Graeme Sourness | Retires from “punditry”

[golden_blunder]

The majority of people didn't say Souness is a racist, people have pointed out that the language and the direction the criticism has taken from various people in the media, which includes Souness, has an element of underlying codified racisim to it.

This post has summerized it pretty well:


If pundits have double standards in their critism and their criticism is full of questionable substance than it's completely normal for people to assess the potential factor of racism. Yet when done, there's always the same crowd - as exhibited in this thread - that shouts "Don't bring racism into it" "Don't play the race card". Quite telling, really.

I was addressing 1 poster in that interaction

Look, you may have missed what I’m trying to lead people too. You outright call a person a racist that person can take a libel action if they are aware of it. That libel falls against Redcafe because we didn’t address it. So I’m addressing it. I actually feel like removing this whole thread now because people are jumping in with 2 feet everywhere. Again it’s not you guys that get the threatening letters, it’s the board

 

[shaky]

The majority of people didn't say Souness is a racist, people have pointed out that the language and the direction the criticism has taken from various people in the media, which includes Souness, has an element of underlying codified racisim to it.

This post has summerized it pretty well:


If pundits have double standards in their critism and their criticism is full of questionable substance than it's completely normal for people to assess the potential factor of racism. Yet when done, there's always the same crowd - as exhibited in this thread - that shouts "Don't bring racism into it" "Don't play the race card". Quite telling, really.

Does Souness have double standards in his criticism? If so, does he often apply those standards differently to black players when compared to white players, or are you just picking one specific black player he is criticising and assuming that Pogba is black, ergo racism, rather than Souness just having a pathological hatred of all things Man Utd. I'm no fan of Souness, but the logic of "he could possibly be racist, so lets just call him racist" is troublesome. The fact that you think it's "quite telling" when people suggest not playing the racism card without clear proof, is quite telling.

 

[Adcuth]

Look I’ve just started in this thread. You accused someone of being racist. I asked you to teach me because i thought id missed something. You then said you were joking which I accepted. It’s you dragging this out, not me.

how can I treat anything about racism as a joke? Every time we have to look into it. So I’m not taking it lightly no

Saying that I was actually accusing him is not accepting that you knew I was joking is it. Now I'm happy to leave it as there is actually no reason for the back and forth. Its great that racism and comments of that nature aren't taken lightly and we all appreciate that. But it was obvious that I wasn't accusing him with what I said.

 

[DWelbz19]

Yesterday he was saying Pogba has never given interviews to say his agent speaking on his behalf is out of order. So that's the standard he sets for Pogba. Agent says Pogba would be open to leaving United. Pogba must shoot it down explicitly or the non-stop campaign to attack him and vilify him is justified.

Meanwhile, as you say, Kane, the player himself, does an hour long interview with Neville about how he wants to leave and how much he could potentially be worth in the current market. That guy is a saint to Neville though, and he leaps to his defence against anyone who dares to criticise what Kane is doing.

The thing that irks me most about the Pogba stuff — off the pitch, he really is one of the most down to earth players there is. For the amount of flack he catches, he's genuinely never had any scandals.

Never been caught cheating; getting caught drunk/partying; speeding/crashing his car; tax scandals etc etc — nothing! He has a mouthy agent who actually hasn’t said anything since December last year, but he must be the constant source of criticism. It’s bizarre.

 

[golden_blunder]

Saying that I was actually accusing him is not accepting that you knew I was joking is it. Now I'm happy to leave it as there is actually no reason for the back and forth. Its great that racism and comments of that nature aren't taken lightly and we all appreciate that. But it was obvious that I wasn't accusing him with what I said.

I’ll say one last thing. As a stand alone post it wasn’t obvious to me that it was a joke initially but I was happy to take your word for it. Anyway I’m done on that now.

 

[Adcuth]

The thing that irks me most about the Pogba stuff — off the pitch, he really is one of the most down to earth players there is. For the amount of flack he catches, he's genuinely never had any scandals.

Never been caught cheating; getting caught drunk/partying; speeding/crashing his car; tax scandals etc etc — nothing! He has a mouthy agent who actually hasn’t said anything since December last year, but he must be the constant source of criticism. It’s bizarre.

Balotelli got less shit than pogba. Imagine that

 

[golden_blunder]

Does Souness have double standards in his criticism? If so, does he often apply those standards differently to black players when compared to white players, or are you just picking one specific black player he is criticising and assuming that Pogba is black, ergo racism, rather than Souness just having a pathological hatred of all things Man Utd. I'm no fan of Souness, but the logic of "he could possibly be racist, so lets just call him racist" is troublesome. The fact that you think it's "quite telling" when people suggest not playing the racism card without clear proof, is quite telling.

The same Souness who brought mark walters to Rangers and all that was sure to entail at the time

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/football/42371953.amp

He also brought Mo Johnston, a catholic to Rangers, and who had already played for Celtic. Unheard off at the time.

certainly changed a lot for the good, or at least his actions led to change. Souness.

that being said he does seem to have a huge ego which for some reason has taken a disliking to Pogba and his ego isn’t allowing him to change his mind

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The thing that irks me most about the Pogba stuff — off the pitch, he really is one of the most down to earth players there is. For the amount of flack he catches, he's genuinely never had any scandals.

Never been caught cheating; getting caught drunk/partying; speeding/crashing his car; tax scandals etc etc — nothing! He has a mouthy agent who actually hasn’t said anything since December last year, but he must be the constant source of criticism. It’s bizarre.

It’s not bizarre at all. He’s the most expensive signing ever at the most famous club in the league. He’s a charismatic, bigger than life character who is handsome, looks good in photographs and active on social media. And his agent keeps mouthing off about how he needs to find a new club. Hard to think of a more obvious scenario to keep a player as a constant source of tabloid content. Whether that content is mainly criticism or praise will depend on how well he’s playing at the time.

 

[Adcuth]

The same Souness who brought mark walters to Rangers and all that was sure to entail at the time

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/football/42371953.amp

He also brought Mo Johnston, a catholic to Rangers, and who had already played for Celtic. Unheard off at the time.

certainly changed a lot for the good, or at least his actions led to change. Souness.

that being said he does seem to have a huge ego which for some reason has taken a disliking to Pogba and his ego isn’t allowing him to change his mind

Maybe he just likes to incite hate and cause controversy. We all remember his Turkish flag trick.

 

[golden_blunder]

Maybe he just likes to incite hate and cause controversy. We all remember his Turkish flag trick.

 

[Deleted 112447]

It’s not bizarre at all. He’s the most expensive signing ever at the most famous club in the league. He’s a charismatic, bigger than life character who is handsome, looks good in photographs and active on social media. And his agent keeps mouthing off about how he needs to find a new club. Hard to think of a more obvious scenario to keep a player as a constant source of tabloid content. Whether that content is mainly criticism or praise will depend on how well he’s playing at the time.

He's had very good seasons, making team of the year and still had the same BS thrown at him. I agree with your points except I think it's more to do with the team performance more then the player alone.

 

[Adcuth]

Seemed like a good idea oh fair enough then. I wouldn't even be touching the flag in that game. fecking nuts them lot

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He's had very good seasons, making team of the year and still had the same BS thrown at him. I agree with your points except I think it's more to do with the team performance more then the player alone.

Team performances obviously matters too. But it’s no surprise that the most expensive player, whose agent repeatedly makes inflammatory statements, is the lightning rod for criticism when the team is playing poorly.

 

[pass.pass.pass]

I don't even know where this agenda started for Souness. From the minute Pogba came back to this league, he's had it out for him. It's so bizarre that he's kept it up for so many years.

Indeed. Such lack of objectivity and ad hominem alone should be enough for him to lose his job at Sky.

Yesterday he was saying Pogba has never given interviews to say his agent speaking on his behalf is out of order. So that's the standard he sets for Pogba. Agent says Pogba would be open to leaving United. Pogba must shoot it down explicitly or the non-stop campaign to attack him and vilify him is justified.

Meanwhile, as you say, Kane, the player himself, does an hour long interview with Neville about how he wants to leave and how much he could potentially be worth in the current market. That guy is a saint to Neville though, and he leaps to his defence against anyone who dares to criticise what Kane is doing.

It's unbelievable, really. When has a player ever come out publicly against his own agent? Neville never asked Rooney to quash the rumors in 2010 about joining City when they were both at the club.

At best, both Souness and Neville are guilty of confusing their opinion of Pobga as a player with the way he should conduct himself off the pitch. At worst, they are both nakedly xenophobic.

 

[Sassy Colin]

I absolutely can not believe the “soapification” of football. Who gives an absolute shit when Souness has to think about anything? He’s clearly playing up to it now.

Pundits shouldn’t have a personality and they shouldn’t be spoken about in 100+ page threads. Just watch the footy and ignore everything else. Please.

Thanks Graeme, it's only in the early 70s pages.

 

[NotThatSoph]

I was addressing 1 poster in that interaction

Look, you may have missed what I’m trying to lead people too. You outright call a person a racist that person can take a libel action if they are aware of it. That libel falls against Redcafe because we didn’t address it. So I’m addressing it. I actually feel like removing this whole thread now because people are jumping in with 2 feet everywhere. Again it’s not you guys that get the threatening letters, it’s the board

There is literally zero risk for Redcafe losing a libel case because someone called Souness a racist. No risk at all.

 

[golden_blunder]

There is literally zero risk for Redcafe losing a libel case because someone called Souness a racist. No risk at all.

Well, since you’re not the owner, we will take our directions from him thanks and we’d rather not take the risk because someone wants to call someone else names

 

[NotThatSoph]

Well, since you’re not the owner, we will take our directions from him thanks and we’d rather not take the risk because someone wants to call someone else names

That's obviously up to Niall and the staff, and I'm sure even a hypothetical frivilous complaint can be an issue for someone without legal or financial resources.

There's still zero chance of actually losing a case, though. As in, you're about as likely to lose a case like that as Qanon is of getting Trump reinstated without a coup.

Has Niall said that calling public people racist (or other names) is off limits?

 

[golden_blunder]

That's obviously up to Niall and the staff, and I'm sure even a hypothetical frivilous complaint can be an issue for someone without legal or financial resources.

There's still zero chance of actually losing a case, though. As in, you're about as likely to lose a case like that as Qanon is of getting Trump reinstated without a coup.

Has Niall said that calling public people racist (or other names) is off limits?

No specific examples but anything that could come back to the board is out. Hence why the general forum is private. Whether it does or it doesn’t we aren’t prepared to run the risk and we’d ask our members to respect that

 

[NotThatSoph]

No specific examples but anything that could come back to the board is out. Hence why the general forum is private. Whether it does or it doesn’t we aren’t prepared to run the risk and we’d ask our members to respect that

Alright, better hope James Corden doesn't read the caf, then.

 

[big rons sovereign]

That's bizarre. Carragher jumps in and says " you're not defending Pogba, are you?". Mckola says no and then Carragher goes off in a rant about hypocrisy amongst fans. Mckola even says two or three more times that he's not defending Pogba.

And then Neville trying to make out Spurs last game of the season wasn't important because he talked himself into a corner.

Carragher is a bonafide bellend. Too thick to mount an actual argument so he starts yelling.

 

[big rons sovereign]

Alright, better hope James Corden doesn't read the caf, then.

Christ, there'd be nobody to back him.

 

[Sayros]

No specific examples but anything that could come back to the board is out. Hence why the general forum is private. Whether it does or it doesn’t we aren’t prepared to run the risk and we’d ask our members to respect that

I think that's fair enough, you can question something but to outright label someone one of the worst things you can call them, especially since recently it seems very easy for people to just label someone a racist, I think a little restraint is not out of order.

 

[Tom Cato]

I wish the club would allow Pogba to not turn up for training just 1 day just so they could troll Souness and the British media in general.

The sun may catch fire over the hypcoricy

 

[Winzaghi]

Even if Pogba said he wanted to leave, why is that a crime? You don't have to want to stay at a team, as long as you're being professional and still putting in the work on the pitch which he obviously is. That's not anywhere near in the same realm as refusing to go to training because you want to leave. And that's on top of saying you want to leave. The treatment of the 2 situations by the media is absolutely baffling and shameful. I wish someone could explain the disparity in reactions. The only indication is that it's either xenophobia or racism, or both.

 

[Tom Cato]

It's disgraceful,

I unfortunately expect it with that racist cnut Souness but Gary should also be ashamed of himself, talks all the talk about anti racism etc but imagine there wasn't a man of colour on the pundit lineup tonight to at least question this constant bias, it would just continue to fuel the racist bullsh*t Pogba has to endure constantly as do so many black players, Sky also can go f*** themselves constantly getting David Jones to stop any form of open discussion when it enters the realm of racism but as long as they put BLM banners on their shows and create a few ads it's fine.

I am no fan of Pogba allowing his rat bag agent continuously speak about him moving to other clubs but professional pundits, media outlets etc or anyone for that matter trying to convince us that what Kane is doing is fine and not the same as the Pogba situation when in truth it's 10x worse is down to racism, unconscious racism whatever you want to call it it doesn't matter,

Don't ever be fooled by Sky and all their anti racism crap until they start condemning people like Souness who is allowed to continue to have an agenda against Paul Pogba and allow it as it fuels more conversation through social media, gets more clicks etc but what they don't see first hand is that it vindicates the racists who are also spewing abuse at Pogba for the same thing,

Anyway rant over but I am sick of this same crap on my TV Screen every week, sack Souness and get more people of colour on our screens and allow more open discussions on racism, until then shove your hollow BLM adverts up your a*se SKY we all know you don't really give a crap.

I'm sorry but why would this be about skincolor?

 

[big rons sovereign]

I think that's fair enough, you can question something but to outright label someone one of the worst things you can call them, especially since recently it seems very easy for people to just label someone a racist, I think a little restraint is not out of order.

I couldn't say if he's racist or not, I think a lot of his issues with pogba is more to do with being a midfielder himself. He was a no nonsense tough guy, whereas pogba can come across as lazy and a bit soft.
I dare say it's frustrating to watch somebody with so much skill and ability not apply themselves.

We've all sat tearing our hair out as he tries yet another pointless drag back in midfield, only to be dispossessed.

Or maybe he is just a mean old bastard.

 

[GreenFieldsGoldenBarley]

I think that's fair enough, you can question something but to outright label someone one of the worst things you can call them, especially since recently it seems very easy for people to just label someone a racist, I think a little restraint is not out of order.

This is why I prefer to say unconscious bias instead of racism (even though I actually think they're the same thing). Everyone has those moments of making assumptions about people based on the colour of their skin. Souness refers to old racist ideas when he talks about why he doesn't like Pogba (he's arrogant, he should be stronger, he's an egotist who spends his time worrying about his hair when he should be thinking about football, he's stupid). Mostly this isn't based on anything that Pogba has actually done, so it stands out that Souness just seems to be making up stuff on national TV to justify his dislike for Pogba.

Whether or not Souness actually hates all Black people or if these ideas are just in his subconscious, he regularly uses his time on national TV to repeat old racist stereotypes. Racism is not just using racial slurs. It's peobably more pernicious when it's about repeatedly casting aspersions on the character and professionalism of Black people.

If we want to make the UK a less racist place we need to stop acting like it's a bigger deal to accuse someone of racism than it is to say racist ideas. I think we all have racist thoughts, and when we're confronted by the racism in the things we say (especially by black/Asian people who experienced it as racism) we need to take that seriously rather than getting defensive about being called racist.

I'm sorry but why would this be about skincolor?

It's about skin colour because it's about how the media treats black people from Africa differently to white people from England.

 

[RUCK4444]

I wish the club would allow Pogba to not turn up for training just 1 day just so they could troll Souness and the British media in general.

The sun may catch fire over the hypcoricy

Can you imagine Souness and Neville, they would be calling him all sorts and would claim it’s totally different to Kane doing the same.

Hypocrites the lot of them.

 

[big rons sovereign]

This is why I prefer to say unconscious bias instead of racism (even though I actually think they're the same thing). Everyone has those moments of making assumptions about people based on the colour of their skin. Souness refers to old racist ideas when he talks about why he doesn't like Pogba (he's arrogant, he should be stronger, he's an egotist who spends his time worrying about his hair when he should be thinking about football, he's stupid). Mostly this isn't based on anything that Pogba has actually done, so it stands out that Souness just seems to be making up stuff on national TV to justify his dislike for Pogba.

Whether or not Souness actually hates all Black people or if these ideas are just in his subconscious, he regularly uses his time on national TV to repeat old racist stereotypes. Racism is not just using racial slurs. It's peobably more pernicious when it's about repeatedly casting aspersions on the character and professionalism of Black people.

If we want to make the UK a less racist place we need to stop acting like it's a bigger deal to accuse someone of racism than it is to say racist ideas. I think we all have racist thoughts, and when we're confronted by the racism in the things we say (especially by black/Asian people who experienced it as racism) we need to take that seriously rather than getting defensive about being called racist.



It's about skin colour because it's about how the media treats black people from Africa differently to white people from England.

So, what you're saying is he's not racist but he's racist unconsciously to suit your idea that he's racist?

Isn't that the flipside to "I'm not racist but".....

Also, pogba isnt Pogba french?

 

[DoomSlayer]

I'm all for making fun of Souness because of how much he dislikes us and Pogba in particular, but people are taking it to a whole different level with no proof. Mourinho clearly dislikes Pogba to this day, is he a racist as well? Yaya Toure called Guardiola a racist, so he must be one too.

Everyone in football is hypocritical to some extent, it just depends on your affiliations.

 

[Adcuth]

There is literally zero risk for Redcafe losing a libel case because someone called Souness a racist. No risk at all.

Wouldn't he have to read it to know what was said? Hes deffo not going through 70 pages on the caf. I struggle doing that at times.

 

[laughtersassassin]

At the very least he has a strange dislike, distain and tendency to target and belittle someone who he has supposedly never spoke to. Often Slagged him off, Called him a dope etc etc.

So at the very least he is an asshole.

There is no legitimate explainable reason that makes how he treats him ok. He is insanely unprofessional but what's worse is he is not like that for others.

Again another indication that his motives are in bad taste.

 

[laughtersassassin]

I'm all for making fun of Souness because of how much he dislikes us and Pogba in particular, but people are taking it to a whole different level with no proof. Mourinho clearly dislikes Pogba to this day, is he a racist as well? Yaya Toure called Guardiola a racist, so he must be one too.

Everyone in football is hypocritical to some extent, it just depends on your affiliations.

Sounness has never met Pogba.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Sourness is a twat no doubt about it but suggestions of racism? Its bordering on slander and I'm sick of everything being about race and then the racism card getting played even when there is no evidence of racism.

The reason why pogba has being consistently criticised for the past years is because he has been wildly inconsistent on the pitch in that time and indirectly via his agent pretty much whored himself out to.anyone that would take him oh and he is running is contract down to get move.

Kane as been a model professional for 5 years consistently performed for club and country hasn't whored himself out in that time and signed a long term contract. Its only this summer that he has openly come out and said he would interested in a move if someone come in for him and there has been bids but clearly noone has bid enough yet. The fact is we don't know why he wasn't training when he should of been but noone other than rumours are suggesting it was a refusal to turn up. So the only reason you can critizce kane is for his interview with G nev. Whereas pogba can and should be criticised for numerous on the pitch and off the pitch incidents.

Kane has missed training. Said in a media interview he could leave. Model professional. FFS.

Funny how you're willing to dismiss criticism of Kane as rumours. I wonder if you would do the same for Pogba or just jump on the bandwagon...

 

[golden_blunder]

I think that's fair enough, you can question something but to outright label someone one of the worst things you can call them, especially since recently it seems very easy for people to just label someone a racist, I think a little restraint is not out of order.

Thank you

 

[GreenFieldsGoldenBarley]

So, what you're saying is he's not racist but he's racist unconsciously to suit your idea that he's racist?

Isn't that the flipside to "I'm not racist but".....

Also, pogba isnt Pogba french?

No, I'm saying that nobody has a clue what racism is. People act like racism is just throwing around the n word, and that you can't accuse someone of racism unless you can provide a video of them using the n word.

Racism is structural and you don't fix it by jailing/shaming people for using the n word. You fix it by recognising when you and others are using racist stereotypes to come to your opinions. If people get all defensive when someone points out that they don't have a reason for disliking someone, and that instead of having a reason they're repeating racist stereotypes, that is a big problem in the fight against racism.

Basically, it's better to respond to someone suggesting that there's racism in what you said with "what was it that I said that made them uncomfortable" than "how dare you accuse me of racism!"

His family is from Gabon and 2 of his brothers were born in Guinea. This stuff matters - hence the history of racial disharmony in the French squad.

 

[golden_blunder]

Wouldn't he have to read it to know what was said? Hes deffo not going through 70 pages on the caf. I struggle doing that at times.

Presumably he’d employ someone to do it. Honestly you guys have no idea of the letters Niall has received in the past, some nasty (in legal terms). We just ain’t risking it. If you all feel the need to label someone in that way please use a different platform!

 

[Sayros]

No, I'm saying that nobody has a clue what racism is. People act like racism is just throwing around the n word, and that you can't accuse someone of racism unless you can provide a video of them using the n word.

Racism is structural and you don't fix it by jailing/shaming people for using the n word. You fix it by recognising when you and others are using racist stereotypes to come to your opinions. If people get all defensive when someone points out that they don't have a reason for disliking someone, and that instead of having a reason they're repeating racist stereotypes, that is a big problem in the fight against racism.

Basically, it's better to respond to someone suggesting that there's racism in what you said with "what was it that I said that made them uncomfortable" than "how dare you accuse me of racism!"

His family is from Gabon and 2 of his brothers were born in Guinea. This stuff matters - hence the history of racial disharmony in the French squad.

Not sure what racial disharmony you refer to in the French squad, that's never really been any issues as far as I know but I'd like to be educated if that's wrong. There may be racial issues in France, the country, but the squad? Not really something I've seen.

 

[DoomSlayer]

Sounness has never met Pogba.

How can you even take Souness seriously? He dislikes everything about Manchester United, every time I've seen him commentating one of our games, it pains him to speak about us if we are doing well.

Souness is just bitter and being a twat when it comes to our club, Pogba has always been the target to showcase our failure, because to this day he is our most expensive signing and most famous player. I'd like nothing more than to see Souness be less involved in the analytical coverage of football, but it has nothing to do with him being racist.