probably also an under-estimate because when socially isolated individuals die in a fire like this - or whole families get wiped out - then there's nobody to report them missing.
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Ah, you make a fair point.

I was basing my queries purely on the lack of missing people reports, especially in a social media world.

I suppose with such a multi-cultural residency there are maybe less / no family here to raise the alarms.

Breaks my heart this.
 
Snowjoe said:
I think most modern ones are triggered by heat rather than smoke, so someone burning their dinner isn't enough to set the sprinklers off.

I could have pulled that out of my arse though but I think it's right.
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That's right. Made a fire training video for a new old folks home last year and that's what the people who installed it there said.

There's probably different systems, but they don't go off at moderately high heat, it pretty much takes a fire.
 
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montpelier said:
And :lol: :lol: :lol: at the ''residents not liking disruption'' argument - he can go right up the list for needing to feck off.
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From on reading one of the residents action blogs, they were accusing the landlords of using proxy votes to vote down anything the resident group pushed forward. Not sure if this was the case for Sprinklers... but could be where he got the idea of residents didn't want it.

It's believable. Living in a private apartment block, we had same issue with the buildings managing agents doing the same thing.
 
Snowjoe said:
I think most modern ones are triggered by heat rather than smoke, so someone burning their dinner isn't enough to set the sprinklers off.

I could have pulled that out of my arse though but I think it's right.
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ah yes, sounds like a possibility & heading to being a good idea too, if you're right

they would hate the competent maintenance requirements & record keeping though

let's just tell people to stay put is a lot easier, :(
 
Hal9000 said:
From on reading one of the residents action blogs, they were accusing the landlords of using proxy votes to vote down anything the resident group pushed forward. Not sure if this was the case for Sprinklers... but could be where he got the idea of residents didn't want it.

It's believable. Living in a private apartment block, we had same issue with the buildings managing agents doing the same thing.
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Proxy votes, :eek:. Oh, ffs.
 
GlennST said:
I presumed that but struggle to accept it.

So we have c.100 people potentially missing / dead, that have no family looking for them or appealing to the media ?

Find that hard to believe.

Think I'm just trying to persuade myself that this can't get much worse.
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True there's still too much that is vague for now. Maybe some or many were immigrants whose closest family are not in the UK. The simple logic should prepare us for worse or much worse, I'm afraid. In the end the numbers will probably be done by counting skeletal remains and then identification by DNA analysis.

I don't know what the protocols are for emergency situations but they must be very heavy. It took the authorities 5 days to confirm the death of the Spanish guy killed in Borough Market - and they had the family there to identify him, DNA if needed, dental records - and the guy had been stabbed in the chest.
 
Snowjoe said:
I think most modern ones are triggered by heat rather than smoke, so someone burning their dinner isn't enough to set the sprinklers off.

I could have pulled that out of my arse though but I think it's right.
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Sprinkler heads are activated by heat. You have different heads for different environments. For example, a sprinkler head in a factory with a heat furnace will have a higher activation temperature than one in an office block.
 
montpelier said:
Proxy votes, :eek:. Oh, ffs.
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Here is the blog, that accuse the landlords of using proxy votes.

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

The first line. "It is a truly terrifying thought but the Grenfell Action Group firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the KCTMO, and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders."
 
montpelier said:
ah yes, sounds like a possibility & heading to being a good idea too, if you're right

they would hate the competent maintenance requirements & record keeping though

let's just tell people to stay put is a lot easier, :(
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It's the sprinkler pumps that need most work. The engines that drive the pumps need testing every 2 weeks in case of a certified sprinkler installation. The heads themselves don't need much maintenance. In case of a certified installation the whole installation is inspected yearly in order to maintain the certification.
 
Penna said:
I see the Queen (age 91) has managed to do what Mrs May couldn't do, and has met local residents in one of the relief centres.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40298473
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I can't help feeling that May is incapable of that kind of closeness. Her body language is horrendous and gives the impression she's a socially frigid person. Also, and I'm probably being too cynical here, the photo of her surrounded by firefighters suggests to me this a better way than using the police of keeping protesters at bay ? Maybe she lacks the courage to face up to those affected also.
 
Rams said:
It's the sprinkler pumps that need most work. The engines that drive the pumps need testing every 2 weeks in case of a certified sprinkler installation. The heads themselves don't need much maintenance. In case of a certified installation the whole installation is inspected yearly in order to maintain the certification.
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No chance they would want to do that. Or achieve competency levels to be able to do it. Or the expense of any aspect of it.
 
montpelier said:
No chance they would want to do that. Or achieve competency levels to be able to do it. Or the expense of any aspect of it.
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As I said before, the sprinkler isn't so much the issue here. The combustible cladding used in the facade is the issue here.
 
Forget sprinklers though, how is there not a fire alarm system that lets you know when half the building is burning and you have to be warned by neighbours banging on your door.
 
Ixion said:
Forget sprinklers though, how is there not a fire alarm system that lets you know when half the building is burning and you have to be warned by neighbours banging on your door.
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I don't understand that either. I thought smoke detection is obligatory in such type of buildings in the UK, but maybe I'm mistaken. However, I doubt the alarm would have made much difference. It would only have given the residents an slightly earlier warning they were going to die.
 
Rams said:
As I said before, the sprinkler isn't so much the issue here. The combustible cladding used in the facade is the issue here.
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Yeah, think I'm inclined to agree. Sprinklers is a bit ''in an ideal world...'' for me.
 
Rams said:
I don't understand that either. I thought smoke detection is obligatory in such type of buildings in the UK, but maybe I'm mistaken. However, I doubt the alarm would have made much difference. It would only have given the residents an slightly earlier warning they were going to die.
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Smoke alarms here are so sensitive they go off if you breathe near them a little bit funny. The video of the trapped woman has alarms going off but they seem very quiet & not particularly alarming - ours are very noisy.

But, as we're saying, lethal cladding & a stay put in event of fire policy is a really bad combination.
 
so May is going to one hospital WOW big deal and she is going to chair a meeting , a fecking meeting , unless it is to give the homeless a house and replace everything they have lost ! no I thought not, too little too fecking late.
 
I think May is a hideous leader but she's in a slightly different position to The Queen and Corbyn in the fact that they are absolutely raging at her at the moment. Her safety concerns are very different than the other two.
 
Dans said:
My thoughts too, though I'll take it further and suggest the Queen is doing what she is BECAUSE May didn't.
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I thought exactly the same. I'd have expected Prince Charles to do a visit like this - the fact that the Queen has gone with Prince William suggests that she wants to make a point.

The Queen is very astute, imo.
 
Snowjoe said:
I think most modern ones are triggered by heat rather than smoke, so someone burning their dinner isn't enough to set the sprinklers off.

I could have pulled that out of my arse though but I think it's right.
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You're spot on, I did my dissertation on sprinkler systems in schools (well lack of them) and most systems are triggered by heat. Iirc they have a little bulb in the sensor and when that burns out due to being so hot, it triggers the sprinklers.
 
Even supposing that you disregarded the advice to stay put, it would still have been quite a trek for those on the upper storeys of the tower. I know my parents would need to pace themselves over a 20+ floor descent, to say nothing of the smoke or those impaired inn some way. But if we could make stairwells more...resistant, safe zones if you will, it might've bought the emergency services time to reach them. Perhaps this already exists in modern constructions?


Don't Kill Bill said:
Why?

I don't want to be funny with you but of all the comments made about this and there have been several which made me angry but the one which made me sit up and want to spit at the TV was uttered by David Aaronovitch when he said on I think News night, that this shouldn't happen in the nation's Capital.

Yes, I agree it shouldn't but it has nothing to do with where the building is. We live in buildings above single storey even outside of London and the issue is a national one unless London has a different building code to the rest of England.
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Oh i didn't mean anything of that nature, simply that Khan is the only Labour figure with the ability to determine policy directly. He could even approach all borough councils to aid in the raising of money, be it for inspections or hosing the victims over the short-medium term. If the council were Labour-led i'd have mentioned them too; not that 'leading' seems to be a very appropriate term for Kensington and Chelsea's.


Mockney said:
Far be it from me to speak for Jip, but I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic. He may be a Tory, but he's one of the less evil ones. I'm not sure how that works, but I've been assured that it can occasionally happen.
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:rolleyes:
 
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Snowjoe said:
I think most modern ones are triggered by heat rather than smoke, so someone burning their dinner isn't enough to set the sprinklers off.

I could have pulled that out of my arse though but I think it's right.
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Heat detectors are put in locations where smoke can be accidental created (mainly kitchens, bathrooms) while smoke detectors are placed everywhere else. Sprinklers are triggered in the same way. It's down to the system designer to work out where to put detectors and they have to have passed strict fire safety courses.
 
RedSky said:
Heat detectors are put in locations where smoke can be accidental created (mainly kitchens, bathrooms) while smoke detectors are placed everywhere else. Sprinklers are triggered in the same way. It's down to the system designer to work out where to put detectors and they have to have passed strict fire safety courses.
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I've shown 2 Fire Surveyors around this place, both of whom were pleasant & well informed. HA/ALMO think only one has visited, action on his recommendations was that I received an unannounced visit on the Saturday morning before Xmas from a nice pair of unassuming contractors who I regrettably told to feck off mainly due to the stress of living here & the harassment type shite they throw at you. We had an unannounced visit about electric inspections on bank holiday sunday. Complain & they never happened or your complaint gets lost. The cheating feckers are impossible to deal with.

They would say (I'm guessing) that they can never gain access because residents are difficult, we say, but your work is consistently shite.

So what they do I suspect is report on completion rates, amount of penetration that they've managed to achieve tat they can report to Government or regulatory authorities as a success. And that is all they are bothered about. So... if you're looking to report successful outcomes, it helps not to be looking too hard for faults & mistakes & so on. Complaints tend to get disregarded / lost as I said earlier.

So, the cladding might not be the full story here, although obviously hugely contributory. I am suspicious about the other work that has only been obliquely referred to so far, I wouldn't be amazed if there isn't something else that has gone on too. #BitConspiracyTheoryAdmittedly

You couldn't encounter a sector that is less interested in giving a feck about the people they deal with, you really couldn't. It's DSS levels of not giving a feck, honestly.
 
montpelier said:
I've shown 2 Fire Surveyors around this place, both of whom were pleasant & well informed. HA/ALMO think only one has visited, action on his recommendations was that I received an unannounced visit on the Saturday morning before Xmas from a nice pair of unassuming contractors who I regrettably told to feck off mainly due to the stress of living here & the harassment type shite they throw at you. We had an unannounced visit about electric inspections on bank holiday sunday. Complain & they never happened or your complaint gets lost. The cheating feckers are impossible to deal with.

They would say (I'm guessing) that they can never gain access because residents are difficult, we say, but your work is consistently shite.

So what they do I suspect is report on completion rates, amount of penetration that they've managed to achieve tat they can report to Government or regulatory authorities as a success. And that is all they are bothered about. So... if you're looking to report successful outcomes, it helps not to be looking too hard for faults & mistakes & so on. Complaints tend to get disregarded / lost as I said earlier.

So, the cladding might not be the full story here, although obviously hugely contributory. I am suspicious about the other work that has only been obliquely referred to so far, I wouldn't be amazed if there isn't something else that has gone on too. #BitConspiracyTheoryAdmittedly

You couldn't encounter a sector that is less interested in giving a feck about the people they deal with, you really couldn't. It's DSS levels of not giving a feck, honestly.
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My experience on the whole with the construction industry was mainly positive. There were a few examples of contractors leaning on sub contractors to cut corners, but we'd tell the contractor to feck off and start quoting the Fire Act at them. But that was having a boss that knew his shit and gave a damn. The Sub Contractors i'm always suspicious of are the ones that can quote an unrealistically low quote just to ensure they get the work. You shudder to think where these cowboys are cutting corners.

We had a good working relationship with a Contractor so were lucky in that regard.
 
Snowjoe said:
I think May is a hideous leader but she's in a slightly different position to The Queen and Corbyn in the fact that they are absolutely raging at her at the moment. Her safety concerns are very different than the other two.
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I doubt anything worse than being barracked would have happened. In fact, after attracting widespead criticism verging on contempt for her hermetically sealed campaign, she could have viewed this as an opportunity to show that she is listening and will make more effort to engage. Maybe not enough to turn around her premiership but certainly enough to gain some grudging respect. Unfortunately, she has just reinforced the impression of total detachment and weak leadership.
 
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