Graeme Sourness | Retires from “punditry”

[BerryBerryShrew]

The trouble with arguments like yours & the others that people make is that you use exceptions as the rule whilst, probably more importantly, you talk for Souness as if you know him personally & dismiss any possibility that something other than footballing ability played a role in his coverage of most illuminatingly Pogba.

I actually agree that he comes across at times as jealous of modern players, Kante & Mane are perceived as hard workers, bar the fact Mane played for Liverpool, his issues tend to come with flair players of a certain demographic.

I can’t tell you if Souness is a racist so why do so many posters want to tell others he certainly isn’t? Maybe, just maybe, you shouldn’t dismiss the possibility of it.

Too many posters read the word racism & think it’s made as a blanket statement about everything somebody does. The man sat next to an ex-female footballer & spouted ‘it’s a man’s game’, is it really that unbelievable that he’d have other blind spots about what he believes a [insert demographic here] footballer should be.

But the point is that Souness has demonstrably been a great friend to the black community at potential great personal cost (losing friends, alienating teammates) in the past (which is almost certainly more than any of the keyboard warriors in this thread have ever done). So it seems like accusing him of racism is a bit of incredibly unfair and unfounded criticism if not genuine slander. If anyone deserves the benefit of the doubt, he does.

Also men's football is a man's game. As an aside.

 

[Ludens the Red]

I don’t know if Souness is racist but this idea that he may be racist because he has a tendency to pick on mostly black players is kind of fictitious. He’s been on sky for about ten years surely everyone knows his schtick. He slags off any player who doesn’t fit into what he sees as a “footballer”. Any footballer who has one of those spells in their career where they look like they don’t give a feck or doesn’t run around and tackle or look hard like he did, he’s right there to tear them a new one. I’ve heard that guy slag off the likes of Ozil, Xhaka repeatedly. I’m amazed nobody has cottoned onto his Xhaka stuff, It was almost as bad as his Pogba grudge. I remember a game Bale scored a couple of goals for spurs and he came out after the game slagging off Bale cos he’d been golfing and shit months earlier. He’s just a whingy moany old bastard. He’s the kind of bloke who’d see a tree tipped over in the forest and start shouting at it for not having the balls to stay on its feet.
Roy Keane basically does the same thing except it’s funny when he does it but he’s had a go at a fair few black players too but I’m not so sure you’d have many on here accusing Keane of being racist.

 

[Bubz27]

Why does this keep getting brought up. The man didn't rate Pogba, get over it. It has nothing to do with the colour of his skin.
I have heard Souness praising Kante to the heavens on numerous occasions. Isn't he black??

The fact is Pogba is one of the most underwhelming transfers in PL history and deserves all the criticism he gets.

Yes he is mate.

 

[Member 117152]

He’s not racist at all. The thing with Souness is he absolutely despises our club and doesn’t really hide it.

Even if he ever admitted we are the biggest club in the England he’s only doing that so he has more rope to insult us. Any new player we sign he is going to trash regardless.

Part of it is envy with his Liverpool ties. When they were mid table they weren’t exactly signing CL winners since they don’t have a draw like United and that’s a fact.

So obviously they have to roll out the classic “oh yeah he’s only coming for a payday”. Why would anyone come to the premier league for an easy life?

PSG exists and I’m sure Casemiro would easily start for them or anyone else.

 

[keithsingleton]

He’s not racist at all.

Your right he's not a racist, probably just upset a few snowflakes. Many people just catching up with what you can and can't say these days.

 

[RedorDead21]

Hopefully unlike with Pogba his views are disproven by Casemiro becoming a great PL midfielder. If anything pogba underwhelmed too often for me to embarrass souness into any change of mind. I’m not sure these pundits watch Europeans any more than we do. I take a lot of what they say with a large lorry load of salt.

 

[JB7]

. . .

Are you being wilfully ignorant or is comprehension not a strong point for you.

The problem with your argument is that you were rightfully told you can’t dismiss something on behalf of someone you’ve never met & instead of owning up to that fact you’ve made stuff up.


The irony that you’re upset about the inequality of my criticism more so than the inequality of Souness’s Lad you are blatantly not capable of having a grown up conversation here.

I just pointed out the irony of your post, given you're happy to let people have their say one way but not the other. You're correct you did say you couldn't tell people if he was a racist but you were openly questioning why posters were saying he was definitively not racist, but funnily enough were not questioning why posters were saying he definitively is a racist. You also in the same post said that he has issues with "flair players of a certain demographic". Both of which would strongly suggested that you did have an opinion on the matter. So in future, if you really want to try so hard to be a sarcastic fecker, get your own house in order first and in addition, realise you hadn't told me anything as you were responding to another poster, I presume reading a poster's username is challenging for you? If you want to actually discuss further take it to private messages because I'm not interested in looking like I'm sticking up for Souness because that is frankly the last thing I want to do in any situation. Have a nice day.

 

[fergieisold]

he’s a definite racist. i had the misfortune of being on the same flight as him a few years ago. a black chap boarded the plane and souness refused to stand up and applaud like the rest of us.

 

[glazed]

He was right about Pogba, let's face it. And if he'd come out and said that women's football is about the same physical level as male under 14s then he would have been slaughtered but it's still true.

That said he's still a dipper fossil who talks about football like he prefers it as a punch up in a mud bath in a January blizzard. So he can fek off.

 

[Marwood]

The trouble with arguments like yours & the others that people make is that you use exceptions as the rule whilst, probably more importantly, you talk for Souness as if you know him personally & dismiss any possibility that something other than footballing ability played a role in his coverage of most illuminatingly Pogba.

I actually agree that he comes across at times as jealous of modern players, Kante & Mane are perceived as hard workers, bar the fact Mane played for Liverpool, his issues tend to come with flair players of a certain demographic.

I can’t tell you if Souness is a racist so why do so many posters want to tell others he certainly isn’t? Maybe, just maybe, you shouldn’t dismiss the possibility of it.

Too many posters read the word racism & think it’s made as a blanket statement about everything somebody does. The man sat next to an ex-female footballer & spouted ‘it’s a man’s game’, is it really that unbelievable that he’d have other blind spots about what he believes a [insert demographic here] footballer should be.

But do you not think its a little out of order to even speculate about another person being racist when there's nothing to go on?

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

But the point is that Souness has demonstrably been a great friend to the black community at potential great personal cost (losing friends, alienating teammates) in the past (which is almost certainly more than any of the keyboard warriors in this thread have ever done).

Souness’s account of things. 2 incidents of racism in his career, says he did nothing at the time.

The above aside. Let’s say your claims are true, he lost friends & teammates because he treated black people like. . . people, that’s not something to celebrate, it’s the bare fecking minimum.

This forum truly shows its arse on issues like this. Keyboard warriors indeed.

So it seems like accusing him of racism is a bit of incredibly unfair and unfounded criticism if not genuine slander.

Slander would be the non-football related criticism of Paul Pogba throughout the years.

If anyone deserves the benefit of the doubt, he does.

For what exactly?

Feck me, what a post.

I just pointed out the irony of your post, given you're happy to let people have their say one way but not the other. You're correct you did say you couldn't tell people if he was a racist but you were openly questioning why posters were saying he was definitively not racist, but funnily enough were not questioning why posters were saying he definitively is a racist.

Ok so at what point have you questioned posters that are categorically dismissing race? Or is this really just another way to subvert the discussion. I’ve had some disingenuous nonsense thrown my way on this forum before but honestly this pretence is a new low.

I’m not the BBC [pun] News; I speak from the perspective that I can’t say he is racist so was addressing the posters who claim he definitively is not. Curiously you haven’t addressed those posters about their lack of duality.

You also in the same post said that he has issues with "flair players of a certain demographic". Both of which would strongly suggested that you did have an opinion on the matter.

Comprehension again. I said I can’t tell you if Souness is a racist or not, of course I have an opinion on the matter. Read up on biases then come back to me.

So in future, if you really want to try so hard to be a sarcastic fecker, get your own house in order first

What does this even mean.

realise you hadn't told me anything as you were responding to another poster, I presume reading a poster's username is challenging for you?

You’ve been addressed accordingly.

If you want to actually discuss further take it to private messages because I'm not interested in looking like I'm sticking up for Souness because that is frankly the last thing I want to do in any situation. Have a nice day.

Don’t address me in the public sphere with gaslighting nonsense then demand to be shown the cordiality you’ve not shown yourself.

I’d be embarrassed to defend Souness too.

But do you not think its a little out of order to even speculate about another person being racist when there's nothing to go on?

This question would be best directed towards a poster that has labelled him a racist.

But seeing as we’re being rhetorical, do you not think it’s a little out of order to go on to a football show as a pundit to talk about the on field performances then proceed to make personal critiques of a footballer with nothing to go on?

 

[sun_tzu]

The Scottish Roy Keane. He was a hell of a player.

Yeah... wasn't a patch on Robson though

 

[njred]

Yeah... wasn't a patch on Robson though

Souness was slightly better. Better tackler and passer. I think we might have been in for Robson back then if I recall. Any way Robson was captain of England and played for united so his stature was immense. Both great players.

 

[BerryBerryShrew]

Souness’s account of things. 2 incidents of racism in his career, says he did nothing at the time.

The above aside. Let’s say your claims are true, he lost friends & teammates because he treated black people like. . . people, that’s not something to celebrate, it’s the bare fecking minimum.

This forum truly shows its arse on issues like this. Keyboard warriors indeed.

Ha, the folly of youth! You must be very young to type that so I won't hold it against you. What you may not realise is the what you describe as "the bare minimum" now was far from being the bare minimum in the past.

When Souness took stances against sectarianism, it was at a time when it was commonly accepted. When he was strongly pro-gay rights it was at a time where homophobia was the norm. When he was (as you say) treating black people like people, it was at a time where the majority most definitely weren't doing that. (See post 3568 for context)

It's very easy to sit around pontificating from an altar today tweeting BLM or Rainbow flags or whatever when you are in a comfortable majority and in the mainstream. It takes real guts and morals to do it when the world is against you. That's why I respect the guy and why I don't think he deserves to have his character called into question for no reason than he does not like a footballer who happens to be widely disliked.

As for keyboard warriors, when's the last time you or any of the others questioning Souness' character have actually done something that was even moderately morally impressive? Everyone talks a good game, but Souness walked the walk when the walking was tough. Remember that.

 

[galwayfa]

He was right about Pogba, let's face it. And if he'd come out and said that women's football is about the same physical level as male under 14s then he would have been slaughtered but it's still true.

That said he's still a dipper fossil who talks about football like he prefers it as a punch up in a mud bath in a January blizzard. So he can fek off.

what about if you had a daughter playing at that level, seeing the few play u14, these girls are unbelieavele

 

[jesperjaap]

Souness was slightly better. Better tackler and passer. I think we might have been in for Robson back then if I recall. Any way Robson was captain of England and played for united so his stature was immense. Both great players.

Souness was a great player....but get outta here, not on the same level as Robson

 

[Loon]

Souness was a great player....but get outta here, not on the same level as Robson

Exactly. Club and country.

 

[jesperjaap]

Exactly. Club and country.

If it wasnt for his injury record and if he was playing in a successful side which we most certainly werent when I was growing up.....we would be talking about one of the countries best ever players, but outside of our fan base he is very rarely mentioned.

Im biased as he was my hero growing up and a huge reason why I started supporting this club in the early 80s....evern so, as good as Souness was and he was very good.....no way does he compare favourably to Robson to me. When Robson was fit we were almost contenders, when he wasnt we were more mid table.

One of the things that has saddened me more than others about this club over the last decade, far further really, is our lack of great quality in midfield having grown up with Robson, Ince, Keane, Scholes...for me all world class players......Carrick was good, especially at the back end of his time here said not with disrespect, wasnt fit to lace any of those players boots and yet he is still way clear of anybody who has succeeded him in our midfield since, not had one decent one since, lets hope Casemeiro and maybe a new signing can fill that void

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Souness was slightly better. Better tackler and passer. I think we might have been in for Robson back then if I recall. Any way Robson was captain of England and played for united so his stature was immense. Both great players.

Not even close.

Souness went through players (in a time that was allowed even lauded). Robson could do too but could also tackle and come out with the ball… and a lot of the time he didn’t need to as he was very fast over 10-15 yards and great reading of the game/anticipation.

And he certainly wasn’t better at passing, especially longer passes.

Didn’t have the same engine, Robson regularly went from box to box and fantastic timing to arrive in the penalty box, something Souness rarely did (apart from maybe early Boro games) because he wasn’t an all round midfielder like Robson was. Even calling him an all round midfielder doesn’t do him justice.. great defensively, great in the middle, great attacking… literally covered every blade of grass.

Miles behind in heading, Robson was as good as most centre forwards/centre halves despite being relatively small (Martinez level).

Better leader, he “led” by example without shouting and everyone who played with him said he was simply inspiring and a person you wanted to follow.

And he had over a dozen caps before coming to United. I watched United play at the Hawthorns in 80 - part of a very good West Brom team but clearly destined for greatness then.

Souness was a very good player in great teams, surrounded by great players (I’d rate McDermott and obviously Dalglish above him, never mind Neal, Hansen, Rush)….. Robson was a great player in a good team and inspired them (at times almost single handedly) to results that those teams had absolutely no right to get.

 

[Vanrouge]

You'd have to work extremely hard in 2022 to be unaware of obvious racist tropes. One poster literally spelled out three: haircuts, entourages, and even fecking dabbing, ffs! These are racist dog whistles most of us know by now, even the most oblivious of us. At this point, not knowing about them begins to look like outright refusal to see or acknowledge them, and it honestly feels incredibly disingenuous.

Note I'm not saying Souness himself is conscious of these biases, as he's a fossil, but if you think of yourself as a reasonably aware person, there's no excuse not to be aware of these often historic tropes.

If you're still in denial, try a quick experiment: put the words "white people policing black hair" into Google and see what comes up. Until people stop pretending this stuff isn't real, we'll make little further progress in antiracism, which is incredibly sad. It just takes people to admit they aren't as informed as they thought; honestly, that alone would be a great help, and we wouldn't constantly have to keep starting these conversations with the basics.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Ha, the folly of youth! You must be very young to type that so I won't hold it against you. What you may not realise is the what you describe as "the bare minimum" now was far from being the bare minimum in the past.

Ah the folly ignorance.

I could tell you my lived & learned experiences but as with most of this discussion it would all go well over that rather narrow mind of yours.

It’s difficult to conceive someone missing a point so badly.

When Souness took stances against sectarianism, it was at a time when it was commonly accepted. When he was strongly pro-gay rights it was at a time where homophobia was the norm. When he was (as you say) treating black people like people, it was at a time where the majority most definitely weren't doing that. (See post 3568 for context)

The same Souness that admitted to ‘not challenging it (racism)’ on more than one occasion, in the link posted in post 3613. That doesn’t sound like a great friend to the black community [some serious othering btw], not being a racist isn’t being an ally. You don’t get pat yourself on the back for being a decent person to your equals because ‘others were not’.

Sectarianism, Homophobia, not the topic here but I’m aware.

It's very easy to sit around pontificating from an altar today tweeting BLM or Rainbow flags or whatever when you are in a comfortable majority and in the mainstream. It takes real guts and morals to do it when the world is against you. That's why I respect the guy and why I don't think he deserves to have his character called into question for no reason than he does not like a footballer who happens to be widely disliked.

What have BLM or rainbow flags got to do with this. I’d suggest you were rather young with such an infantile response but it generally takes years to become so bigoted.

Laughable you mention pontificating about BLM as Souness cites Black Lives Matter as a reason he’d react better to racism in 2020 than he did previously.

It takes real guts & morals to use your position of privilege to treat people as equals. Words of wise old man indeed.

Speaking of widely disliked footballers, Pogba often draws a blind spot so how about his criticism of Moise Kean in 2019. Where he again goes into off field criticism even comparing him to Adebayor!? I wonder what the similarities were for Graeme on that one.

As for keyboard warriors, when's the last time you or any of the others questioning Souness' character have actually done something that was even moderately morally impressive? Everyone talks a good game, but Souness walked the walk when the walking was tough. Remember that.

You’ve made it abundantly clear that not everyone talks a good game.

‘Only twice in my life, in the football world, and that’s the world I know, was I confronted with racist remarks.

And I didn’t challenge them.’

Walked the walk when the walking was tough indeed.

You'd have to work extremely hard in 2022 to be unaware of obvious racist tropes. One poster literally spelled out three: haircuts, entourages, and even fecking dabbing, ffs! These are racist dog whistles most of us know by now, even the most oblivious of us. At this point, not knowing about them begins to look like outright refusal to see or acknowledge them, and it honestly feels incredibly disingenuous.

Note I'm not saying Souness himself is conscious of these biases, as he's a fossil, but if you think of yourself as a reasonably aware person, there's no excuse not to be aware of these often historic tropes.

If you're still in denial, try a quick experiment: put the words "white people policing black hair" into Google and see what comes up. Until people stop pretending this stuff isn't real, we'll make little further progress in antiracism, which is incredibly sad. It just takes people to admit they aren't as informed as they thought; honestly, that alone would be a great help, and we wouldn't constantly have to keep starting these conversations with the basics.

It’s always illuminating in these instances to see the people you share a fanbase with.

Good post.

 

[glazed]

what about if you had a daughter playing at that level, seeing the few play u14, these girls are unbelieavele

I go to my daughter's piano recital but I wouldn't expect anyone else to be interested.

 

[Herman Toothrot]

You'd have to work extremely hard in 2022 to be unaware of obvious racist tropes. One poster literally spelled out three: haircuts, entourages, and even fecking dabbing, ffs! These are racist dog whistles most of us know by now, even the most oblivious of us. At this point, not knowing about them begins to look like outright refusal to see or acknowledge them, and it honestly feels incredibly disingenuous.

Note I'm not saying Souness himself is conscious of these biases, as he's a fossil, but if you think of yourself as a reasonably aware person, there's no excuse not to be aware of these often historic tropes.

If you're still in denial, try a quick experiment: put the words "white people policing black hair" into Google and see what comes up. Until people stop pretending this stuff isn't real, we'll make little further progress in antiracism, which is incredibly sad. It just takes people to admit they aren't as informed as they thought; honestly, that alone would be a great help, and we wouldn't constantly have to keep starting these conversations with the basics.

The idea he works where he works and doesn't know this.

BTW, to anyone using the word 'snowflake', do you feel as much of cnut saying it as you sound to everyone else hearing it? Grow up.

 

[poleglass red]

Pundits were right to criticise Pogba and plenty more than Souness did. I think where Souness was a bit off, was he criticised Pogba because of his price tag, for not running the show, not dictating the pace of the game. That was never Pogba's game, no matter how much we paid for him. I think Souness picked on a facet of his game that was never there, not when he played well for Juve or France. There were so many legit reasons to criticse Pogba during his time here, I just always felt Souness seen a price tag, and was expecting the total package.Souness came from an era where mids did the defensive part and then got forward and joined the attack, made tackles, did everything. Maybe they don't fully buy into the modern mid, who tend to be either attacking or defensive.

 

[padr81]

Aside from Pogba, are there other examples of this kind of bias? How did he view Yaya Toure for example?
I don’t buy the racism to be honest, maybe there is alittle in it - but I think Pogba just rubbed him up the wrong way, the way he has done with a larger portion of the fan base.

As for the man’s game comment. It was a common phrase until recently and the guy is what 70?

He was a big Yaya fan.

In fact for a racist, his all time PL foreign XI is quite diverse. Not a Di Canio or Duncan Ferguson in sight.
https://en.africatopsports.com/2020...-toure-in-his-premier-league-best-foreign-xi/

 

[Vanrouge]

It’s always illuminating in these instances to see the people you share a fanbase with.

Good post.

Illuminating and often frustrating. It's like we have to reset the discussion to the basics every single time it comes up. I want to say to these people, "Get up to speed first before you address race." Displaying such ignorance of the basic tenets and roots and history of racism is not a good look. In a sense, these "[X] can't be a racist as he did a nice thing once for [x Black man]" types are the equivalent of the "Some of my best friends are Black" folks.

Thanks, and I've appreciated your contributions to this discussion too.

 

[Vanrouge]

The idea he works where he works and doesn't know this.

BTW, to anyone using the word 'snowflake', do you feel as much of cnut saying it as you sound to everyone else hearing it? Grow up.

You might well be right, but I'd argue that it's possible to have entirely subconscious racial biases. Perhaps most of us do. In that sense, many others are a mix of the conscious and subconscious. I mean, we tend to picture some virulent, hateful character when we think of racism, but many of us (as this very discussion demonstrates) are simply clueless. I suspect, given Souness's age and the evidence we've seen that he's more a "get off my lawn" type than an Eric Clapton in the seventies type, he's in the latter camp. From the racial tropes he's mentioned ad nauseam about Pogba and others to his sneering dismissal of new football terms ("low block") to his old-school "man's game" sentiments, he seems like someone who has struggled to stay with the times, is partially aware of his anachronistic status compared to younger pundits of colour, and is defensive about it. Put it this way: he doesn't exactly strike me as the introspective type.

Yeah, as for "snowflake," it's embarrassing to use such a term. Same with "woke," a perfectly good word with plenty of pedigree (we can trace it back to at least the 1930s) that came out of African American Vernacular English and Black activism and has been appropriated by angry gammons for mockery. Talk about "not a good look"!

 

[Samid]

 

[Oldham]

"not special at anything"
What a tool that man is sometimes...

 

[I’m loving my life]

This following a MOTM performance against Southampton?

Surely this obviously biased and baseless idiocy is punishable. The bellend needs calling out for this.

 

[VorZakone]

This following a MOTM performance against Southampton?

Surely this obviously biased and baseless idiocy is punishable. The bellend needs calling out for this.

Punish Souness for his opinion on a footballer?

 

[cyberman]

Adams winning every single header against Chelsea tonight.
Think of how many high balls Adams is winning with the defender choosing not to engage him and all that nonsense. Don’t have enough fingers to count on.

 

[Samid]

 

[Port Vale Devil]

Yeah basically Souness said he wasn’t a £100m footballer originally and Grealish was questioned on the remarks during the England press conference.

Grealish doesnt come across very well taking exception to pundits opinions after his remarks on Almiron(I think) in their champions celebrations.

 

[Zoo]

 

[Chief123]

 

[Hugh Jass]

Brilliant.

 

[Pickle85]

Brilliant.

An example of MAD i would like to see play out.

 

[horsechoker]

Simon Jordan DESTROYS Graham Souness with FACTS and LOGIC

 

[Gazza]

Simon Jordan is occasionally wrong but always worth listening to. Graeme Souness is rarely right and never worth listening to. This was great viewing and someone should have done this kind of thing (challenging weak opinions and the 'he doesn't know our league' shit) before. Souness got destroyed here.