Graham Potter | turns down Ajax job

Rnd898 said:
I think the comparison between Potter and Moyes is a lazy one. The only real similarity they share is that they're both British managers who got an opportunity to make the jump from a midtable club to one of the big boys but that's about it.

One had Brighton playing a high quality offensive style of football that should, at least on paper, translate pretty well to how a top club would want their team to play and I don't think it is/was too far fetched to think with better players than Brighton the result could be really good. The other played shit on a stick football at Everton for a decade and tried to instill the same shit on a stick ideology on the club that had just won the league title under one of the greatest ever managers just few months prior.

With Moyes you knew pretty much from day one his brand of football was not cut out for a big club that required them to play anything other than an underdog style of play. With Potter, just looking at how his Brighton team actually played, the potential is definitely there but of course given his modest CV so far the biggest question remains if he can handle the pressure and the dressing room of a big club and get the players fully buying into his ideas. It's possible the job is 'too big for him' and he can't do that but either way, at least for money there's no denying he's a better and a way more modern manager than Moyesy.

Results and performances so far haven't been good (to put it mildly) but I still want to see how he does with a prolonged run of games with the group of players he now has available that he didn't have before (all the January signings, James, Chilwell and soon Kante as well). If he still doesn't show any improvement from now till the end of the season it's probably time for a change but I don't see what we'd benefit from sacking him right now unless the preferred candidate was someone like Pochettino or Enrique who's available immediately and we'd want to give them a 'lengthy pre-season' to work with the team and prepare for next season. If the change becomes necessary, it's probably better to wait till the end of the season to get a better idea on who's available and there may even be way better options than Poch or Lucho, but in the meantime we can see if Potter starts improving or not.
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I don't think the point around Moyes is that Potter doesn't have the capability to be a better manager, but that he walks, talks acts like he is out of his element at Chelsea in the same way Moyes was at United. Moyes used to exaggerate the strength of our opponents relative to us, and praised us for the most mediocre of displays. Fulham at home, the "day of the crosses" for example.

I do believe there is a massive difference between a winning manager at the top level and the very good managers. It's a blend of qualities that is not easy to identify until you see them in that situation but they have gravitas, personality, they are invariably demanding, highly strung . It really is the top 1%. Can Potter bridge that gap? Not looking good at the moment.
 
Mike Smalling said:
For a club that has had so many big characters as managers - Mourinho, Scolari, Ancelotti, Hiddink, Benitez, Conte, Tuchel, Sarri - this guy stands out like the blandest nobody ever.
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Chelsea usually go from big names to smaller names quite regularly ever since Roman came in.

Jose Mourinho - Avram Grant - Luiz Felipe Scolari - Guus Hiddink - Carlo Ancelotti - Andre Villas Boas - Roberto di Matteo - Rafael Benitez - Jose Mourinho - Guus Hiddink - Antonio Conte - Maurizio Sarri - Frank Lampard - Thomas Tuchel - Graham Potter

Bolded are the 'big names' (Rafa Benitez & Sarri lucky to be considered big tbh) and no point putting in Mou and Hiddink twice.
 
romufc said:
Really? British managers play outdated tactics?

What is the current tactic then?

I suspect you think Eddie Howe and Potter play the same style as Dyche?
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None of them have won anything of note and it's looking like all need to be the underdog, which yes does rely on a certain style of play that runs deeper than just a formation choice.

Britain is not producing managers who can go out to dominate games and win things. And it's not because of a language barrier.
 
fps said:
It's a crazy work environment isn't it. You might have a key person under your stewardship you can't have a single normal conversation with.
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BluesJr said:
My point is that British managers lack the language skills to communicate effectively with multi national dressing rooms.
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Isn't that more on the player than on the manager though? English really isn't that hard to learn (coming from a non-native) and any footballer who comes to live and play in England should start learning the language ASAP if they don't already speak it. Knowing the language will not only help them do their job better but will make a huge difference in adapting to life in a new country as well.

Not knowing the language is something that can be forgiven in the early months after coming in but if they still struggle with the language barrier a year later the problem is not the manager not being proficient in the player's own langague but rather the player himself just being either thick headed or not even bothering to learn.

Just look at the likes of Fikayo Tomori and Tammy Abraham who went to Italy and were already giving out interviews in fluent Italian less than a year after going there. And then there's thick cnuts like Carlos Tevez who played in England for about a decade and never learnt a single word of English.
 
Rnd898 said:
Isn't that more on the player than on the manager though? English really isn't that hard to learn (coming from a non-native) and any footballer who comes to live and play in England should start learning the language ASAP if they don't already speak it. Knowing the language will not only help them do their job better but will make a huge difference in adapting to life in a new country as well.

Not knowing the language is something that can be forgiven in the early months after coming in but if they still struggle with the language barrier a year later the problem is not the manager not being proficient in the player's own langague but rather the player himself just being either thick headed or not even bothering to learn.

Just look at the likes of Fikayo Tomori and Tammy Abraham who went to Italy and were already giving out interviews in fluent Italian less than a year after going there. And then there's thick cnuts like Carlos Tevez who played in England for about a decade and never learnt a single word of English.
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As a native English speaker I disagree, English is a hard language to learn, many common words have different meanings depending on the context that is used, or are pronounced the same way despite having completely different spellings.

Then there's the local dialects, put a Scouser, a Geordie, a Mancunian and a Brummie in the same room a non-native would think they came from different countries based on how the speak!
 
11101 said:
None of them have won anything of note and it's looking like all need to be the underdog, which yes does rely on a certain style of play that runs deeper than just a formation choice.

Britain is not producing managers who can go out to dominate games and win things. And it's not because of a language barrier.
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I think Potter and Howe are very good as far as tactics, personally. You need to be to set up clubs with lesser players than rivals to overperform, especially when that is not being achieved with brute force or physicality. It's not really backs to the wall stuff like you'd see from the old guard of British managers.

My theory is that it has taken a long while for coaching methods in this country to be on a par with the continent. That has coincided with the game in the PL becoming more technical over the years, so British managers have had to improve as nobody kicks it long anymore. But there's a lag effect because actually the managers you're talking about that dominate games and win things are gold dust. It's not like they grow on trees within any country. But certainly some countries had a head start on the tactical side and therefore more chance they will be successful currently.

You need someone not just with the technical side of coaching but also the personality traits to be successful at the elite level. It has to be an exceptional individual and that's what I think the British coaches are lacking now. It will happen at some stage.
 
11101 said:
None of them have won anything of note and it's looking like all need to be the underdog, which yes does rely on a certain style of play that runs deeper than just a formation choice.

Britain is not producing managers who can go out to dominate games and win things. And it's not because of a language barrier.
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So in your opinion, what is anything of note?
 
Abraxas said:
I think Potter and Howe are very good as far as tactics, personally. You need to be to set up clubs with lesser players than rivals to overperform, especially when that is not being achieved with brute force or physicality. It's not really backs to the wall stuff like you'd see from the old guard of British managers.

My theory is that it has taken a long while for coaching methods in this country to be on a par with the continent. That has coincided with the game in the PL becoming more technical over the years, so British managers have had to improve as nobody kicks it long anymore. But there's a lag effect because actually the managers you're talking about that dominate games and win things are gold dust. It's not like they grow on trees within any country. But certainly some countries had a head start on the tactical side and therefore more chance they will be successful currently.

You need someone not just with the technical side of coaching but also the personality traits to be successful at the elite level. It has to be an exceptional individual and that's what I think the British coaches are lacking now. It will happen at some stage.
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Yes, very good points. And who do we compare Howe, Potter, Moyes and Dyche with?

The PL commands the best coaches in the world currently due to the salaries and budgets. The PL has Guardiola, Klopp, Ten Hag, Conte … recently Tuchel, Mourinho, Ancelotti and Pochettino. Clubs like Villa and Wolves lie midtable with Emery and Lopetegui. Those are three Spanish, two German, two Italian coaches. Which nations have significantly more top level coaches that would do ok in the PL?
 
romufc said:
So Brenan Rodgers?
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Where did he come from? You were talking about Potter, Howe and Dyche.


Of course there are British managers in existence who have won something. One of them sits in our directors box most weekends.
 
11101 said:
Where did he come from? You were talking about Potter, Howe and Dyche.


Of course there are British managers in existence who have won something. One of them sits in our directors box most weekends.
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Rodgers won it not 10 years ago, but a few years ago. So how did he win it with outdated tactics?
 
JustinC00 said:
Saying Eddie Howe has a style is being generous. Shithouse time wasting isn't something I would call "style"
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A very naïve post I must say. Newcastle a year ago were fighting relegation, they are now in a real shot of getting top 4.

This was a team that couldn't score goals and couldn't stop conceding. Eddie Howe clearly has a style and it is also obvious he has had to adapt because where they find themselves.

Any manager in his position, would go to Old Trafford, Emirates and waste time.

Christ, even Ten Hag was at Emirates, did you not watch that game? When DDG went down wasting time?
 
romufc said:
A very naïve post I must say. Newcastle a year ago were fighting relegation, they are now in a real shot of getting top 4.

This was a team that couldn't score goals and couldn't stop conceding. Eddie Howe clearly has a style and it is also obvious he has had to adapt because where they find themselves.

Any manager in his position, would go to Old Trafford, Emirates and waste time.

Christ, even Ten Hag was at Emirates, did you not watch that game? When DDG went down wasting time?
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Newcastle have had a very good season but they’re not going to finish in the top 4. Drawing 11 games proves they’re difficult to beat but they still lack ruthlessness. At this point they’re in 4th because of the sheer inconsistency of the teams below them.

I predict they’ll finish 5th with about 15 games drawn in the season which in truth is not good enough for a team with ambitions however from where they were previously an amazing season. The squad itself is pretty iffy, it’s one that’s finished bottom half on countless occasions so it really cannot be said how good they actually are.

As for Howe, he has definitely surprised me but again like Newcastle, there’s simply not enough to go on yet say if he is a one year wonder. They both need to show it over a few seasons. Football changes so quickly year after year it’s very hard to predict who will do well, United is proof of that. You’ve been very good this season but you were losing 4-0 to Watford the previous season.
 
SirReginald said:
Newcastle have had a very good season but they’re not going to finish in the top 4. Drawing 11 games proves they’re difficult to beat but they still lack ruthlessness. At this point they’re in 4th because of the sheer inconsistency of the teams below them.

I predict they’ll finish 5th with about 15 games drawn in the season which in truth is not good enough for a team with ambitions however from where they were previously an amazing season. The squad itself is pretty iffy, it’s one that’s finished bottom half on countless occasions so it really cannot be said how good they actually are.

As for Howe, he has definitely surprised me but again like Newcastle, there’s simply not enough to go on yet say if he is a one year wonder. They both need to show it over a few seasons. Football changes so quickly year after year it’s very hard to predict who will do well, United is proof of that. You’ve been very good this season but you were losing 4-0 to Watford the previous season.
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You do realise we have a different manager this season?

Oh we are doing that, other teams being inconsistent is the reason Newcastle are where they are.

After spending all the money Chelsea did, how did they fare against Newcastle?

Newcastle are also, I remind you in a cup final.

Also, your last line makes no sense, a team who is there on luck is 5 points behind United with a game in hand, a team you saying have been very good this season. Makes no sense at all.

Eddie Howe has done a fantastic job, lucky / unlucky, they have the most clean sheets and a very good defensive record.
 
The Corinthian said:
Chelsea usually go from big names to smaller names quite regularly ever since Roman came in.
Jose Mourinho - Avram Grant - Luiz Felipe Scolari - Guus Hiddink - Carlo Ancelotti - Andre Villas Boas - Roberto di Matteo - Rafael Benitez - Jose Mourinho - Guus Hiddink - Antonio Conte - Maurizio Sarri - Frank Lampard - Thomas Tuchel - Graham Potter
Bolded are the 'big names' (Rafa Benitez & Sarri lucky to be considered big tbh) and no point putting in Mou and Hiddink twice.
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When you run through managers with the frequency that Chelsea you will run out of top managers quickly

Madrid even had to inject Solari Lopetegui Pellegrini, Lopez Caro, Ramos, Luxemburgo, Camacho, Carlos Ramon, and even Zidane (when he was hired)
 
mu4c_20le said:
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Comments like these might be the biggest indication yet that he's not up to the job. Potter wasn't dealt the easiest hand taking over at Chelsea but you need to have a big personality to survive at these types of clubs and it doesn't look like he has it.

You could just about give Potter the benefit of the doubt after the summer window as he was new into the job and the players brought in weren't signed by him. He can't continue speaking as though he's manager of a Brighton when £300m worth of players have just walked through the door under his watch. That type of investment is unprecedented.
 
CM10 said:
Comments like these might be the biggest indication yet that he's not up to the job. Potter wasn't dealt the easiest hand taking over at Chelsea but you need to have a big personality to survive at these types of clubs and it doesn't look like he has it.

You could just about give Potter the benefit of the doubt after the summer window as he was new into the job and the players brought in weren't signed by him. He can't continue speaking as though he's manager of a Brighton when £300m worth of players have just walked through the door under his watch. That type of investment is unprecedented.
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Potter is a manager who will take time to embed his style and generally has a very calm approach to his interviews and his process.

He's not going to change that for the sake of a club, just like Ten Hag/Klopp/Pep wouldn't change theirs.
 
VP89 said:
Potter is a manager who will take time to embed his style and generally has a very calm approach to his interviews and his process.

He's not going to change that for the sake of a club, just like Ten Hag/Klopp/Pep wouldn't change theirs.
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Yes, but that approach doesn't really wash when you aren't getting results.

Ten Hag is a prime example of a manager who is changing to suit the needs of the club, by the way. He's been far more pragmatic in his approach since the Brentford game at the start of the season and has compromised on some of his ideals in order to win quickly. Potter's had a blank chequebook and still looks incapable of stringing two wins together.
 
romufc said:
You do realise we have a different manager this season?

Oh we are doing that, other teams being inconsistent is the reason Newcastle are where they are.

After spending all the money Chelsea did, how did they fare against Newcastle?

Newcastle are also, I remind you in a cup final.

Also, your last line makes no sense, a team who is there on luck is 5 points behind United with a game in hand, a team you saying have been very good this season. Makes no sense at all.

Eddie Howe has done a fantastic job, lucky / unlucky, they have the most clean sheets and a very good defensive record.
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What’s a new manager got to do with it. You’ve had your fair share over the last 10 years and not a lot to show for it. The squad has always been a top 4 quality team yet placements and results have varied. That’s not just down to one man and his dog.

My point is Newcastle are over achieving it’s a simple fact that you need to accept. On top of that they have drawn more than they’ve won. If they draw 15 games in a season that is not typical of a top 4 team. If you go 38 games and drawn 20, win 10, lose 10 you’d be bottom half for example. Drawing is not necessarily a good thing. Though they were leaking goals last season and I very clearly said they’ve done amazing regardless. But again they will not finish top 4 and you cannot change my mind on that.
 
CM10 said:
Yes, but that approach doesn't really wash when you aren't getting results.

Ten Hag is a prime example of a manager who is changing to suit the needs of the club, by the way. He's been far more pragmatic in his approach since the Brentford game at the start of the season and has compromised on some of his ideals in order to win quickly. Potter's had a blank chequebook and still looks incapable of stringing two wins together.
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The approach isn't designed to wash right now. He's there for embedding the long term philosophy and should be judged against that.

Also Ten Hag has made small tweaks but he's not changing his philosophy whatsoever. We're still playing out the back a lot since the Brentford debacle, and in our last games we have been punished on 3-4 occasions. Arsenal got a goal from it and Leeds almost got 2 in the last fixture.
 
VP89 said:
The approach isn't designed to wash right now. He's there for embedding the long term philosophy and should be judged against that.

Also Ten Hag has made small tweaks but he's not changing his philosophy whatsoever. We're still playing out the back a lot since the Brentford debacle, and in our last games we have been punished on 3-4 occasions. Arsenal got a goal from it and Leeds almost got 2 in the last fixture.
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How long do you give a manager free rein to do as he pleases before you expect some kind of progress though? Arteta more or less had that with Arsenal but it's the only example I can think of in the Premier League era.

I actually like Potter as a coach but he's far more suited to the likes of Tottenham than the ruthless winning machine Chelsea have been over the last 20 years. If you're receiving the kind of resources Potter has you need to win and fast. He will probably get this season for free as Boehly has put so much into backing him (and who Boehly got rid of to back him) but if Potter doesn't get it together by the start of next season his position becomes untenable.

Ten Hag has made plenty of concessions on personnel because most managers aren't afforded the privilege of changing an entire squad overnight. De Gea is the most notable example in the starting eleven but there are/were plenty in the squad this season. Fundamentally, Ten Hag has the aura and gravitas for one of the top clubs in the same way Guardiola and Klopp do. The same can't be said for Potter at this moment in time.
 
CM10 said:
How long do you give a manager free rein to do as he pleases before you expect some kind of progress though? Arteta more or less had that with Arsenal but it's the only example I can think of in the Premier League era.

I actually like Potter as a coach but he's far more suited to the likes of Tottenham than the ruthless winning machine Chelsea have been over the last 20 years. If you're receiving the kind of resources Potter has you need to win and fast. He will probably get this season for free as Boehly has put so much into backing him (and who Boehly got rid of to back him) but if Potter doesn't get it together by the start of next season his position becomes untenable.

Ten Hag has made plenty of concessions on personnel because most managers aren't afforded the privilege of changing an entire squad overnight. De Gea is the most notable example in the starting eleven but there are/were plenty in the squad this season. Fundamentally, Ten Hag has the aura and gravitas for one of the top clubs in the same way Guardiola and Klopp do. The same can't be said for Potter at this moment in time.
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I'd give Potter into next season. He's had no pre-season and has been thrown 20 new players.

Pep and Klopp took a season to get going themselves. Why should Potter get less time? He's up against it more than they were, because its all been thrown at him at once and he needs to get his bearings right, get a pre-season in and work his methods. He's also had terrible luck on injuries whether its Kante or Kovacic or Zakaria in the middle, Fofana, Chilwell, James at the back etc.
 
VP89 said:
I'd give Potter into next season. He's had no pre-season and has been thrown 20 new players.

Pep and Klopp took a season to get going themselves. Why should Potter get less time? He's up against it more than they were, because its all been thrown at him at once and he needs to get his bearings right, get a pre-season in and work his methods. He's also had terrible luck on injuries whether its Kante or Kovacic or Zakaria in the middle, Fofana, Chilwell, James at the back etc.
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I haven't actually said Potter should get less time, I expect he will be given the summer window and the start of next season to get Chelsea going. You have to earn that time though. If Chelsea are still in 9th or 10th position by the season's end struggling to win 2 games consecutively and not playing particularly good football, surely you have to consider cutting losses?

Even the most ardent Potter supporters must accept he isn't Pep or Klopp. Guardiola came into Man City having won everywhere he had been previously, Klopp got an unfancied Dortmund team to win Bundesliga and took them to a Champions League final. Potter's achievements in the game don't stack up anywhere close to those guys.
 
VP89 said:
I'd give Potter into next season. He's had no pre-season and has been thrown 20 new players.

Pep and Klopp took a season to get going themselves. Why should Potter get less time? He's up against it more than they were, because its all been thrown at him at once and he needs to get his bearings right, get a pre-season in and work his methods. He's also had terrible luck on injuries whether its Kante or Kovacic or Zakaria in the middle, Fofana, Chilwell, James at the back etc.
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You’re doing the lord’s work in here mate. When I say it it comes just across as biased head in the sand nonsense, so thanks :lol:
 
CM10 said:
I haven't actually said Potter should get less time, I expect he will be given the summer window and the start of next season to get Chelsea going. You have to earn that time though. If Chelsea are still in 9th or 10th position by the season's end struggling to win 2 games consecutively and not playing particularly good football, surely you have to consider cutting losses?

Even the most ardent Potter supporters must accept he isn't Pep or Klopp. Guardiola came into Man City having won everywhere he had been previously, Klopp got an unfancied Dortmund team to win Bundesliga and took them to a Champions League final. Potter's achievements in the game don't stack up anywhere close to those guys.
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So if the more established managers of pep and klopp needed at least a season, and were generally poor whilst they were bedding in, why should Potter get less patience?
 
VP89 said:
So if the more established managers of pep and klopp needed at least a season, and were generally poor whilst they were bedding in, why should Potter get less patience?
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Klopp got to two cup finals in his first season as Liverpool manager and improved their general level of performance. He also took over mid season and signed one player. He earned the right. Pep came 4th in his first season but City had done the groundwork with Txiki Begiristain to set them up so the club was going to be built exactly as he wanted it.

Potter is the antithesis of what Chelsea have represented as a club for the last 20 years. That's not necessarily a reflection on him as a coach but it makes it a lot harder for him to succeed if the entire philosophy of the club has to change with him. Like him or not, Potter also remains completely unproven at this level and it's an entirely different proposition when a team like Chelsea are languishing in 10th(!) place. When you have two coaches who have proven themselves at the top of their domestic leagues and in Europe, you will naturally have far more confidence in them finding their way than a man whose best achievement as a manager is a top half finish with Brighton.
 
VP89 said:
So if the more established managers of pep and klopp needed at least a season, and were generally poor whilst they were bedding in, why should Potter get less patience?
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Because people count on Chelsea panicking, cutting managers every 6 months, and generally lacking a coherent plan or direction. It’s the major thing that’s held us back for a loooooong time, and opposing teams don’t want that to change. So I’m seeing the “How much longer til Potter gets the sack?” On TV and pundit channels as much or more than Chelsea content.

The team has a definitive idea of how they want to play. Potters style is complex and takes time for people to get good it, and the whole squad is in flux.

Some of these guys starting have been with the teams weeks only.

And they are already playing some beautiful football. Trust the process. If you want to get to a place where you are a consistently great team, the the Roman way needs to go away.
 
VP89 said:
So if the more established managers of pep and klopp needed at least a season, and were generally poor whilst they were bedding in, why should Potter get less patience?
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Come on now, that's not even remotely comparable.
 
bond19821982 said:
Come on now, that's not even remotely comparable.
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Its comparable in the sense that managers need a lot of time and patience. Way more than what's being afforded to Potter by trial of social opinion.
 
Chelsea following in our footsteps and showing that blinding throwing loads of money at the problem doesn't solve much
 
What? We were fantastic tonight. Very good. Best performance under Potter so far.
 
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