The thing is though when hes playing so far forward losing the ball from holding onto it too long isnt really an issue, its pretty standard for an attacking playmaker. Jack Grealish probably does it just as much. Youve got the midfield and the centre backs all behind you to clear it up so the risk/reward balance is a lot more acceptable. By comparison losing the ball like that if youre playing centre midfield is potentially catastrophic because youre right in front of your own centre backs.
Graeme Sourness | Retires from “punditry”
- Thread starter Bubz27
- Start date
The problem is threads like this are an example of exactly why Souness gets to keep his platform. It generates a response and it's become a meme at this point and some people will turn up just to see how he reacts to Pogba, there's even people here who are looking forward to seeing how Souness can possibly react to a great/poor Pogba performance and Sky is not going to stop that unless the old geezer properly fecks up by making an unforgivable comment. Short of that, he'll keep having his spot there and it seems like it will always get a response as well.
This is what I mean.
Thuram, Benzema and Nasri have spoken about this as an issue.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thecon...underlying-tensions-over-race-and-class-99781
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It’s perfectly fine to feel this way, but do you realise how arrogant it sounds to state it as a matter of fact, coming from someone who in all likelihood has never faced the kind of discrimination that’s being discussed in this thread? With all due respect, unless you’ve been on the end of it, you’d ability to identify it is minimal. The majority in this thread aren’t even accusing him of being an outright racist, people are just floating the possibility that there’s a racial element to his criticism. A lot of you seem to be of the belief that unless someone spews outright racial abuse, then it’s impossible for them to hold any prejudice, which is extremely naive.
Why do you think that? Which defamation defence would the Caf rely upon?
Id love to read some of them though
Souness spouting nonsense.. brings reaction from fans....brings attention to what Souness is telling--- brings reaction from fans.. It is a chicken or egg story.
But the important thing is that media in the country has a deep influence on the narrative. Some players are classified as divers, while some are not, though both set of players dive. Some set of teams are accused of getting easy penalties, even when many of them are genuine fouls that need to be given penalties. Some managers are constantly criticized, while some are ignored.
In the same GW, some referee decisions are talked about, while some are ignored.
All this affects the officials (wish it didn't). Refs don't give fouls, FA takes action against certain managers while ignoring others etc etc.
So it becomes important what Souness or Neville keep talking. We can be as dismissive as we want about all these pundits, but they really drive the narrative.
I don't think there's any risk of being convicted of libel for calling someone racist, for the same reason there's no risk of being convicted of libel for calling someone an idiot. It's basically one person's opinion against another, and libel has to be you saying something you know to be untrue about someone else in order to undermine their reputation.
Those letters sound more like empty threats designed to force the forum into silence rather than something that's actually enforceable.
Well glad we have our own Caf solicitor on board now to tell us how we should run the place. You are a solicitor right?
Sorry for simply stating my opinion, my arrogance is truly on a different level.
You didn’t state it as an opinion though. But thanks for reinforcing your arrogant stance. I look forward to your next post on racism towards black people, seeing as your so experienced in the matter.
Paul Pogba is one of the most celebrated athletes on the planet. He's a french national.
There's many reasons to scream racism, even systemic racism, this isn't one.
But kane didn't miss training, has it not now been confirmed by the player that he returned when planned and didn't refuse to train and with the club and the manager keeping tight lipped on the situation than the media rumour that he deliberately missed training is just to fit the narrative?
Before this summer kane has been a model professional and an outstanding player for spurs than earns him some grace in these matters.
Pogba has been a pain in the arse with his constant flirting with other clubs and lets be honest he hasn't played to anywhere near his potential in that time that means he doesn't get the same grace.
Is this post a joke?
Yeah, And he didn't play his first game because he ate too much butter chicken the previous day.
Something doesn't seem right about this version of the events though, it should have been clearly stated by the manager or some kind of representative of the club, instead they let the rumors circle for days before it was brought up that this was all part of the plan. Just doesn't smell right.
Kane was flirting with other clubs all summer. He didn't show up for training, and neither his club nor manager have dispelled the notion that he refused to show up. Why would the club need to be "tight lipped" about it if he didn't train for some innocuous reason like self-isolation?
You can be famous and still be a target of systemic racism. Loads of famous and celebrated black athletes talk about how racism affected them.
It's not even a controversial statement.
I'm basing that comment on this. That's how the government defines libel.
https://www.hse.gov.uk/enforce/enforcementguide/court/reporting-defamation.htm
The defendant is required to prove serious harm to their reputation caused by the untrue statement. That's pretty hard to prove. It doesn't take being a qualified solicitor to know that.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/337408bc-8d02-11e9-a24d-b42f641eca37
Well I’ll leave that one up to the gaffer. I suspect no chances is better than a small chance
Unless Souness has become a business, I think you need to look at that test again.
Ok I think you misunderstood me a bit. I said that system racism exists, and its even worth talking about. Pundits being hypocrites is not systemic racism.
Graeme Souness giving Paul Pogba a hard time is not Graeme souness reacting to Paul Pogba over his ethnic origin, and going down that route is frankly exhausting to have to witness, because you make any form of criticism, fair or unfair (in Pogbas case, very oten unfair) about something it's not, and when you overstimulate a issue, people tend to get very tired of it. The boy who cried wolf is a simple and tried anecdote that fits well in this incident. You're shouting out for something that isn't there, and now we have to spend energy weighing this claim..
My point is: If you have to look really hard to find something, your energy is better spent somewhere else. Unless you're looking for a good time, then keep looking.
There's also the time Sky had to apologize on his behalf for accusing Lamela of 'Latin behavior' after getting Martial sent off last season when Spurs beat united 1-6 at OT.
What Lamela did was inexcusable. Souness didn't need to attach his behavior to an entire ethnicity and culture. This is the Hallmark of racist ideas, attacking the group and not the individual because in the mind of a bigot the individual's behavior is always representative of the ethnicity they belong to. It was a clear racial macroagression whether he realized it or not. The same can be said of anyone dismissing this type of behavior or those silencing the ones calling it out sensibly
I think it's both
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Do you actually think he was ever going to play?
What we do know is City are in for him and if they stump up the cash he will be a city player by the end of the transfer window. With that going on and the media circus and fan reaction to the alleged missed training do you think he would be in the right head space to play the first game of the season at home against City?
Give over, he very clearly did miss training and didn't turn up to the camp when he was supposed to.
The fact the club haven't hung him out to dry because they want to maintain a relationship with a player who may end up staying and similar for his statement so he doesn't burn all bridges with the fans doesn't take away from that fact.
Do you really think if something similar happened with a player who genuinely wasn't doing that, that the club and player wouldn't come out immediately to kibosh the rumours?
Missing training, conducting interviews while the season is still ongoing to try to sell yourself on the cheap and not turning up to the pre season camp is inexcusable.
What has Harry kane got to gain from not turning up to training? It won't help him to force a move and if that was his ploy than why has he now returned to training, surely he would still be refusing until he was sold? All it does is tarnish his professional and loyal reputation.
I admit the interview and setting his own price was poor.
But refusing to train to force a move is not only completely put of character but also seemingly pointless.
The simple fact is if someone comes in with a big enough bid for Harry kane than he will be sold that has been the case all summer and refusing to train doesn't make a blind bit of difference, there is no logic behind it.
Yeah, that's fair. Apologies, I didn't notice you were staff. Don't wanna sound like I'm telling you how to run the site.
No idea what this means or how it is relevant.
I don't think you have to look that hard to find evidence of Souness saying racialised stuff about pogba. And definitely that clip of him shutting down Micah Richards for trying to discuss that highlighted it for me. But i get how you might see it different.
Kane caused that though. It must be really frustrating being a Spurs fan and hearing loads of neutrals taking Kane's side after he's pissed all over the club, based mainly on the fact that Gary Neville says he's a professional and therefore everything must be the club's fault for not letting go of their star asset for cheap. They know Kane, they loved him up until the Neville interview, and now they have to listen to fans of other clubs telling them that actually Kane is the wronged party here.
He gains nothing, It was a childish mistake on his part.
He probably thought people will take his side and Levy would come down on his asking price.
Didn't happen. And his reputation was getting affected.
What does he have to gain? An attempt to force Levy to sell below the price we are willing to accept. Which is why players tend to do this.
If Man City had bid 150-200 million, we'd outright refused to listen, even with potentially higher offers, then I'd understand his actions. I wouldn't condone but I'd understand. What he's done (or been advised to do by his imbecile of a brother) makes little sense.
He's returned for the same reason Berbatov did, same reason Modric did and played a whole season after not getting his initial move. Because they've made their point and need to move on. I also reckon Kane likes being liked and didn't like the criticism he was getting from Spurs fans or from some elements of the media. Realised he made a mistake and now needs to come back to some extent. I've got a sneaking suspicion that Mr play at all costs may have a few niggling injuries in the next couple of weeks though.
Man City have made their bed by paying 100 million for Graelish. Pay up. Or move on.
Yeah, probably the most undeserved promotion everOh you got the final like!
Basically, if you are a business then, in order to show serious harm, you need to show a significant financial loss. For individuals, you don’t. Given that a statement that someone is a racist is inherently damaging, and the Caf is a reasonably sized and publicly available website, I’d have thought it would be fairly easy for someone to meet the test if there was a clear statement that they were a racist.
I don't think it's easy at all to explain how someone calling you a racist on a fan forum harms you in a significant way. It's entirely not enough for Graeme Souness just to say 'well my reputation was harmed cos GreenFieldsGoldenBarley called me a racist on redcafe.net. Where's my money?' You need to explain how your finances or your health were directly affected by that.
Otherwise you'd have people being taken to court every time they called anyone an idiot. You wouldn't be able to talk about racism at all without being sued. That's what the financial times article is about - a precedent has been set where the burden of proof in libel cases is on the prosecution to prove exactly how, and to what financial value, the accuser has been harmed.
Why is "before this Summer" the cut off?
You trust Kane making statements but he "won’t go into the specifics of the situation". Have you ever given the same weight to one of Pogbas statements? He has done similar.
I just explained that you don’t need to show your finances are affected, nor do you need to show your health was affected. I can’t access the FT link but If it is to the Supreme Court decision a couple of years ago, then it does not say that. Whilst the change in law does make defamation claims more difficult, a reputable busy website allowing obviously harmful comments (such as a statement someone is racist) would still be running a substantial risk.
I mean, this post doesn't make sense? Do you think racism stops once you become an athlete?
Did you see what happened to the celebrated Black England players after the Euros or have you been living under a rock?
Sourness is being incredibly childish about a player who coincidentally or not is black, confident & proud. This weekend his narrative could have been more in lines of ‘if Greenwood & Pogba start producing this kind of performances this season’. But no, he chose to poo poo Pogba yet once again (despite a match winning performance). Micah Richards’ reaction said it all, and he’s even as ABU as it gets!!!! So after all these years of Souness’ often irrational bashing of Pogba in the media what else are we supposed to think? What is Sourness’ grudge against Pogba then?!?! It smells very much like the kind of bigotry I’ve unfortunately have had the displeasure of experiencing from close by myself.
You're missing the point. Graeme Souness is talking to Paul Pogba the athlete from France, not Paul Pogba from Africa like the poster I replied to suggested.
I definitely don't agree with that. We have been talking about why Souness treats a famous black athlete differently to a famous white athlete. It's clearly not ridiculous to say that it is connected to race.
Afraid it’s happened too long and too often not to warrant some kind of scrutiny. His actions are questionable and should be looked into. For the good of equally in the sport and the wider society.
What gets me about Souness’s “you expect that from a 100m player” is that only 7 players have had 4 assists in a PL match since the PL started. It’s bloody rare because it’s not expected.